47 Frazer truck

[kfnut]

I see the 47 Frazer truck is for sale on EBAY listed as " 1947 FORD " .

[j762538]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-Ford-Other-/112591911158?hash=item1a370038f6:g:e6oAAOSw~G1Z176l&vxp=mtr

[Gordie]

Of all of the home made pick-up conversions made out of wrecked Kaisers and Frazers this is one of the better ones and would be nice if restored.  I have the original of the letter he is referring to but it  does not concern this vehicle but one made in San Diego out of a wrecked Kaiser.  The letter was sent by Henry Kaiser Jr. who was in charge of the Long Beach CA assembly plant
to Edgar Kaiser in Willow Run along with about seven professionally made photos of the conversion for Edgar's  interest in November 1948.  Earl Muntz was long gone from Kaiser-Frazer by that time.

[Roadmaster49]

Is Bill Goodwin in the KFOCI club?  Seems to be interested. 

It might be a fun KF project if I had several already and just did not see any others out there, but my 1st thought was this is just another KF project getting passed around without getting restored.  Somebody restore it and show it!

For that to happen, the car needs practically given away to a KF member with a good shop and parts connections.  I would think, just off hand, that Traveler/Vagabond rear hatch parts could be adapted to make a tail gate, which for me is a "must have."

I can't see Muntz not including a tail gate if he is trying to sell the Kaisers on a pick up concept.  But I must be wrong. 

Someone made a floor shifter I see, so there would be modification back from floor shift.  Overall a fun possible project that with provenance I would expect would be welcomed and talked about at a National meet.  Sure, it's not original and all, but rather than some back yard cut and paste p/u, this one has that possible connection to the period. 

[Roadmaster49]

I now wonder if the fact Muntz made a pickup concept out of a FRAZER might have not sat well with the KAISERS.

[r1lark]

In June of this year, frankies frazer  posted on the long Frazer truck thread that he had sold this truck to someone in California. The eBay ad says the location of the truck is New Mexico. Wonder how many times its changed hands since frankies frazer sold it?

I asked the eBay seller thru eBay: do you have written documentation that supports this being one of the three Muntz trucks. Following is the reply:
What we have are the documents from Gary Mansel's truck in the ACAA museum. He has complete records and build tag from Betts and Curtis from California. The three trucks were taken straight off the assembly line at the same time and this trucks vIN number is two numbers off his. It also has the date (sept 1947) etched into the firewall over the build paint job. The truck was originally dove grey off the line but painted blue when built to a pickup. There is also proof of ownership from the Muntz dealership the first three years of its life. It wasn't tagged or titled until 1950 and the original title states it is a pickup.
Now, there has been plenty of controversy over this truck. I can go over all docs on the truck and you can decide. It is even famous because of all the controversy over it but the docs clearly shows it is one of the trucks. If you get serious I can also get you in contact with Gary and the museum.

It's cool, but I don't see myself being a serious buyer -- even after I re-read thru the entire 17 pages again of the 'Frazer Truck' thread. 

[Gordie]

In June of this year, frankies frazer  posted on the long Frazer truck thread that he had sold this truck to someone in California. The eBay ad says the location of the truck is New Mexico. Wonder how many times its changed hands since frankies frazer sold it?

I asked the eBay seller thru eBay: do you have written documentation that supports this being one of the three Muntz trucks. Following is the reply:
What we have are the documents from Gary Mansel's truck in the ACAA museum. He has complete records and build tag from Betts and Curtis from California. The three trucks were taken straight off the assembly line at the same time and this trucks vIN number is two numbers off his. It also has the date (sept 1947) etched into the firewall over the build paint job. The truck was originally dove grey off the line but painted blue when built to a pickup. There is also proof of ownership from the Muntz dealership the first three years of its life. It wasn't tagged or titled until 1950 and the original title states it is a pickup.
Now, there has been plenty of controversy over this truck. I can go over all docs on the truck and you can decide. It is even famous because of all the controversy over it but the docs clearly shows it is one of the trucks. If you get serious I can also get you in contact with Gary and the museum.

It's cool, but I don't see myself being a serious buyer -- even after I re-read thru the entire 17 pages again of the 'Frazer Truck' thread. 

There were several Kaisers converted into pick-ups that have survived and none seem to be identical which would have been the case if the factory or someone modified them at the same time.  Earl Muntz sold his distributorships late in 1947 and was gone from K-F by 1948.  If these were made by Muntz it is interesting that there is no record of them being built or no photos of the conversions in progress or after  completion.  No records of them being sold or advertised for sale.  Where the story started I have no clue but there is just not any documentation other than hearsay.  How could the serial numbers be two numbers apart when one vehicle was a Kaiser and the other a Frazer?  Anyway I hope that it finds a good home and gets restored.

[Roadmaster49]

Thanks Paul.  I will go check out that thread rather than ask a million questions or comment further.  I just don't know enough. 

Gordie's input is also helpful.  I can only say about the Muntz connection is that he may have had the cars after his relationship with KF ended. A possibility.  That lead to a question, why would Muntz get out of a KF relationship so early in the company's history? 

Again, I don't know enough but I guess what Gordie is implying is that on the assembly line at Willow Run, cars were made in batches, i.e. several Frazers, then Kaisers and it would be hard to believe that the timing would comply with this sellers statement.

The seller keeps implying "you be the judge" as well.  Therefore, documentation is sketchy, we then must revert to simply enjoyment of possible ownership and restoration.  Any provenance beyond that would be icing on the cake. 

[thej63]

Just went and read the full 17 pages. All I saw were a lot of claims to have proof and promises to post images of said proof but nothing ever actually provided.

Considering the ebay listing is made up of every photo that frankie posted during that 17 page post, I'm inclined to believe that the "california sale" fell through and he's now throwing the truck on ebay.

It's really neat looking, I'd love to see it fixed up as it's just a cool truck but I'd never drop 4k on it. Granted if he can get that for it, good for him and a decent flip considering he bought it for 1.7k.

[Roadmaster49]

Auction just ran out with no bids.  That Bill Goodwin wanted it bad, maybe he makes an off ebay offer and "Frankie" sells it. I agree with Gordie there is not enough provenance or records to verify origin but the VIN is verifiable and this is a historically significant car, as it was an early Frazer professionally converted to a pick up or flower car as opposed to a hack job.   

I was not aware of what "Frankie" paid for it - the $1700.  That's about right.  Although those grays that the Frazer was originally painted are not my favorite, I would still restore the truck to that original color.  In my mind, I would put a dealer name on the doors/back like the Kaiser Jack and others posted.  Kind of make it a tribute truck to that dealer Betts-? or some other out of business KF dealer.  That is what many were used for - parts hauling and publicity for that dealer. 

[kfnut]

It is relisted on EBAY . A LITTLE higher price now .

[Mr Manhattan]

Who cares if it is a Muntz truck or not. Its still a cool looking vehicle and at the least it deserves to be gotten running and driven .Rather than just sitting and rotting an being sold to different people..  You can argue all day if it is a Muntz truck or not . But at the end of the day it is a cool Fraser truck.

[Roadmaster49]

Who cares if it is a Muntz truck or not. Its still a cool looking vehicle and at the least it deserves to be gotten running and driven .Rather than just sitting and rotting an being sold to different people..  You can argue all day if it is a Muntz truck or not . But at the end of the day it is a cool Fraser truck.

I agree it makes no difference.  It was clearly a well sorted early custom of a FRAZER and not a Kaiser Special, which piques my interest.  I also agree NO ONE is stepping up and restoring the darn thing. 

I find it interesting the Truck guy who joined the forum only for this reason - has not set foot back here since saying he sold it. 

[Roadmaster49]

It is relisted on EBAY . A LITTLE higher price now .

LITTLE higher price. You're funny.  That seller is fishing. Oh man, I don't like these sellers. NO RESERVE. Yea, cuz you priced it about 70% higher than your last over-priced auction.   He put it in FORD I think to get more eyeballs.