51 Frazer Inquiry/ Question

[Roadmaster49]

Please educate me a little on the 51 Frazers.  I know these were carryover bodies BUT were they trimmed out as high end Manhattans or de-contented just to get rid of the carryover bodies? 

It is my understanding that Frazers stood for the better trimmed cars in the early days. I am "kind of" looking at a 51 Frazer that's for sale and in need of saving. I don't personally care for the grille but that's a minor detail.

Were these also rans or did KF trim them out well (including automatic transmissions)?  Thanks

[joefrazer]

The 51F was built to use up leftover 49-50 bodies that remained after KF decided to concentrate their efforts on the newly designed 1951 Kaiser. Utility, hardtop, convertible and sedan bodies were all in the mix. Somewhere around 10,000 units were built and to Kaiser's surprise, the car was a big hit. The number of orders for the car far exceeded the number available, but, once the bodies were used up, there were no more built.

A 1951 Frazer is a rare car today and if you find one in good shape, they are worth restoring to at least driver quality. You can almost guarantee to be the only person at your local cruise in with one!!

[Fid]

To answer the question "were they high-end Manhattans" - Here's my observation.  The basic F515 four door sedan model that we had did not have all the fancy interior trim our 1949 Frazer Manhattan had. The 1949/50 Frazer Manhattan had extra chrome trim on the dash, chrome interior window frames, chrome trim on the shift lever and signal light lever knobs (which were color coordinated to match the upholstery), wide chrome eschutcheons on the window cranks and a chrome trim bar on the steering wheel which said "Frazer Manhattan" on it. It also had a fancy, color-coordinated rear seat ashtray and other fancy trim. It was tutone in color and had some extra exterior chrome as well.
The 1951 Frazer four door sedan we had and all others I've seen, had none of that and were not available in tutones, which would lead me to believe they were based on the 1949/50 Frazer standard model.  Again, this is only my observation and not based on any KF factory documentation.
For 1949/50, the Frazer Manhattan referred to trim, a dual throat carburettor, higher compression head and most were tutone. For the 1951 Frazer, the Manhattan referred to a four door hard top or convertible, and also had extra chrome trim and most had a Hydramatic transmission which was not available on the 1949/50 cars.
Hope this helps.  I'm sure the historian will shed some more light.

[Jim B PEI]

I also understand from some comments made somewhere (source forgotten) that one of the reasons for the 'surprise success' of the 51 Frazer was that, even 'de-contented' in the modern jargon, they were available for a very good, almost giveaway, price. Also, that quite a few of the orders were somewhat soft orders from dealers who thought with the factory price, they could make some more money on the retail sales. Odd, I collected KF ads for a while, and I never twigged onto that, even though I knew some of the prices over the model years.

I guess that they threw everything into finally getting rid of the leftover early bodies, making hardtops, convertibles, and utility Frazers as well as the sedan

[Roadmaster49]

Great comments, thanks. So, this car is probably NOT a Manhattan. It does not sound like they made many 51 Manhattans as the approach was simply to get rid of the bodies. Having a dual throat carb, high compression head, Hydramatic etc would be pretty nice to have.

It makes sense to put the Frazer name on the leftovers and not confuse them with the new bodies.

[Jim B PEI]

Even 'de-contented', a standard model 51 Frazer seems to be a much nicer car in fittings and trim, and likely with overdrive or automatic and several other options, than your average 49-50 Kaiser, or 51 Kaiser Special. Just saying, and I have a 49 Kaiser Special. Adding into the fact that the design really clicked in its final incarnation, like front and rear fender 'adjustments' and the Fresnel tail lights, and they are an impressive car. They are very good looking in my opinion in the strong medium-dark green they had, or maroon.

One thing to consider "what if?"  I think it was Fid's father who put the 52? 53 Kaiser headlight rims on a 51 Frazer, and with the 51 fender line, they look perfect together.

[Fid]

If the car is not a hardtop or convertible, it is not a Manhattan.  For the earlier (1947-1950) cars, if it doesn't say "Manhattan" on the front fender flank, it is not a Manhattan. For some reason, it seems every Frazer  you see on ebay is listed as a "Manhattan" even though they are standard models. I'm not sure what makes for that, probably because the "Manhattan" was one of only two basic models offered and uninformed sellers just assume they're all Manhattans.

[Cortes121]

If the '51 Frazer you're looking at has all its trim, and the taillights are in good shape, I'd go for it. It's definitely a rare bird, a definite conversation piece. I was looking at a '51 Frazer Vagabond (utility model) which was in rough original shape but all the trim and tailights were present. I passed on it and now I kick myself...

Though as far as aesthetics go, I do find the '51 frazer a bit frumpy.. although the hardtop and convertible look really swanky.

[Roadmaster49]

If the car is not a hardtop or convertible, it is not a Manhattan.  For the earlier (1947-1950) cars, if it doesn't say "Manhattan" on the front fender flank, it is not a Manhattan. For some reason, it seems every Frazer  you see on ebay is listed as a "Manhattan" even though they are standard models. I'm not sure what makes for that, probably because the "Manhattan" was one of only two basic models offered and uninformed sellers just assume they're all Manhattans.

Fid,
It's not a hardtop or conv.  Here it is ---->  http://houston.craigslist.org/cto/2368993488.html

There are 3 on Craigs List/ebay now, one is offered at $22,000 or so.

I'll call the fellow tonight.  I ran into a "situation" on the 49 Frazer I was trying to buy in New Hampshire, so I appear to have lost out on that one.  It's a shame, these available projects are so far away. 

[Roadmaster49]

Note the other Kaiser (?) in the background. Someone else may have posted this car, my apologies if they did.  Looks like the original color was a light blue but I agree with others, paint it a darker color.

[joefrazer]

That Houston car looks like a good $500 parts car or might even make a decent builder if the floors and frame are good.

[HJ-ETEX]

I wondor why Hal Naumann is not aware of these cars:
 http://houston.craigslist.org/cto/2368993488.html
He is in North Houston and he is into 51-55 Kaisers as well as 55 deSotos!
He has a very nice 55 deSoto Sportsman.

[HJ-ETEX]

The 52 Kaiser looks like paint code 404 - a common tuotone in 1952

[Fid]

I just thought I'd tack one more comment on this.  Regarding Jim B PEI's comment about using the '53 Kaiser Manhattan headlight rims on a '51 Frazer - the first time I saw something like this was on a 1952 Henry J Vagabond that we spotted at Jim Earp Chrysler in Omaha circa 1972.  Someone had traded it in, it was very well preserved and the only modification was that someone installed those '53 K headlight rings on it. We thought it looked kind of cool. The first time I saw them on a '51 Frazer was when former KFOC President Herb Long stopped by our house on this way to the Dearborn National in 1974.  Herb was driving a 1951 Frazer Vagabond, with wire wheels, and he had the '53 K Manhattan headlight trim on it.
The '51 Frazer my dad had was a conversion done by Dale Hammon back in the early 80s I believe.  Dale had installed those headlight rings on that car.  For many years that car was owned and driven by Bob Hawkinson of Eden Prarie, MN and I sometimes saw him out and about with it.  My dad bought the car from Bob in 2003 and really liked it but when the opportunity for him to buy Edgar Kaiser's Henry J came up, he needed a place to put it so he chose to sell the '51 Frazer which is now in Delaware I believe.  It probably sounds sacriligious to divest a nice '51 Frazer for a Henry J but it was the fact that it was  a Kaiser family owned car and one that had not seen much daylight in the last 50 years. He bought it from Edgar F. Kaiser, Henry J Kaiser's grandson and Edgar Kaiser's son.  Dad's in his late 70s now and it is becoming more difficult for him to work on  the old cars so I have Edgar's Henry J here in MN now.  I do make sure it gets driven in the summer time but not as much as my other cars as I want to preserve it as best I can.
But, back to the '53 K headlight trim on a '51 Frazer, I've seen other ones with them too so I can't say who the first person to do it was.

[Jim B PEI]

Thanks for the clarification, Fid. "A good idea always bears repeating, doesn't matter who thought of it first."

The 53 Kaiser headlight rim looks like it was designed to be on a 51 Frazer