51HJ Overdrive

[MikeZ]

Hi all,
This is a followup to a previous post (6 volt to 12 volt, more questions than answers!).

I finally got the 12 volt solenoid and relay and now have everything hooked up and the transmission doesn't work!

I did the electrical testing as described in my shop manual. Everything checks out except the governor. The test for the governor operating at specific speeds (as described in the shop manual) fails. The governor doesn't seem to respond at any speed.

I don't think the governor is the problem, although I may need a new one.

The problem is that the transmission doesn't freewheel like it should. There is no difference between having the cable pulled out or pushed in. I have already checked to make sure that the cable is operating the lever fully, it is.

When I first installed the transmission i wasn't sure which position the lever was supposed to be in. I tried it with the lever toward the back of the transmission. I drove it 4 or 5 miles and it didn't freewheel. It operated just like a regular 3 speed.
The next morning I tried driving it again and the car ran a short way then wouldn't move forward in any gear. I switched the lever to be toward the front of the trans and I was back to operating like a standard 3 speed (like it should).
I assumed that it wouldn't move with the lever toward the back of the trans because the trans was freewheeling but something electrical was preventing the gears from engaging.

I disconnected the main power (Orange wire) to the relay and it doesn't make Any difference. I thought it should still freewheel but not go in gear like it did before I hooked any wiring up. No way.

Now it doesn't seem to matter whether wiring is hooked up or not. It operates fine as a 3 speed, but won't go into overdrive or freewheel with the cable/lever in any position. It seems to me like the trans should freewheel when the cable is pushed in (lever toward the back of the trans) no matter what.

I did an internet search to try to find information that would help. One guy said the planetary gears might be seized from running the trans dry. I don't think that's the case because of what happened when it wouldn't move at all. I also got a couple of funny results. My search criteria was " Overdrive not freewheeling" One guy said he hasn't been able to get his overdrive running right since he could no longer buy whale oil! Another said his Grandma had an overdrive and she was one freewheeling old gal! I kind of gave up on that!

Sorry this got so lengthy!!
I hate to pay to have the trans torn down if there is something simple wrong.

Does anyone have any ideas?
Thanks,
Mike

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

I had a similar problem with my 1952 Kaiser deLuxe.  It turned out to be the governor.

[Jim B PEI]

I had no freewheeling in my 63 V8 Studebaker Wagonaire. During a club tour, it gave up the ghost in rather spectacular fashion. Planetary gears were seized.

One rebuild later, it works charmingly.

I would check out to see if the cable IS going all the way in or not. I would disconnect the handle/wire, and see if you can get freewheeling manually by shoving the lever etc all the way. If NOT, I think you might have a problem

[Fid]

A bad governor switch would not prevent it from freewheeling.  It could be that the shaft that the OD cable lever turns is not seated all the way into the trans. It is held in place by pushing it all the way into the trans and then driving a pin down in to wedge it in and hold it in place. If that pin is missing, then the shaft can move in and out (sideways). If the lever is not all the way in and seated, when you push the cable in it will not push the sungear forward, hence it will not freewheel. I would pull outward (away from the trans) on that shaft and see if it  moves. Or, see if you can push it in, and pull it out (not back and forth as the cable would move it as that is normal) away and toward the side of the trans. If you can, that's probably what's wrong.
A good test is to put the car in a forward gear and disconnect the driveshaft from the trans. Then pull the lever that the OD cable connects to all the way backward and see if you can turn the transmission shaft (clockwise I believe). If you can, then the sungear is all the way back and the freewheeling mechanism is working. If you can't, pull the lever all the way back, then see if you can push it sideways into the trans. If it goes into the trans, hold it in (side pressure) then pull it back again (simulating the cable being pushed in) and try turning the transmission shaft - if you can, then you know that lever isn't into the trans far enough and possibly that pin is missing, likely because whomever put the trans back together may have forgotten it. The freewheeling mechanism is totally mechanical and will operate with or without any of the electrical components working.
Let me know if this helps.
Of course, as Jim B points out - if the planetary gears are siezed  you won't be able to turn it no matter what.

[Jim B PEI]

Thank you for explaining the process so clearly Mr F--I shall print that out. It beats the explanation offered in some workshop manuals!

Having spent a day going through everything with a friend trying to get the overdrive to work without success--as it never had since I got the car--we finally figured out it was the gears themselves, and I hoped for the best until I could get back home. However, it failed the next day, far far far from home, on a four lane highway. Not a cause, it was "just time".

Let me stress this. Your transmission might work without the overdrive working. If you are not getting freewheeling due to a seizure of planetary gears, you do NOT want to be driving on the highway if it grenades. It will soooo ruin your day!  If it is one of the other reasons, mechanical in nature, that might be better. By all means take the time now to inspect the transmission and overdrive unit for lubrication!!! Its mid-October.

 

[MikeZ]

Thanks for all the good info guys.

I will try FID's suggestion and check the end play on the overdrive lever.

The transmission had been setting many years before I bought it. It had been cleaned and was bone dry. I filled it with 80-90 gear oil before I ran it the first time.
When I lost all motivation with the overdrive lever engaged and then was able to drive it withput the overdrive engaged I was hoping it just needed to be driven some to be loosened up. No luck there.
If the planetary gear is seized I wouldn't expect it to run at all.
If the planetary gear is seized, will it really frag itsself eventually?
 

[Fid]

It might work itself free eventually but all three gears would have to work themselves free and if one or two of them do, there might not be enough strength in the remaining one to turn the entire mechanism which could cause it to break. Also, if they do work loose, they could also be sloppy on their own spindles and the OD will 'sing' when you move and make loud noises. I've seen that happen and replacing the planetary gear set is the only fix.  I don't know your level of mechanical ability or confidence but the planetary gears can be replaced without removing the entire transmission.

[MikeZ]

I am a pretty good barnyard mechanic (I rebuilt my engine with just a little help), but my experience and expertise on transmissions is somewhere between little and none.
I do have the original shop manual and am getting hooked up with A friend of a friend who is a transmission mechanic. Hopefully sharing the manual with him will save me some money.

[Jim B PEI]

To answer your question, it was the gears in the overdrive unit that were seized, and yes, the car did run for many years. Not well, mind you. Transmission was crap with a dicey second gear anyway. It was on the list of things to do--after one last 2 day tour trip

Second, there was increasing vibrations followed by a BANG! and then some black smoke, and some extremely bad vibrations after that. At that point, a mile or so from my host's BBQ, a very slow crawl was done to get it off the 4 lane, followed by a tow to a shop to drop the transmission out (about $500 there). I came back with a Jeep and a dolly to pick up the car, and tow it for 5-6 hours home, with the transmission out.  ($300 just for that roundtrip--the Jeep sucked gas and the $60 in tolls didn't help) The transmission was taken about 1000 miles by me on my next 750 mile trip to central Canada--so only a detour of 500 miles round trip from Ottawa, to drop off at a specialist oldtimer expert. 3 months and another $1300 later, I reversed the process and picked up the completely rebuilt transmission+overdrive, and then paid to have it properly re-installed

So, don't ignore the problem!!!!

[MikeZ]

to Jim B PEI,
Holy smokes!
This is all very bad news for me. The car never had an overdrive before. I bought the overdrive for $400.00. Also had the solenoid rewound, bought a 12 volt relay that was compatible, had the drive shaft shortened, got a wiring harness from Bob McBride. Looks like all that might have been just a start!
I still don't quite understand how the planetary gears seizing would cause all those problems if the transmission was operated only without engaging the overdrive. But then there is a whole world of things I don't understand about transmissions, especially overdrive!!

Thanks again,
Mike

[Jim B PEI]

That being said, don't WORRY about overdrives, because they are really really robust units, and generally, nothing much goes wrong with them.

I should have paid attention (before) to the worrying thing that I had no freewheeling even manually..and checked the state of the overdrive unit itself. My fault.

If they have oil, and haven't been stoplight drag-raced  as mine apparently was--repeatedly, the expert opined, so the gears were trashed-- at some point in its life (happens to V8 Studebakers more than 4 or 6 cyl Kaisers and Frazers) then most of the other problems are just electrical of the "Rube Goldberg, scratch your head, eliminate one by one paying attention to the list" sort.

[Fid]

I check the lube in my transmissions every spring. Seems I always have to add some to one of them as they all leak a bit. That's the real danger is letting them go dry. If they stay lubed, they'll probably last forever.