Author Topic: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby  (Read 3115 times)

Roadmaster49

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Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« on: November 21, 2016, 09:08:14 AM »
I went to an auction on Saturday with project cars in Iowa and I was aware of another auction in Iowa on the same day which I wanted to attend. 

Neither had any KF's but the results speak to what seems like a permanent shift in the old car hobby.  Both auctions had cars which could be considered collectible and both ended up selling most of them at $100 to $250.  While none are household names in the big leagues of collecting - think Corvettes, Mustangs, muscle cars and iconic convertibles - all have their quirky followers like "us".

The auction I attended had 55 lots. The 1st 18 were Corvairs and this guy collected primarily convertibles and 4 speed cars and none went for more than $250 with an average price of $200.    60's convertibles (Mercury / Imperial / Cadillac / Oldsmobiles) in nice straight condition were going for $350 to $675. 

At the 2nd auction, it was all Buicks and 85% those 1st generation Buicks 1963-65, and all but one went for $200 max.   I wonder if auctioneers like Vanderbrinks will consider not doing these project car auctions without a guaranteed minimum. 

Based on these results I really DO NOT want to overpay for a KF project car.  No wonder Rudy P wants out! Is there any way to turn this trend around? 
No old cars owned.

Bobm90

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2016, 10:28:36 AM »
Sadly there seems to be a shift from what WAS to what now seems to resell easily. I saw this trend with Ford Model t and model A seems like when the older collectors died off they went down in value, and as the 50's crowd became interested in collecting the value in them went up, these too will go down in their time. There are more factors naturally, one is that a lot of people don't have "disposable" income right now, their family needs come first (as it should be) , and lot of people are out of work with a unsure future. Another factor is that cars are not quick turn around items and if you view them as a investment you can get burnt, I have spent more on a project than it is worth in the end as have many on here. The trend for many now is a so called mussel car, many younger people want a turn key hot rod with all the creature comforts in it and they don't find that in the older cars. Sorry to say but times they are a changing, hope things swing the other way.
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1954 Kaiser Manhattan 4 Dr

Gordie

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2016, 01:38:12 PM »
Model T Fords are not much fun to drive with their two wheel brakes and no water or fuel pump.  The gas tank was in the cowl and if you are low on gas you had to back up a hill in order for the gas to get to the carburetor.   Most new drivers today do not know how to drive a stick shift and they would not buy one.  The cost of restoring a car today far exceeds the cost of buying a nice one ready to go so parts cars will remain just that as it costs too much to bring one back to life.  It is not just Kaisers but most collectible cars.  You can buy just about any part that you need for a Model T or A Ford or Mustang or early Chevrolet as thousands are being restored but few of our Kaisers and Frazers and Willys are and thus there is little call for remaking scarce parts.  Also with the change in the quality of gasoline and oils  it makes older cars undependable on the road and that is why so many of them have been turned into street rods.  You have the beauty of the older designs with the dependability of a new car.  I think that it is a reality that we are going to have to accept.  Dennis Carpenter and Bob Drake are the main suppliers for older Ford and Mercury parts and they have both told me that if it were not for street rodders they would not have the volume of buyers to remake all of the parts that they have recreated.  Our club is well over fifty years old and we do not see as many original cars being driven to meets as in the past.  More and more are being trailered and some are only unloaded long enough for the judging.  Our restored cars are valuable and driving them just helps them depreciate sooner.
Member #3151 Since June 1974
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pnw_oldmags

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2016, 03:36:52 PM »
I am sorry ... but I have a different spin on this.  I guess I must be a glass half full person.  As a Home Restoration guy ... trying to preserve my KFW cars and help others do so ... this seems to make cars more affordable for young people to join our hobby and for us to purchase parts cars.

If I was building cars to resell and make a fortune this would be bad news as auction prices come down. If you have been collecting and restoring KFW Vehicles to make money for retirement, then I am afraid you have chosen poorly. If you enjoy people and the history of one cool line of fifties autos then welcome aboard.

Just my thoughts
Jim Betts  LM6945
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joefrazer

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2016, 10:12:39 PM »
I've been part of the KFOCI since 1964 and I've seen three distinct "waves" of owners over the years. At first, there were those who either bought the cars new or as nearly new used cars. This group didn't so much restore their cars as maintain them - because after all, they were only a few years old. Sure, they enjoyed driving and showing their cars but the primary focus of the club at that time was to provide both technical support as well as a source for parts.

Wave two included the extended family. This included the kids in the family who remembered the cars when the were young and are now old enough to drive them. The club became an important source for information and parts because slowly, those in the first wave became less involved. This was the heyday for the club, and just about any club in general - that time when better sources for parts became available (club vendors, NAPA, JC Whitney, etc) and incomes were strong enough to support taking the car on a long vacation to attend a national meet. And, meets became more a social event than a gathering for technical support.

Wave three includes today's collector. There are those who hope to buy low and sell high, those who hope to find just the right vehicle to restore, either to resell or keep because it reminds them of a car in the family, as well as those who may not own a car but who have an interest in some aspect of a particular make. I know several club members who have no interest in owning a Kaiser or Frazer, but enjoy collecting the literature and accessory items that KF had available. The number of wave three car collectors is much smaller than the first two for several reasons. People are busier than ever, work schedules are no longer strictly 9 to 5, and folks have been lured into this sense of instant gratification. Why buy a car that needs restored when one can either buy something that's already done, or better yet, buy a shiny new car that looks and sounds a lot like what grandpa drove home from the dealership lot fifty years ago. And, the social piece has become more important than the cars at a meet. Sure, while we still buy and sell a few parts, display our cars on judging day, and drive them around the neighborhood, there are fewer of us who do that and more who instead attend a meet to sightsee and get reacquainted with those they haven't seen since last year.

We can debate the reasons for declining collector interest and no one has a wrong answer. There are many pressures on folks today to achieve and finding time to restore a car just isn't in the cards for many. As a result, cars that twenty years ago would have been snapped up right away go begging today. I've never seen so many two door 51s, Dragons, and hardtops for sale as I have in the last six months. While I'm sure a few will find new homes, many will end up tucked in the back of a garage hoping for better days.

darrin502

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2016, 10:59:44 PM »
I am 71 now and have restored 3 Darrins and in the process of restoring 2 more Darrins. It is a big undertaking it took me 7 years to do the first 5 years fo the second and 41/2 for the third. I am not sure of the next two. A lot of time and a lot of money. I do it because I love the Darrin and I have been a mechanic (not professionally) since I was 16. This is not a business for me if it was I am restoring the right Kaiser. You can only restore Kaisers for love not money. I guess I am in good health for being 71 I am still able to do alot of the work and trailer the cars to car shows. I am also fortunate to have the money to pay for the things I cannot do myself. All of the KF cars I see I like weather they are show cars, drivers or survivors. Do what you can be proud of what you have, show it, if it is different people will enjoy it. The people I meet at all the car shows want to see cars that are not the big three. I know that there are many who are not able to do what I am able to do, the old addage is if you can't do, teach, we need teachers those who know the information from the past. Alot of us need the right information from those who know.
There is nothing better then vintage American iron.
I invite everyone members or not to the KF convention , the next one is in Prescott AZ in 2017.
Thank you
Lee abrahams LM 1076
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 11:11:47 PM by darrin502 »
LM #1068
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1954 Darrin #  60
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1954 Darrin # 193
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Roadmaster49

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2016, 08:49:20 AM »
Lee
You are my hero.  The Darrins are one of the few collectible KF's that the general public and collector car world knows about but if I understand you - you enjoy the CAR whether it's worth more or not, you like the Darrin's. 

So your message is universal and applies to ANY KF or any car that can be restored, collected, enjoyed.  If only we had more with your interest at age 31, 41, even 51 - then the hobby stays relevant and maybe we don't have this discussion. 
No old cars owned.

mbflemingkf

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2016, 09:18:15 AM »
I, for one, hope joefrazer and Lee closed the chapter on this incessant babble about the value of KF cars with their excellent responses. 

For those who continue to lament about the value of KF cars and whether they should buy one, there are MANY marques out there with clubs and/or forums you can chat within with no financial exposure.

Please consider these. 

Just my thoughts.

 ;)

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Carpenter

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2016, 09:43:30 AM »
Just from reading, what I see as a problem in pricing, is club members waiting for tragedy to hit someone and snatch up their car at below reasonable price.  Shame on you.

Roadmaster49

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2016, 09:09:24 PM »
Carpenter

I hope you are wrong on the tragedy issue. 

My point is NOT about value or worth or making a buck, it's about the trend toward NOT restoring cars which should be restored except people are dropping out of the restoration hobby. 

I would much rather buy a decent KF at $500 and then restore it using all the parts guys in the KF world. When I buy parts or pay for services, it's no questions asked. If that's your price, no issue I need it. 

But for cars - no way.  Most KF's on CL the owners have very little in them and you can tell when they are trying to fund a vacation with the sale.  On the other hand, we see a few solid buys on CL because of the low demand for KF's not named Darrin or Dragon.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 09:13:54 PM by Roadmaster49 »
No old cars owned.

Roadmaster49

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2016, 09:12:11 PM »
I, for one, hope joefrazer and Lee closed the chapter on this incessant babble about the value of KF cars with their excellent responses. 

For those who continue to lament about the value of KF cars and whether they should buy one, there are MANY marques out there with clubs and/or forums you can chat within with no financial exposure.

Please consider these. 

Just my thoughts.

 ;)

Not sure if that was directed at me but the title of my post says it all and that has nothing to do with the value of the cars but rather that ALL of the cars are being passed over because few are doing amateur restorations. 

Nothing to do with value or residual value after the restoration but just we can't seem to find guys and gals who want to get greasy anymore.
No old cars owned.

Corsairdeluxe

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2016, 12:34:28 PM »
I have restored several cars to a high standard. I paid my dues on the subject. I offer a simple question that prompts a complex resolution.
Re."Project" vehicles. How many current car hobbyists can do body work? Shop time here is $75 and up. The paint is going to be $4000-to $6000. Similar question How many of todays enthusiasts can paint to commercial standards.

Todays hobbyist do not have the skillset possessed by our seasoned citizen gear heads ,but they can count.

Jim Brown aka Corsairdeluxe
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Dragon

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2016, 12:48:02 PM »
Correct Jim,  very expensive hobby for anyone.  The hobby has changed a lot.  When I was younger, we were just keeping a car running.  Today we call it restoring instead of running.
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Fid

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2016, 02:10:09 PM »
Quote
When I was younger, we were just keeping a car running.  Today we call it restoring instead of running.

That's exactly how it was for me as well. The cars I own now are nicely restored but unless someone just gives me one, I won't be doing any more restorations.
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Roadmaster49

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Re: Poor Auction Results a Bad Tiding for Restoration Hobby
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2016, 09:48:31 AM »
I have restored several cars to a high standard. I paid my dues on the subject. I offer a simple question that prompts a complex resolution.
Re."Project" vehicles. How many current car hobbyists can do body work? Shop time here is $75 and up. The paint is going to be $4000-to $6000. Similar question How many of todays enthusiasts can paint to commercial standards.

Todays hobbyist do not have the skillset possessed by our seasoned citizen gear heads ,but they can count.

Jim, great points.  Here is a counter.  I only buy cars with no damage to the "body".  If the damage is to the front clip OR pans, I consider buying as a project with of the course the best scenario being a fully straight body.

Rust?  Depends.  If there is some rust in the rear quarters I would consider grinding down to bare metal, treating and body filler.  Doors, trunk lids etc if dented or rusted can be tossed and replaced by me. 

As for paint, I agree paint cost is high but what is worse is the "concours" standard that we see.  If a person buys a nice HVLP paint gun from Sears and an air compressor and dessicant filter, then they right there have a better paint set up than KF did in the 1950's.

Then - since painting a car is a one and done - a person spends a weekend putting up the plastic sheeting and securing the garage "paint booth" and goes for it.  Then live with the results. 

The problem is the culture of saying you must keep up with the Joneses and have a $10,000 paint job on a KF worth $7000.  To gain experience with a  gun and painting, paint the hood, fenders and such 1st.  I am sure you know all this because you have restored your cars, but my point is the culture of perfection needs to be kicked to the curb.   It alone causes more non starts on restorations that money does, in my opinion. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 09:50:57 AM by Roadmaster49 »
No old cars owned.