Judging - Post 2010 National

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

As of today, September 7 2010, I have received NO word from anyone officially that judging was even discussed at the National Convention held in June.  My concern on this is that I specifically asked the officers and directors of the club to make some decisions on a standard format for the information BEFORE ANY DRAFTS ARE COMPLETED, GIVEN A FIRST PASS CHECK & GET FIRST-PASS TEST. 

I know that Jim Betts put a lot of work into what was supposed to be a hand-held summary for field use which would be tied into the main set of standards.  I also know that this summary document--2 pages, per request of the Chief Judge--burst out to over 40 pages (I shudder to think what the main set of standards for a car would be like based on that).  I also know that certain parties planned to show this at the 2010 National even though the material was not consistent with the development brief.  I do not know if anything was shown, as again, nobody officially (club president, designate, etc) contacted me with status.

I am out of the loop therefore I am out of the project.

End of comments

[Fid]

Yes, it seems that judging at National Conventions will continue to be meaningless and pointless.

[Gordie]

All of this work on the judging standards is for the cars and the members use in restoring the cars correctly.  When they are finished for all of the different models they will be the accepted standard for our club.  Lets get them finished and to the members and they will be used by everyone.  It is a huge undertaking but coming along well.  Jack, please let us know what cars or models need help and we can ask for volunteers to contribute to their own specialties.

[darrin502]

Many associations are opting for not judging in favor of getting more cars to their events. There are many in our group that get extremly mad about the judging and just won't come back. It is my opinion that ours is more  a social group and we could get more car participation without judging.we could still have a guideline for restoration work which would be very helpful.  Many cannot afford or put in the amount of time required to get a gold. Let's just get more cars and more people to all kaiser events.

[Jim B PEI]

I, for one, will never be able to do, or afford a Bronze/Silver/Gold restoration of any car. I would much prefer that I and my car be welcomed for having made it it all the way there <ggg>.

I would rather have cars shown and chosen by judges to point out correct and not so correct ways of doing the details, and what they are looking for. As well, Kaiser, like Studebaker, has some very oddball cars which are 'correct' even if they don't appear to be--the odd colour combos like Red and not matching at all Maroon for interior and exterior colours, or the sheer cussedness of Carolinas that are loaded to the hilt with options. Even cars which have documentation to show KF built them that way, even if supposedly they didn't do that (like, a "friend" on the line, or at head office who authorized something for a good customer) If there were sessions at the Meet where photos from digital cameras could be used on screens to point out how to do stuff, that would be great. Even the tricks to get close to something no longer available, such as one example I heard of scanning original kick panels, and then printing the image in corrected colour out on special paper as an applique over a backing board. Even little stuff like those guide lights which were used by GM, but also by Kaiser as backup lights, and Studebaker on Hawks as park lights, with the subtle differences in bodies and lenses so you know which is which. That's the sort of meet I'd like to attend, well, beside the talking and eating and drinking and eating and talking and eating and talking and touring around!!

[Gordie]

It is fun to see the beautiful restorations all lined up but it is just as much fun for me to see a nice original.  That is what we are trying to make our restorations look like and those originals have details that a restoration can never offer.  The nice original cars in our club are being restored and they will lose that originality completely when they get repainted and reupholstered.  At the Queen Mary meet many years ago I sponsored a trophy for the best original car.  Well, they made me the judge and I picked a plain jane 1947 Kaiser that had not even been polished for the meet but it was as original as it could be and with a good clean up it would have been a gem.  I hoped that the club would pick up on that original class idea but they never did.  One day they will all be gone and we will be restoring our car to look like everyone else's.  You are correct about the smaller manufacturers making little changes to the assembly lines for favors.  I bought my Kaiser from the Brother of the original owner who worked for Kaiser and walked with his car down the assembly line.  He did not want the Darrin emblem installed on the deck lid even though the holes had already been drilled.  It still has it's original paint and there are two dimples on the deck lid where the paint did not quite cover the drilled holes.  I found the Darrin emblem under the back seat years later.  I wouldn't change it for anything even though it is not quite correct.  How can you argue with original paint?

[Jim B PEI]

One of the peoples' sentimental favourites in our small Atlantic Canada Club SDC is an HPOF 39? Commander. It has a few dents in its fenders from the first owner from new parking by sound throughout her long life and ownership of this car (over 50 years), and some scratches in the paint. The second and current owner just verrrry carefully cut the paint with very fine grade polisher to remove some of the oxidization without removing paint colour too much. At some spots, the paint is quite thin and there is a hint of the primer, but overall it is still the factory medium green. He just waxed it and after that, he has done no more restoration of the car at all, other than keeping it clean, lubed and detailed, dry and free from moth and too much sun, or damp. And he drives the car too for family outings, never trailered!

[Fid]

Jim B, I have to agree with you.  While I try to get things "right" on my cars, I do it because it's a labor of love, not because I want applause and a $12 trophy. And I'll never be one of those people that will dump my entire 401K or even my weekly paycheck, into a car restoration.
I have no problem having a car judged so I can see what things I need to work on or correct but I really couldn't care less about getting an award for it.  If someone such as yourself works on the old cars to  preserve them and keep them on the road and drive them, that in and of itself is praise worthy if you ask me. 
If someone wants to know what's correct I'll do my best to help them, if not, I'll enjoy their car(s) just the same.  There is one thing that I do not care for and anyone on these boards has seen examples of it from me, and that is mis-representation.  Having said that, even if a car is misrepresented, that does not make it a bad car.

[Jim B PEI]

Down the road in the town of Kensington, is an original Model A true HPOF. The first owner bought it new, and early in its life, it went off the Island by the ferry over to Pictou NS, the town nearest the ferry terminal. And then it came back, and was never off the Island again, until sometime after 1993, when the original owner drove it once more over on the ferry to Pictou. (That is pronounced PICKED-oh!) which was some 55 years later. So the car AND the owner were off-Island both TWICE only. <g>. There is a well-regarded body and paint man in Summerside, about 15 miles away from me, who has his own early Model T and who has carefully, lovingly, and beautifully restored many a Model T and A. Mr Campbell would never let him touch his car, though--as he wanted to keep that car entirely original as from the factory, warts, bits of rust, scrapes, faded blue paint, and all. Nothing was ever "upgraded" either--he early on bought enough 'new' spare parts that he has never has to resort to anything of recent manufacture, from light bulbs to whathaveyou. Mind you, some of those parts have been very carefully stored, through children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, several moves, and dozens of other workaday cars.

[Gordie]

My 1951 Kaiser coupe is my fourth one.  I always liked them and bought a nice one but kept upgrading to get a better one.  I finally found one that was all original with thirty thousand miles about twenty six years ago and my upgrading is now complete for that model.  I started the restoration on a Graham Paige Frazer a couple of years ago but as I got into it I found a very nice original in Florida that just needed some chrome work.  Someone had painted the grill and hubcaps silver so I'm now in the process of getting that done and it did not need any interior work so it should turn out pretty nice and for much less money than it would have cost to completely restore the first one.  I would rather have an original over a restored car anytime.  I guess it is not a good idea to get a car with too low mileage.  I bought a 1975 Ford Pinto with 609 original miles.  It is brand new.  I have owned it for five years now and it still has 609 miles.  I am going to sell it as I do not want to put more miles on it and what fun is it to have a car that you can not drive and enjoy.

[Lisa P]

Why can't there be, or is there already, the option to not have your vehicle judged but yet still shown at the conventions?  I too will never have the money for a complete frame-off, 100% correct restoration, but I am trying to do the best job that I can with the '48. 

Gordie, I am with you, there is something to be said about taking the time and effort to maintain and operate a 60 year old car, even if it isn't showroom shiny.  Like Jim, I too would appreciate judging to be a guideline for those who want to come as close to original as possible as well as for those that have the time and money to obtain it.  Fid, I completely understand that getting things right is a labor of love, especially if you do all of your own work like I do...under the car on a creeper, covered in oil and raccoon hairs from the previous tenants, using all hand tools because I can't afford air tools, lets just say I get it.  That being said, judging standards can be a quite useful tool, albeit discouraging at times...but I would love a copy before I get too far into my frame-on restoration 

[joefrazer]

At our meets, you can choose whether to have your car judged. It is not mandatory.

Judging at any meet, KF or any other club, has always been a hot topic. No one judge, or process, is perfect so all we can do is hope we get it as right as possible. Due to the cost of getting a car restored to factory specs, and the increased scarcity of parts, I forsee the day when judging is a thing of the past for most clubs. When that'll happen with the KFOCI...who knows...

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

From talking to people at the AACA and other organizations, as well as car owners themselves, at least for the time being the KFOCI has painted themselves into a major corner on judging.  As many are aware, there is no factory archive or factory reference facility like Studebaker and the Big 3 have so people can check out what is correct for a car when it comes to things Kaiser-Frazer.  As a result, the judging at a National Convention of the KFOCI became a gage as to how correct a car is.  A gold award from a National Convention is a significant selling point when it comes to commanding a high price for a car (and multiple gold awards ups things further).  Unfortunately, the word is starting to get out that KFOCI judging at a National Convention is, at times, not really worth anything becuase judges have no idea what they are doing and/or the information used for standards revolved around what a particular parts vendor was selling.

The effort to fix the information side of things (so the judge side of things could then be worked on) was behind the push this year for written standards that car owners could have access to as a restoration/maintenance guide.  Again, as I stated at the beginning of this post, since the National Convention this year, I have received NO WORD FROM ANY OFFICER OR DIRECTOR OF THE CLUB THAT WE ARE DOING ANYTHING!  Considering the amount of time that has passed since the 2010 National Convention, I can only take this as a decision reflecting abandonment of trying to fix what is wrong.  At least at this time, anyone claiming to be working on written standards should be suspect and un-sanctioned unless an official statement comes from the club president.  At least that is my opinion.

[Terry T]

As many of you know, I have been a proponent of standards for the Darrin for years, even before I got the job as Registry Manager  I was laughed off the stage in Chicago, and..well I won't go into what happened in Texas.  I have worked many many hours on the phone, talking to owners of unrestored cars to determine how they were built.  I have driven as long as 4 hours to review an original car.  I have had very heated discussions with many who have claimed to know what is correct for the Darrin based upon "experts" who judge them.  Additionally, I personally invited the original unrestored car to the Texas Convention so that others could see this gem!  Finally, I have been trying to determine breakpoints for certain items that had changed throughout the Darrin builds.  This hasn't been very successful.  I published "proposed standards" in my Newsletters, asking for comments.  I have received 4, as in FOUR, comments in the past 2 years.  Nonetheless, I have made the document available to Officers of the Club.  I too am very frustrated that these efforts have gone nowhere.  At least my list can be used by those who want to restore their cars to the way they were built--based upon data, not heresay.

[Gordie]

Thanks to all of you who have worked so hard to get these judging guidelines completed...No one else really knows the hours that go into the research especially the Club officers who do not hear very much about guidelines.  Who are these guidelines for?  They are not for some of the officers who really do not know what is going on with them but they are for the Club members and for our cars.  As Jack pointed out there are no archives for us to check but we sure have a wonderful Club Historian who does his best to answer all of our questions regarding the Club and our cars.  Because he has built a fantastic library at his own expense he is able to research our questions and give answers that are interesting and helpful to all of us.  There are very few good libraries of Kaiser Frazer research material and most of them are privately owned and funded and thus are personal collections.  Not every collection is willing to share the material as well as having the time and skills to pass the valuable information on.  Jack has not only done a wonderful job of keeping us informed about our cars but has invested thousands of hours poring over his material to try to start a meaningful set of guidelines for every year and model of our cars.  It has certainly been frustrating for him to be ignored and shot down by countless club officers over the last ten years and you can see that he is discouraged.  We do not really need anyone but our own members to make this research pay off for us.  The guidelines are well along but need final touching up and that we can do as volunteers as many of us are very knowledgable on certain models and have information to make the guidelines better and better.  They may never be perfect but they will be as good and useful as we can make them.  These guidelines will be our Club's archives as they will be well researched and everything will be documented.  No more trying to remember what happened fifty years ago or being influenced by people who are trying to sell you parts that they swear are correct. Let's all help get this project finished.  It will be fantastic!