Henry J

[ro.co3]

I'm new here, My name is Roland and I live in western N.C.. I have a friend who rotisserie restored a Henry J and now wants to sell it but of course value is a problem because there are so few comparables out there. I'll try and post some pics and maybe I could get some feedback from your group. Thanks in advance.
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http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5061/5583132054_49d87b51e3_s.jpg



http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5583131966/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5583131808/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5582545399/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5583131564/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5583131742/

[mbflemingkf]

Looks like a nice restoration.  Where in western NC are you?  I'm in Winston-Salem.  Take it to Autofair this week?  Great exposure I would think. 

[Fid]

It looks like a very nice piece of work but the car is a four cylinder without overdrive, which is the absolute base model, so it will not garner the interest or bring the price a deluxe with OD would bring. Also, it's unfortunate that the dash knobs and shift lever knob were not replaced with original types as the repros are available.  The original engine color is a much darker green than what this one has.
None of these things make it a bad car but it would likely bring a higher price if these things were closer to what it would have had originally. It looks like a very nice job and if someone wanted, they could easily correct said issues.  Of course, there are those out there who don't care about said issues.  All of this makes placing a value on it challenging. The fact that a Henry J sold for around $30,000 at Barret-Jackson a couple of years ago has put a  lot of false ideas into peoples minds. That car was a  '51 deluxe, nicely restored, but the price it brought was quite an anomaly.  I do recall seeing a '51 four cylinder sell on ebay for $10,500 a couple of years ago so you never really know. The fact that it's a '53, which are much less common than the '51s, usually doesn't seem to make much difference. Because it looks like nice work, and it's nicely done, it's likely worth somewhere around that $10,000 figure.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

A 1953 HJ Corsair with bare-bones equipment (of which there were fewer built than 1951) went unsold for some months at $3,995.00 in the MONTHLY BULLETIN (car was in VT).  I understand it was finally sold to someone in another state who had it detailed and put it up for sale through car magazines for $11,000.  Needless to say the car went unsold.

A 4 cylinder HJ gets pretty close to engine rev limits at 60-65 MPH depending on terrain (hills are of course worse than flats) and anyone who knows anything about the cars will be able to tell if an overdrive transmission was switched in by looking at the body plate;  those who find out later they did not get an original car are very likely these days to sue the seller for misrepresntation, so I do not recommend that option to get a bit more out of the car (at least on the flats).

Can you get more than a few thousand dollars for the car?  Maybe if you found just the right buyer.

Remember, 1920's Durants in very good condition are going unsold in the 15,000-20,000 range; they are even rarer than K-F products.

[Jim B PEI]

As far as upgrading a car for 'user friendliness' such as an overdrive in a 4 cylinder, new rims with radials, electronic ignition, or a 6Volt alternator over a generator, what one can always do is carefully preserve everything and make them part of the sale, with a full disclosure (and pictures before and after help) of what was replaced, and why. Then a car, if a subsequent owner desires, can be returned to factory OEM with little pain, and no reasonable grounds for complaint.

I have an alternator in my 49 to help preserve the current low quality lead acid 6 volt batteries that are available, and I might go the Optima route, but the generator is complete in the trunk and it can be returned to stock at any time.

[Fid]

This one, a '52 four cylinder without overdrive, has gone unsold on ebay 5 or 6 times now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-2-door-Henry-j-Kaiser-Gasser-51-52-53-54-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1e62b2c019QQitemZ130504900633QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

It's a driver, with several non-original features, but it is road worthy and in daily use according to the ad. But, there is no one out there willing to pay $4,000 for it.

[ro.co3]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I can see that the value of these cars is at an all time low. I guess this was not a good candidate for a full rotisserie restoration. Anyone who has done one knows the expense involved redoing the frame, drive train,paint,chrome, interior,etc., etc..
It was a labor of love for him and he enjoyed it, but like everything in life situations change. I'll tell him to put it away for awhile longer and see what happens.
Roland

By the way I wanted to add something, last summer there was a guy at a car show with a Henry J station wagon. Never seen one before I believe he said it was some kind of experiment from KF. Anybody know anything about it.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Someone from Florida came up to the second meet at Cave City KY with a Henry J wagon; he said he did the work adapting the upper part of a wagon and blending it into a HJ with roof and rear deck removed.  It was very well done and looked like a factory job.

You can always tell if something unusual was done by the factory.  There will be something at the SPEC-FO header of the large body tag.  Frazers start with "F-" while Kaiser and Henry J cars start with "K-" and Darrins begin with "KD-".  Unfortunately the detail behind these cars may no longer exist as company files in Toledo were buried in the landfill (at least much of it) by AMC in the early 1970's.  There still could be info in the Bancroft Library files of Henry or Edgar Kaiser (campus of University of California-Berkeley).

[ro.co3]

The one I saw was at a show in Hiawassee Ga. and the man that owned it said it was a prototype that was never put into production. I cant vouch for its authenticity but that's what I saw. Let me also say being a guy who's into restoring cars if it was a fake it was a good one .Just to fabricate that rear tailgate would be cost prohibitive for a vehicle with so little value. Anyway if he has it at that show again this year I'll be sure to get pictures and some more information.

[Fid]

Here's a similar one that's been listed on ebay numerous times -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Henry-J-1953-Henry-J-Corsair-Coupe-Rare-Unmolested-Survivor-CA-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1e62f39739QQitemZ130509150009QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks
I guess, as Clinton would say, "It depends on what 'molested' is."  This looks like a very nice piece of work too but it does have some things that are not quite authentic: It is a 4 cylinder without overdrive and that upholstery is not only not original, it looks nothing like any of the original upholstery options that were available on that model. The tutone paint (different color on the dash grill and glove box door) are not original and the red paint on the hubcaps is not either.  None of these things make it a bad car by any means, it's just that in my opinion it's not as pristine as the seller seems to think it is.  If I were looking for one, however, this is one I would consider as it looks quite nice and well done.

[Jim B PEI]

What would be the 'realistic' driving speed of a >>4<< cyl Henry J without overdrive? With overdrive? I'm guessing 40-45 and 50-55? Am I close?

[Fid]

I had a four cylinder without overdrive up to 65mph... for a few minutes! It bounced the number 3 rod right thru the block and out the pan.  The engine had been patched by a hack job so I'm not sure how it may have performed had it been done right.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

Many years ago, I had the chance to drive a 4 without overdrive for about 15 miles.  The drive required some rolling on an interstate and I had to keep up with traffic.  This was back in the 55 mph speed limit days and the car was hard pressed to hang in there. 

The original specification required by the United States government for the minimum top speed of the HJ (provision in the 1949 RFC loan to Kaiser-Frazer) was 50 mph and it would have to be able to hold that speed on flat lands (for how long at a time is not specified, just the road speed).

[Terry T]

Jack, the expert

What are recommended top speeds for a 161 CI in and out of overdrive? and for the 2 different rear axles?
I ask because I put an OD trans in my '51 that was built w/o OD.

[Fid]

I have a friend here who drives a six cylinder J, without OD, regularly in the summer time and he said he can do about 60 mph and it does OK.  My 6 with OD can cruise at 65 mph and I've cruised at 70 mph too with no problems of any kind. The car does have the 41/9 (4:55) rearend which the 6 cylinder OD cars were originally equipped.  I've heard using OD with 41/10 can cause problems because even though the OD allows the engine to run at lower rpm, it still requires more torque with the higher gear ratio.  I've had the overdrive units apart and it's clear they are designed for cruising, not accellerating so there may be something to this.  My dad bought a nice '51 Henry J from a club member here back in 1996.  Not long after he got it, it burned  hole in one of the pistons and he believes it's because when the previous restored added overdrive, he did not change the rear end.  I'm not so sure I would agree with that assessment but I will say I've never see a 6 cylinder J burn a hole in a piston or throw a rod.  Of course, there are other reasons it could've burned the hole in the piston.  I think it's likely because of ethanol gas here and the fact that when you use it, the engine timing is even more critical as it pings badly if you advance the timing any at all.  Pinging (detonation) will burn pistons for sure so that's my two cents.