1949 Virginian For Sale

[Gordie]

That is not a bad price considering that the Virginians are hard tops and not many ever made.  You could not buy a rough one and restore it for twice what you  will have invested in this one.  If you do the engine detailing yourself you will save several hundred dollars and if the car runs good you will certainly enjoy it and if you sell your other '49 your investment won't be unreasonable.

[Roadmaster49]

I can't find the thread right off hand but I thought the last time we discussed this car it was determined the interior was correct and not very common.  The KFOC handbook lists Horizon Blue with trim code "2318 Havana Blue Stockholm & Beaumont Cloth" so there were some with clothe and not leather.
The trim code is not real clear in the pic of the tag but it looks like it could be 2318. The 231 is very clear but it's hard to tell if that last digit is a 3 or an 8.  Looks like a three but not definite. Handbook list 2318 but not 2313 so it's possible that interior is not out of the park.

Fid
My Polar Grey 1949 Virginian had cloth interior, not leather.  I would think the ratio for leather to cloth would be 50% or less for leather given that these cars were still Kaisers and expensive as is. 

[Roadmaster49]

Keep in mind that mine is just an opinion but $15,000 is high and sounds to me like they want to recoup paint and vinyl top costs.  They have not done anything else it appears. 

Remember the comment earlier about some "rot".  Make sure you check out HOW that was repaired. 

There is very little difference between a very nice 49 Kaiser and a 49 Virginian in terms of market density.  There are very very few KF guys ADDING to or adjusting their collections.  Most are getting out and wanting way too much for their cars to supplement their retirements. 

The rest of the collector world does not really care about Virginians.  These are cars where you have to start the narrative attached to the auction by explaining WHAT it is.  You don't have to do that with muscle cars or Corvettes, etc. 

The market is small and shrining for late 40's cars in general.  Don't worry about selling it to KF collectors - none will be interested when you go to sell.   It would have to appeal to someone on ebay.  That's about your only marketplace that puts national eyeballs in front of cars.   Then you "might" get lucky. 

If I were buying this Virginian, I would want to know what they paid for the car, or find out, then I want to see the receipts for the paint.  I am not paying them one cent more for "profit."   That said, I obviously would not go $15,000. 

There was a stunning, correct, low mileage Caribbean Coral Virginian for sale in Georgia for 3 years and I want to say it was $18,000.  It ended up selling for $12,500.  It was correct,  great popping colors (I like this color) and turn key, southern no rust car. 

There is no market demand for these cars.  That's different from saying people will look at the car and be curious but that wallet grabbing must have demand is not there. 

I'd go $12,000 tops subject to viewing receipts and adding up.  If you want to bail them out so they break even then it may be a win, as I often advocate for improving the gene pool and these folks have done it.  But to use an incorrect top material and stop at paint and top - means they are tapped out and know that anything more they put into it will be like dumping money down the drain. 

Proceed with caution. 

[JoeKeys2010]

Thanks. I’ll see if I can get a clear shot of the tag. I’m told Horizon Blue is uncommon for a 49 Virginian.

[Gordie]

I just sold my nice '48 Manhattan for $15,000.  Do you think that a seller is going to tell you how much he paid for his car?  The bottom of values for old cars is not here yet.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

When the Virginian was first announced to dealers, the car choices used cloth upholstery rather than leather (ALL DEALERS Confidential Bulletin 31, 1/31/49) The cars were listed as having different colors nylon top which were tied to the upholsterly and body paint colors and power windows were optional (otherwise window cranks like a sedan).  It was in mid-March 1949 that leather and vinyl interior combinations were announced to dealers ( ALL DEALERS Confidential Bulletin #34, 3/17/49).  Horizon blue with a cloth interior was still available to dealers in September 1949.

I really wish the information off the Body Information Tag (the one on the fire wall with info on colors, fabrics and equipment put on the car when built) was supplied by the seller.   I have found over my 45 years with the club that there are members in the club interested in a car offered for sale get turned off by not having this info to see how far (if at all) the car's current state has drifted from original build.   

[JoeKeys2010]

I own a 49 Caribbean Coral car that I put together including chrome, interior, paint, engine, tires and muffler so I know what it costs to build one. I’m not interested in selling mine. Not even for a Virginian. I love my old car, my grandparents had one just like it. My grandfather owned a KF Distributorship in Jacksonville Fl hence my connection to the cars.

I’m not a flipper and if I bought the car it would be for my enjoyment. Naturally I don’t want to over pay and I don’t want something that is so incorrect that any KF guy would pick it apart. If it’s a good value, close to correct then I’d want it. If it’s far off or a rust pot not interested. The engine is supposed to have been built which begs the question why not paint the motor. This guy owns 25+ cars and I noticed most do not have the engine compartment tricked out. I believe him to be honest and if he says he built the motor then he did.

I was offered 13k for my Kaiser locally and the guy says it’s a standing offer. That may be a good price but as I said I love the car and not interested in selling it. I’ve got a Ford I’ve had for 20 years so when I hold on to a car I hold on to it.

[JoeKeys2010]

So I have an appointment to see the car on a rack on a Monday and to drive it. I noticed the front and back seats do not have arm rests in the center and the front seat appears split. The seats fit the frame so I’m pretty sure the are correct but I thought Virginians had arm rests.

[KWZ]

Correct-they all had armrests

[JoeKeys2010]

I went to see the car again today. Here is what I saw:
1) it does have arm rests front and back
2) the car is under coated but the rockers look good. I can’t see repair
3) the current owner says he’s had the car 12 years and bought it from the original owner
4) the chrome would need to be plated or replaced with NOS to make the car pop
5) has tubeless bias ply tires
6) interior lights work when the door opens. Dash lights don’t.
7) horn doesn’t work
has new master cylinder and brake lines/hoses
9) wipers don’t work
10) some of the wide stainless is bent.
11) power windows and overdrive work.
12) all gages work

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Based on the tags in the photos Here's what I can come up with:

1949 Kaiser Virginian with Horizon Blue paint, Black Nylon top, Interior Raven a Blue Stockholm cloth with Beaumont cloth trim.  Transmission should be 3 speed manual with overdrive.  Car was built for domestic sale (rather than export) and equipped with Accessory Group #3

      Electric Clock
      Rear Seat Cigarette Lighter
      Chrome wheel discs (5)
      Tail Pipe Extension
      Cigarette Lighter in instrument panel
      2 Front, 3 Rear Bumper Guards
      Replacement Element Type Oil Filter
      Heavy Duty Air Cleaner
      Vacuum Booster Fuel Pump
      Spare Tire & Tube mounted on spare wheel

       Center arm rests front and rear, carpeted trunk compartment, Courtesy lights, Trunk Compartment lights, Front and Rear Floor Carpet, Directional Signals, Door Arm Rests, Tilt type Rear View Mirror were part of standard equipment items.  Factory installed options were:
      Overdrive, air conditioner/heater (conditioned air heater), White sidewall tires (5), power window lifts (penumtic) Rear Wheel Shields were factory installed options besides the Accessory Group. Body was built in  february, car came off production line in March 1949. 

[JoeKeys2010]

The car seems to have everything you mentioned. What about the seats. They are cloth. The guy swears the originals were cloth. I thought Virginian’s had leather pleated seats. But from what you are saying it did come with cloth seats

[Fid]

Here's the entry from the club handbook which I'm sure you have as you are a KFOC member.
If this violates any rules, let me know and I'll remove the post.

One option listed is:

2318 Havana Blue Stockholm & Beaumont Cloth
 060 Horizon Blue (lacquer) with Black nylon padded top

Which is consistent with the tag and pictures you posted.  I'd say the cloth was original.  Whether what's in it now is original I cannot comment on but according the tag, it originally had cloth interior.

Check your handbook, you'll see it.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

1949 Kaiser Virginian with Horizon Blue paint, Black Nylon top, Interior Raven a Blue Stockholm cloth with Beaumont cloth trim.  Transmission should be 3 speed manual with overdrive.  Car was built for domestic sale (rather than export) and equipped with Accessory Group #3  This is from my posting on the translation of car tags.  I tool a look at the front seat picture and it might be correct.  Check with Chief Judge Randy Rutherford ti be syre, 

Early production Virginians had some leather upholstery, most of them cloth.  Later production cars were more into the leather material rather than cloth.  Stockholm cloth (again read my earlier post) is the same type of cloth used in 1951 Kaiser Deluxe, 1952 Kaiser Virginian Deluxe models and 1952 Kaiser Manhattans.

Information listed comes from Kaiser-Frazer Sales Corporation Confidential Bulletins during the 1949 model year as well as KFOCI HANDBOOK. 

Make sense now?

[Roadmaster49]

Did he say if he or the original  owner reupholstered the seats. They look close to mine.