Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Roadmaster49 on June 07, 2019, 08:11:07 AM
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I am a member of 3 old car clubs. Buick (BCA), Cadillac (CLC) and Kaiser Frazer (KFOCI). I will no longer be active in the Buick club, but own 2 modern Buick collector cars which I may sell. My issue like some of us, is limited space and time.
I currently have no Cadillacs and no KF's. I own a modern truck and my company provides a company car, so if I need to get to KFOCI or CLC meets and events I can, in modern transportation.
It's important to me, and may be to others, going forward that I meet and enjoy the company of others in any club I join. I have spent way too much time on forums in the past 15 years, not enough time in the garage and much less time driving my collector cars new or old.
Sorry for the long winded background but it informs the question or inquiry:
Can KF cars be reliable on modern transportation roads? If so, is there a limit to daily mileage or expectations?
I'm NOT interested in trailering anything to meets or get togethers. KF cars, and even Cadillacs up until the 60's were really not built for highways. I was not around from 1947 to 1955 but I was in the 70's. Interstate systems are even much more advanced from 1975, let alone 1955.
I personally do not believe the cars from that old were built for anything more than local to intermediate transportation. It is interesting that during the life of the KF product, we saw a sea change in the transportation model in America as highways became more common place. The KF added automatic transmissions and before that OD was meant to extend the pleasure of the longer distances.
I also highly doubt I will do any more restorations. I am just too old and have not caught the bug to do a ground up on a car. Never say never, but restorations are too expensive and time consuming and you have to really feel confident you can do a car right. Therefore, if I buy 2 cars either Cadillac or KF, I will plop down some cash and I need them to be nicer than
normal and ready to enjoy.
Asking cars to do more than they were intended for is not a good recipe for enjoyment of the hobby. In my opinion. Planned obsolescence, and limitations of engineering and quality (or lack thereof) of lubricants and gas meant that cars were not intended to go 200,000 trouble free miles like modern cars/SUV's are.
So with all that said to add to the narrative -
Can KF cars be driven to and from meets?
If so, what are the expectations for daily mileage and do you take the interstates or just the by-ways? (I personally will probably do by-ways)
Does the club consider meet locations based on getting away from dangerous freeways where cars and semis pass you going 78 to 85 mph?
Which of KF's cars perform best for mid to long distance travel or is there any difference?
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I drove an unrestored '51 HJ from MI to CA on old 66, and I really mean the old 66--oldest spurs when available...dirt, gravel, and chopped up concrete. Took 9 days, but I got there!!
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Back in the 1970s we always drove KF cars to the meets. In '74 we drove a '48 Kaiser Custom from Omaha to Dearborn to Toronto to Washington DC and back to Omaha. No problems. I recently drove a '51 Kaiser (all stock drive train) from Mpls to Mount Pleasant, IA and back - no problems. I drove my '53 Henry from Mpls to Auburn and back in '04 - no problems. And I've made many other long trips in Kaisers and Henry Js so I don't know where the "cars from that old were built for anything more than local to intermediate transportation" thought comes from. In 2001, 78 year old Tom Brytanyac drove a stock '53 Allstate from Oregon to Oshkosh, WI and back. Make sure the fluids are full, belts and hoses not rotten, tires good and you can drive them all over the place.
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My 1950 Traveler is a driver and I've taken it to meets as far as 300 miles from home. With overdrive, the engine isn't stressed and I enjoy the thumbs-up I see as I roll down the road.
As Fid mentioned, the key to driving an old car is ensuring everything on the car is ready for the trip - good tires, fresh fluids and a driver ready for the adventure!
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I have done Many Long Distance Runs From 400-1500 Miles. I & 2 Others Check before a Long Trip 1500 Miles Trip & then No Problem.
I have had Club Members ready with a Trailer if Something Goes Wrong. Then they would Pick Vehicle & I Up & Go to The Show.
Remember During WW 2 stoped Production & Make Things For even Plaines. Quality Control a Must.
Oh, I on Long Trips Noticed High Dollar New Vehicle’s, waiting for a Person to come toll. The looks You get heading down the Road.
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I remember riding down the interstate in my '48 when I was a kid in the 80's. It did occasionally have the vapor lock issue on extremely hot days. Dad would have to pull over and let cool down. I believe there are ways to keep that from happening now. I also remember my grandfather saying, when I came to pick the car up, that he used to run down the interstate at 80mph no problem at all
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Many of us are old enough to remember when it was possible to just jump in any old car and head for where ever we wanted to go. When our Kaisers and Frazer's were made the Pennsylvania Turnpike and the Pasadena CA freeway were just a few years old and are nothing like the modern turnpikes and freeways of today where speeds of 80+ mph are allowed commonly driven. Because of changes in fuel, to be dependable our K-F fuel systems must be brought up to different standards in order to be able to use modern fuels. When this is done our cars should be dependable when driven at the speeds that they were designed for and under normal circumstances could cruise all day at 55-60 mph. The handling of modern cars is much improved over the older cars and they can be driven at 75 MPH all day. Nothing can beat the beauty of our Kaisers and Frazers and because of that many owners have put more modern engines and suspensions or even put the K-F bodies on later model chassis allowing for better handling, higher speeds, air conditioning and ease in finding replacement parts when needed. Decide what you want out of a Kaiser or Frazer and respect their limitations. If you have a late model Buick and can not sell it consider using that modern drive train in a nice older Kaiser that will give you all of the features of a modern drivetrain and the dependability and handling of your later model Buick. Decide what body style you like the most in Kaisers or Frazers and pick up a clean one with bad mechanics and put the two together for a ride that you can enjoy for many years.
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My 1950 Traveler is a driver and I've taken it to meets as far as 300 miles from home. With overdrive, the engine isn't stressed and I enjoy the thumbs-up I see as I roll down the road.
As Fid mentioned, the key to driving an old car is ensuring everything on the car is ready for the trip - good tires, fresh fluids and a driver ready for the adventure!
Yes, what you and Fid state is correct. I have driven old cars long distances before with a fair amount of breakdowns, and it was due to just buying them at a distance then driving them home, not after continued ownership.
There is perhaps more too it than stating a person successfully drove a car a long distance. When I drive my modern transportation, I have A/C, power everything, quieter, and I could likely drive 1000 miles but the driver would get worn out, so 700 miles or so is tops for me.
And for some old cars I have owned I have just "felt" the car had had enough for a particular day. Jim's comment about driving the Traveler 300 miles one way seems to me about right, maybe a little more. I don't know why - maybe these KF's in good condition can be driven longer.
And the 70's the speed limits were slightly less and it was still common to see "slower" makes on the freeways like VW Beetles and such that you would pass going maybe 5 mph faster. Now, I get buzzed by drivers going 15 mph faster.
The stress of driving an old KF with more noise, vibration and worry I think might limit me a bit. Sure they can go 80 mph, but no way I would push a KF 80 mph to make time.
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Many of us are old enough to remember when it was possible to just jump in any old car and head for where ever we wanted to go. When our Kaisers and Frazer's were made the Pennsylvania Turnpike and the Pasadena CA freeway were just a few years old and are nothing like the modern turnpikes and freeways of today where speeds of 80+ mph are allowed commonly driven. Because of changes in fuel, to be dependable our K=F fuel systems must be brought up to different standards in order to be able to use modern fuels. When this is done our cars should be dependable when driven at the speeds that they were designed for and under normal circumstances could cruise all day at 55-60 mph. The handling of modern cars is much improved over the older cars and they can be driven at 75 MPH all day. Decide what you want out of a Kaiser or Frazer and respect their limitations.
Good points. I started thinking about this topic when discussing a 1941 Cadillac purchase with a seller. Sure, 41 Cadillacs with their 346 V8's could go 80 mph but handling is nearly 80 years old technology wise, and brakes are not up to modern traffic. So I started to wonder can I drive any of these new purchases, or will it be local only.
I am sure KFOCI takes into consideration locations without over the top interstates when looking at National meet locations.
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I haven't traveled far recently in an old car, but Old Toby, my '54 Aero went from California to St Louis, and from L.A. to Denver in the mid-80's, Atlanta to Rochester, NY in the early '90's. Two weekends ago, I was at the Hudson Club's eastern divisional meet in Georgia and folks drove their Hudsons from Michigan, Massachusetts, Vermont, Pennsylvania and other states not quite as far but still an impressive distance. The Vermont car broke down as it arrived in GA and went home on a rented trailer, but the others faired well. Good maintenance or modernization and there's no reason not to drive a Kaiser anywhere.
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One should consider safety and comfort factors when considering to drive long distances in an older car. Many cars from the 50's and early 60s do not have air conditioning, seat belts, let alone modern car safety features like collapsing steering columns and air bags. This offset crash test of a 1959 Chrolet Impala versus a 2009 Chevrolet Malibu gives a lot of food for thought. As much as I love my old cars, I wouldn't drive one of them as a daily driver anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g
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I guess I will be criticized but when the money is right I will own one that is very up to date.
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Just drove my '54 Special to our recent meet in Connecticut that was 300 miles away. Which was a very good time! Drove up on a 50/50 mix of state and interstate roads.Stayed in the right/slow lanes. No a/c and no power steering. Trip to the meet went fine with no issues other than road noise and some heat.
Went to the national in Kingsport, TN last year which was 500 miles away. Spent 90% of driving in the right lane of the interstates.
No car issues last year. However, the Special returned this year on a trailer towed by a U-Haul truck. Help with loading/securing the car on the trailer was provided by other members and very welcome.
I keep many extra parts in the trunk, but needed a transmission this year. Not something readily carry-able (if that is a word). Driving to the meets is half the fun & I'll continue after I find a shop to rebuild the trans.
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While this goes back awhile now, in 1998 I bought a beautifully restored and mechanically sound 1953 Kaiser Manhattan. I took very good care of it and drove it everywhere, to Northern Michigan, all over Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky and Michigan. I put over 16,000 miles on it and never had a problem. That same year I also bought a 1951 Frazer Manhattan 4 door HT. I kept that car even longer and put over 23,000 miles on it without any problems. Both cars were correctly maintained with their original spec. mechanicals. I mostly drove on secondary US and state highways just as the roads were when they were new cars. Occasionally I took Interstate highways when necessary. I think if one understands their KF vehicle, travels prepared for mechanical issues, and drives according to the vehicle’s limitations one can still enjoy going back in time to experience these cars as they were intended to be. But do not forget to take along a cell phone!
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To kind of sift through all of the comments, all appreciated, I think the best way to travel is the by-ways, to be well organized and go through your car in preparation. To know KF friends and members along the way - I would even add - to call them along the way ahead of time and introduce yourself.
The finding of the cars is the next step. I have done my research on Cadillacs and could pull the trigger on 2 of them for a total delivered in the $15,000 to $17,000 range. I've never spent that much on cars.
I did look in the June 2019 Bulletin - eBulletin that Barbara sent me. I reached out on the 53 Blue Manhattan but had to leave a message. There was no price listed. I would be hard pressed to ad 2 KF's for $15,000 in this issue.
I would not mind getting a 1st generation car, and a 2nd generation car. MY preference for 2nd generation is the 52 Manhattans. I always like the blend of 51 and 53 styling in the 52's, and just because I can - I want a Manhattan. My 2nd choice would be a 53 Manhattan. I have come to appreciate the 51's clean styling but it would have to be the right one, like a Caribbean Coral car.
For the slab siders, I want a 47-50 Frazer Manhattan, but those are hard to come by. I was pretty put off by the ad in the Bulletin for the 48 Frazer. Ideally, this would be a good car for me, but when "the dance starts at $14,000" then I think the seller wants to keep the car. Which is his prerogative.
I also liked Mark Steele's 53 Traveler, but at $10,000 or offer, that does not leave me much room to buy another KF. Nice looking car though
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The 1953 Traveler is extremely popular with the people when I take it to car shows. I have been asked to attend both the Huntington Beach and San Marino Concours De Elegance car shows these past two weekends because of its crowd appeal. The 1953 Manhattan, as I point out, was considered the most beautiful 1953 car in the world by 8 different countries, see attached ad!! People just don't see the uniqueness that Henry J. Kaiser promoted in all he did!! They appreciate the versatility of the Traveler as the first hatchback. Mark Steele's traveler is a real deal for the crowd appeal it will bring at car shows. My dad had a 1948 Traveler and a 1953 Manhattan, as you can see in the 1955 photo of our property in Downers Grove, IL. If I didn't have my Traveler, I would snatch up Mark's car in a minute. I paid much more for my traveler but I don't regret it.
Maybe you can get a nice Henry J with the rest of your money???
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I did look in the June 2019 Bulletin - eBulletin that Barbara sent me. I reached out on the 53 Blue Manhattan but had to leave a message. There was no price listed. I would be hard pressed to ad 2 KF's for $15,000 in this issue.
Oops! My bad ~ accidentally deleted ... asking price is $6500.
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Yes JFERRIS after my father restored that 51 Frazer hardtop he drove it from washington to Colorado for the national pulling a camp trailer and had no problems .. great car..