Author Topic: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion  (Read 5732 times)

ohmdr

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Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« on: February 03, 2010, 11:44:32 PM »
Hi all,

I just joined the site last night.

Since this car isn't a production car, a Darrin, or a complete Henry J, I wasn't sure where this really goes in the grand scheme of the site.
As such, I'm posting it under General Discussion and will gladly move it somewhere else if anyone thinks there is a better place for it.

Before we get too far, I want to say that I know there are some strong opinions (for and against) already on this car, and that is OK.
I am not here to try and represent it as something that it isn't, to sell it, etc.
I'm researching the car/history of it so that I can build it as it was intended/envisioned, and I want to hear ideas, thoughts, information, gather documentation, or anything you think may help point me towards that goal.  I want to figure out how this car came about, who designed it and what they wanted to do with it.  After I have those answers, I want to build the car and have fun with it.

If nothing else, we can call it "Darren's Dream Darren"

Anyway, here is a link to information on the car, some of my research from the past year, etc.
The second link is to a blog I started on the car.  It is currently (02/2010) out of date and I'll work at getting it updated, but that will have more information, photos about it and other cars, etc. as I continue my research.

My mind is wide open, so chat away.  I'm open to all comments.

http://www.forgottenfiberglass.com/?p=837
http://www.1951kaiser.wordpress.com

Thanks.

Darren Swanson

« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 12:36:50 PM by ohmdr »

kaiserfrazerlibrary

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Re: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2010, 06:18:19 AM »
Darren,

As I have told several who came before you, the story you present behind the car is a SCAM!  There are a number of things wrong with the so-called documentation that the original seller presents:

1.  Company regulations did not allow hand written entries on the By-Products Sales Documents; they had to be typed for Plant Protection (the security guards) to allow stuff out the gate.

2.  There are NO photos of a sketch, clay model, or any other documents that show the design was done in house.  The only fiberglass prototypes were done off the Howard Darrin design which ended up--with very little change--as the production Kaiser Darrin Sports Car.

3.  This mish-mash originally showed up on eBay for sale with a starting price of $400,000 dollars.  When the seller was informed it was not a Kaiser prototype sports car, the copy in the ad was changed to be the prototype 1946 Darrin automobile.  When the seller was informed that it was not the prototype 1946 Darrin automobile, it was pulled a second time.

4.  The fiberglass body was identified last year as being an "aftermarket" kit car from a company in California.  Best guess is that a former (sale was made during the shut-down period at Willow Run) K-F employee bought the entire car (it does not say chassis only on the invoice) from the company (one of the pool vehicles) with the intention of making the sports car out of it, but it never got finished. 

Jack Mueller
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Kaiser-Frazer Owners Club International

ohmdr

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Re: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2010, 06:41:29 PM »
Jack,

I am very interested in knowing more on #4 from your reply.

4. The fiberglass body was identified last year as being an "aftermarket" kit car from a company in California. 

Up to now, all leads I've had towards kit car bodies/manufactures have run into a "No, not that", or have been dead ends.
Would you please provide me with the contact information for the person(s) who identified this as a kit car body and/or the company name of it?  I am very interested in continuing down that path and if someone has been able to ID it, that information would be extremely helpful to me.

Thank you again for your past and present information.

Darren Swanson

kaiserfrazerlibrary

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Re: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 09:42:23 PM »
I refer you to photos taken at the 2008 National in Salem Oregon.  Volume 44 Number 3 of KFOCI QUARTERLY magazine shows a fully done up and operational example of the car covering pages 12 and 13.  I have also seen color photos of the car at this event.  Perhaps Jim Betts can post some photos as the event was up in his area for the pictures and more info on the car.  If I remember correctly, it was once posted (as part of a color photo spread of the 2008 National) on the club website.

Jack Mueller

pnw_oldmags

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Re: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 01:30:57 PM »
Here is the link to the 2008 Salem Natl Photos.  In the Modified Class there are two HJ Mods - the Yellow Glasspar and the Red Carsten but I dont believe this is either of those.

http://www.circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/photos.html
Jim Betts  LM6945
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pnw_oldmags

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Re: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 03:14:27 PM »
This is the Red Carsten that was there

Jim Betts  LM6945
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Re: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 03:16:13 PM »
This is the Yellow Glasspar that was there.
Jim Betts  LM6945
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Re: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 03:24:50 PM »
This is the Mystery Car.

Jim Betts  LM6945
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Re: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 03:26:09 PM »
Maybe the Frame, steering wheel and hub caps are the same - but the fiberglass is definitely different I think.
Jim Betts  LM6945
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ohmdr

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Re: Kaiser "Sport Special" - Mysterion
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2010, 03:51:16 PM »

Jack,

Thank you for the information on the magazine.
On my way home from work last night I stopped by a friend's house to look at his copy of KFOCI QUARTERLY (Volume 44 Number 3) magazine.  Due to the weather and family activities, I had to leave before finishing the article (pages 12-26), but he was kind enough to let me bring it home to finish reading it.  Dean Trask did a great job writing the article and it sounds like the 50th Annual National Convention in Salem, OR was a hit.
I noticed the pictures of both sports cars right away.  The first car, bottom photo in the left column of page 12, is a Glasspar G2.  At first glance the second car, bottom photo, middle of pages 12 and 13, looked like an Excalibur J sports/race car.

Jim,

When I got back online to post this reply, I saw the photos you added, which identifies both. 

As you indicated, the yellow car (same as the first car above) is a Glasspar G2.  The Glasspar G2s were built by Bill Tritt/Glasspar between 1950 and 1956.  Bill/Glasspar sold several hundred of these in both complete car form, kits, and to several companies that modified and sold them in complete or kit for with their own branding.  The Woodill Wildfire is one of the better known versions of this body.  With a 101 inch wheelbase, the body could be put on many different chassis.  Many were put on modified Ford chassis. while others were put on one of several custom built chassis made for the G2 and Wildfires.  Those also used Ford suspension parts.  My understanding on the Wildfire is that Woody Woodill was a Willys dealer and used Willys chassis for some of the ones he built and sold as complete cars.  I also know of a G2 with a 1953 Willys chassis on it, and the one at the National Convention looks right at home sitting on a Henry J chassis.

I've spoke with Bill Tritt's son and shared photos of my car body and information about it him.  He in turn looked through his families documentation on the Glasspar cars and boats, as well as speaking with his father about it.  Bill is 93/94 year old, but still with us.  Both have assured me that Bill/Glasspar did not build my cars body.  They also provided some great knowledge on what skills, experience and planning it takes to build a fiberglass body to the state that mine is in, as well as the type and amount work necessary to make the body itself road worthy and mountable on a chassis.

Here is a much more in-depth history on Bill Tritt and the Glasspar cars.  It is a really great read and includes mention of Bill providing information and a G2 body to Darrin. - Bills son even shared with me that Bill tried to talk Darrin out of the sliding door design.  His words were "I tried to tell Dutch that it was a dangerous and crazy design!  It will take someone's hand off because they will slide open/closed on hills!" http://www.fiberglasssportscars.com/Glasspar/History/History.htm

Moving on to the second car, as I mentioned, my first impression was that it was a Brooks Stevens designed Excalibur J sports/race car.
Brooks did design work for a number of companies, including Kaiser Frazer.  He tried to sell the idea of a sports/race car to the Kaiser company.  When the idea didn't sell, he purchased several Henry J chassis (in 1951) and built 3 Excalibur J race cars on his own.  These were aluminum bodied, with Willys F-head engines in two and various engines being reported in the third.  The first engine being an Alfa Romeo and later a Jaguar engine. 
All three of these cars were raced successfully, with various modifications made to keep them competitive.  By the late 50's, Brooks was working with Studebaker and built new cars (Excalibur SS) based on the Packard chassis and using Studebaker power plants.
 The two Henry J powered car are, or until recently were, in the hands of Brooks Stevens sons.  I've been told that the third car also exists and is owned by someone in Wisconsin.  I do not have any confirmation on it though.

I've spoken with Brooks sons and, like the Tritt family, they have looked at their fathers work/records and the design companies (which is still in business) records and have been unable to find a link.  They also tell me that the general shape and flow of lines is not in his style. 

Below is a photo of an Excalibur J so that you can see the similarities and differences between it and the Carston.

Moving back to the Carston Custom of Wheeling, IL. 

I had never heard of this car before so I Googled several variations of the name, town, etc.  Wheeling is a suburb of Chicago, which is a couple hours from where I live.  Since the only good "hit" I found via Google is a Studebaker page that lists Carston Motors, Wheeling, IL as a dealer, I've contacted the public library up there and asked if they can do a search of their news articles, public records, etc. for any name, address, etc. that may help me research this car further.

At this point, I am not seeing a connection between the Carston and my car, as the designs and shape are significantly different.  Still, I am going to learn more about the Carston and will share with the group here.  If it has a fiberglass body, I'll also share with the fiberglass car group (www.forgottenfiberglass.com) that I've joined.


Thank you both for the great input and information. 

The mystery remains wide open and I'm open to more input, thoughts, suggestions, etc.

Thank you.

Darren Swanson