Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Kaiser Forum => Topic started by: Wildcat on July 25, 2010, 03:25:46 PM
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Hey everyone, I just picked up a 51' Deluxe and I am going to bring it back to life. Everything is original and all there from what I can tell. My first question is the 6V/12V thing. I know they are 6 volt originally, however mine has two voltage regulators on the firewall that are labeled "12V to 6V regulator". Is there any chance that it has been converted already, or are these original? It also has 12V headlights.
Actually, that's the biggest question I have for now, I'm sure there will be lots more when I get this thing running. A little more about me an the car, I am 26, so I was not around when older cars were new and because of that I missed out on a lot of experience with things like this. The car has the original 3 speed with manual overdrive, it is a 2 door, convertible, not sure if it was originally a convertible or not, and is in pretty decent shape. I know parts availability is pretty scant, however I have pretty much everything I need to get this car done. Any help would be appreciated as this is my first car project that isn't an Oldsmobile, so it's dark territory for me.
Thanks,
Zach
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Zach. Welcome to the group. Wow. You will generate a lot of discussions. Kaiser did not make convertibles in the second generation body which is 1951 and on, so it is a custom job. Apparently there are a few around, though, and they look really nice. I've only seen photos of them.
I have a '54 Manhattan 4 door. It still needs work, but I have a great time with it at shows and cruise-ins, except when it is scalding hot outside, like right now in Georgia.
Good luck with it. I will watch to see what you write about.
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All 47-55 Kaiser automobiles were 6V so your car was converted at some time. As mentioned before, KF never made a 2 door 51-5 convertible, with the exception of one or two prototypes that were built by Dietrich for KF so that they could decide whether to go to production with such a car. I know of one in Missouri that is more or less original and another is supposed to exist. Maybe that's yours!
The engine in a KF is fairly easy to work on and most parts can be had at places like NAPA and AutoZone. If your car has an automatic transmission, it'll be just about the same unit as what GM used in the same time span since KF bought transmissions from them. If yours is a standard transmission with overdrive, then it's a Borg Warner unit and parts for them are easily obtained.
Post a picture or two...it's not often that we get to see a 51 Kaiser convertible!
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The trim code is 2450, and judging by the registry there aren't any others. A lot of this car is a mystery to me, but it should turn out pretty nice. I would hate to slap a 12V battery in and hope it doesn't start on fire, but like I said I just picked it up this week so I have a little work to do before starting it and driving around. I doubt it was originally a convertible, but who knows. The rear firewall is a cobb job with regular sheet metal. The voltage regulators are about the size of hockey pucks and they are connected together on the drivers side firewall.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs099.ash2/38295_1367535956706_1480912138_30879725_8227957_n.jpg)
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Welcome to the hobby and best of luck with the project. A few things a 26 year old may not know about old cars:
There is a separate button to run the starter on a 1951, at least there was originally. If it's been converted to 12 V it may not have that any more but originally, you had to turn the ignition key to the on position and push the starter button to start it. A three speed with overdrive is really cool and fun to drive but you need to remember if the overdrive cable is pushed in, then you have to park the car in reverse it will roll as the OD had a freewheeling mechanism in it and just putting it in gear will not hold it as the wheels will turn independent of the engine in the three forward gears. If the OD control cable is pulled out, then the freewheeling mechanism is disengaged and you can park it in the forward gears. I keep my OD in all the time so I always park my cars in reverse. Works fine. If the car has set a long time, the gas tank could be full of sludge so when you do try to start it, you may want to disconnect the fuel line at the pump and use a gas can with clean fresh gas to start it. If you have to install plug wires, the distributor turns counter clockwise on the KF engines so don't make the mistake of getting the firing order backwards. Check the lube in the transmission and rearend before driving it very far. If either is empty, the standard 80/90 gear lube is what you fill them with.
Keep us posted.
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Factory prototype convertibles were all built off the Club Coupe body, not the 2-door sedan (model on the tag would be 512 and body would be 4 if a 2-door sedan, 7 if a Club Coupe, or 3 if a Business Coupe which used the Club Coupe platform). There would also be a number beginning "K-" on the firewall tag at the SPEC-FO heading on the lower row of the body tag. That would identify special equipment put into the car...factory prototypes should also have a 999 and 888 number for paint & trim.
Please post the car serial number (the door post tag, begins with K512), paint & trim #'s and the body serial number off the small firewall tag (please include the prefix as well). If you post that, I may be able to tell you a bit about the car as it was buiilt. Please also include the SCHED and ITEM numbers.
Thanks
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
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Actually, that car doesn't look all that bad. I think you have a very solid foundation from which to build a unique ride.
It's light years better than what we're facing with this project:
http://kaiserfrazercars.com/51f%20Nbr1.JPG
It's a 1951 Frazer Manhattan hardtop and is serial number 1. After a good power washing it should look a whole lot better...I hope!
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Well the rest of my tags are:
Model 512
Body 4
Paint 265
trim 2450
dr 1
TR 4
AG 4
The body number is 5124-2929 and the serial is K512-022367. I have some floorboard work to do on the drivers side, but other than that it's pretty straight with no rust. The fuel tank has been empty for some time, so I might have some rust issues there, but it has been inside and it's pretty dry in Utah so it might be okay. What is the best source for brake parts? More specifically cylinder rebuilt parts and shoes? I really should go through all of that before trying to roll anywhere.
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Wildcat: If it has been a long time since the engine was turned over, I recommend that you go to any marine parts supply and pick a spray can of Marine Fogging Oil. Remove all the spark plugs and spray into each cylinder a short 3 second burst of oil. It looks like shaving creme, but will quickly dissolve coating the entire cylinder bore. This is a well known boaters trick that is done to prevent damage on a "dry start" engine that has been stored for a long time. After doing this, wait several days and try to turn over manually. With fresh oil in the crankcase and a new oil filter, you are now ready to turn over with the starter. Do this before putting any gas in the tank. If you have already cleaned the lines and carb and put in fresh gas, pull the coil wire out of the coil to prevent starting the engine until you have successfully turned it over with the starter. You don't want 1500 rpms on a dry engine. My buddy poured fresh gas into his carb on a vintage corvette that had sat for several years and with a new battery it fired right up and then blew up due to a "dry start" condition. The engine block was destroyed.
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There was a 51 Kaiser convertible conversion for sale in Utah a few years ago and I understood that it had a '54 Chevy top assembly either installed or available. The owner advertised it in the Bulletin I believe and then the widow offered it for sale for about $3,000 which was about what he had in it at the time. I thought about going to look at it but it was a long way from home and after I found my own convertible conversion I forgot about it. The picture does not look like it has any top assembly or side windows. It looks like it will be a great looking car when finished. It is too bad that K-F did not go thru with the convertible experiment as they would sure be collectible today.
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Gordie...are you ever gonna restore that K convert you bought? If not, I just might be interested!
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for many parts your local autostore may be able to help you out. Kaiser Bill has a cross reference list of parts available and his number is 435-454-3098 and he has some online at http://kaiserbill.com/Parts-Cross-Reference/Parts-Cross-Reference.pdf I hope this will help you out.
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Ok, from the numbers posted
car is (or rather, was) a 1951 Kaiser Deluxe 2-door sedan. The original color was Garden Green Metallic, with Garden Green upholstery. Transmission when built was 3-speed with overdrive. The body was the 1,929th 2-door sedan built. If I had SCHED and ITEM number I might be able to better date it. The fact that Accessory Group #4 indicates this was the original group for 1951 Kaiser Deluxe models, and was replaced by Accessory Group 6 in June of 1950. The Operating Report for the 10 months ending October 31 1950 shows that Over 8,700 2-doors were built by this point and over 8,300 were already sold to dealers or distributors. Bottom line is that the car is an early 2-door, that had a body built prior to June 15, 1950 and was probably finished and shipped during June 1950.
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Wow, thanks for all of the info and help. I am working a lot of overtime right now, but when thats done it's time to get at it. I know Kaiser Bill isn't too far away, so I might have to make a trip down there sometime.
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Gordie...are you ever gonna restore that K convert you bought? If not, I just might be interested!
The '51 is now residing in MO and I have not done much with it other than gather some needed NOS parts and I have been thinking about what kind of drive train and suspension to use. Because it is already modified and the frame is nicely reinforced I thought about making a great driver out of it by having modern drive train and air conditioning. The supposedly rebuilt 226 is installed with a chain holding up the rear of the engine. If interested threaten me with an interesting trade! This car has been in the club for at least 40 years. There is a before picture of it in the 2006 roster at the beginning of the CA section and is probably from 40 years ago at a K-F meet.
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Joe Frazer, that's a great project--51 Frazer hardtop is very cool. Looks like a lot of work! Wildcat, very cool convertible, sounds fun to restore. Yes, it's dry in Utah but salty in winter, which can mean the end of an otherwise good car. My '66 Pontiac's quarter panels were so rusted you had to be careful or you would lose stuff out of the trunk!
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So are these original? If not I think it has already been converted to 12 volt. They are on the drivers side firewall and they say "Voltage Regulator 12 volts to 6 volts". It is wired into another box on the fire wall that has a fuse on it and to the ignition switch in the dash, not the starter button, but the keyed switch. Also I pulled the radio out and it is a 12V negative ground unit. I am fairly certain it is 12v, but I also don't want to throw a battery in it and cook a car that cant be replaced.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs215.snc4/39091_1385196438207_1480912138_30923069_6613250_n.jpg)
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Your voltage reducers are not original equipment. They probably date to the late 50s or early 60s.
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Cool, thanks. Probably take a break from body work and run this thing this weekend. All of my pre-run checks and maintenance are done so we should be good to go.
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Great news gang, one more Kaiser is going to be back on the road soon. Got the engine running, didn't move yet though, still have to go through the brake system before that happens. A few notes though, the fuel pump is an aftermarket electric job mounted on the frame, not original, so where does the original fuel pump go? It looks like there is a block off plate on the right side of the engine. I'll probably stay with an electric for the sake of, well lets just say electric fuel pumps are where it's at, no offense to any purists out there, but I would like to get an original and mount it for the sake of looks. I tried the rest of the electrical system, and well I've got my work cut out for me on that one. 60 year old wires are no fun. I almost burned my 69 Oldsmobile to the ground so I am a little leery about original wires after that.
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Since Kaisers are notorious for vapor-locking on hot days, I'd say you were wise to leave the electric pump on it. You are correct, the original mounts on the passenger side of the engine, toward the front
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If you want the authentic look but modern drivability, might I suggest bolting on a dummy gas pump over the block off plate. A neat thing that a Studebaker guy did was have a hidden electrical pump with a hidden switch under the dash, then ran the gas line THROUGH the not working mechanical pump (it wasn't working, but he removed the actuator arm anyway) and out so that it LOOKED entirely stock. Never got caught out on judging as he set it up so that the gas went through the glassbowl as well. Means that he had to have working gaskets in all the spots necessary for a mechanical pump. Just a thought.
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Fuel system work time now, hate it. I have my tank out because it needs to be sealed and
I figured it would be a good opportunity to check my sending unit. I am getting 82.5 to 85 ohms through the range. Is this within the acceptable range for a Kaiser? The thing also looks like it's 60 years old so I might just get a new one, is there any source for them? Thanks, Zach.
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Wildcat: KF products use King-Seely guages like Ford and other independent car manufacturers.
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Well a big update... Finally painted and starting to attach trim. The whole fuel tank thing went really well, looks and works like new, and no leaks so bonus on that. Any tips on restoring stainless? I have a lot of scratches and dings to work on. Also I need to completely re-wire the car so that is going to be a project in and of itself. I was thinking of using a painless harness, just need some new light sockets.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs328.ash2/60833_1424618783741_1480912138_31011317_5329523_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs632.snc4/59266_1424617303704_1480912138_31011309_4311136_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs629.snc4/58968_1424618983746_1480912138_31011318_4326747_n.jpg)
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That's impressive. Keep us posted on the progress.
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So I am trying to decipher this wiring thing and with the condition of everything it is proving to be a challenge. I was wondering does anyone know how the overdrive system is wired? From what I can tell there are two wires coming from a box on the firewall and there is a switch under the gas pedal that ties in somewhere. Thanks in advance.
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To make your life easy, I suggest that you get a complete wiring harness from McBride. He has a great product and excellent instructions.
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Bob will also sell just the OD harness. I just replaced the one in my 50K and it made all of the difference.
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Hope your OD connecter that plugs into the relay on your Firewall is not broken.
Those can be very hard to find.
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Do you really want to spend excess money? You can rewire a Kaiser using the diagram in the shop manual and buying sockets as needed from NAPA. As for the OD plug (assuming you have a relay with a horizontal fuse), there are 4 blades on the relay. Use a regular 3 blade headlight socket and a single female blade fitting. Use the headlight socket on the front & side blades and single fitting on the rear blade. That way the single fitting is hidden.
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Also, don't use a regular fuse on the OD relay. When the OD solenoid engages on an old car, it can draw 30 amps momentarily (look at your ammeter!) and either blow the fuse then or damage it so that the OD will not engage a second time. Buy a 30 amp circuit breaker that will fit in a Buss fuse receptacle.
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Luckily the connector is still alive, just needs to be re-pinned. I'm about an hour into this and I am already pulling my hair out. Where does the go pedal switch come into play? I don't have a factory manual or a diagram so I'm kind of in the dark on this one. I am also trying to wrap my head around the whole brake light/turn signal switch situation. I picked up a painless harness, but adapting a new harness to a 60 year old car is an adventure in and of itself. I did finally find the brake switch though -dumb. My blower motor, wiper motor, and OD solenoid are going to 6 volt still, but everything else will be 12V, so wiring voltage regulators into this whole thing is nothing short of a treat. I did manage to keep the old harness somewhat intact, however I couldn't find the brake switch so those wires were diked in a fit of rage and I broke a terminal off the starter switch on the dash.. FML
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The overdrive unit is a KF car is controlled by two units, the governor...the round topped unit at the very right rear of the transmission, and the rail switch, the small sqaure one at the left rear. The overdrive relay is energized by 6V from the battery and that line runs from the relay back to the rail switch. The rail switch is there to prevent OD operation when the dash handle is pulled out. When the handle is in, the rail switch contacts are closed and 6V flows to the governor.
Once the car reaches the minimum engagement speed for OD, contacts in the governor close and this makes the circuit complete which then allows 6V to the solenoid, that's the can shaped item on the left side of the transmission. Momentarily lifting ones foot off the gas allows the solenoid to engage, placing the car in OD. Once you slow down below the minimum speed, the governor contacts reopen and OD is disengaged, although you still will free wheel...meaning that there is no engine braking.
The kickdown switch, the unit under the gas pedal is the line circuit line that I described above. It works, when the gas pedal is pushed down far enough, to momentarily interrupt the 6V to the coil and this shuts off the flow of electricity to the solenoid, causing it to disengage. This gives you the effect of a passing gear.
The fuse mentioned earlier is a 30A automotive type. I've never had one go...but do keep a quality spare handy just in case.
All of this is sort of oversimplified, but should give you an idea as to the theory of operation.
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The OD solednoid will have 4 terminals. BAT is 12 ga and goes to the starter soledoid. IGN is 16 ga and goes to the neg side of the coil. TH is 16 ga and goes to an 'A' terminal on the kickdown switch. (This is one of the two terminals closest to the floorboard on the kickdown switch..both are 'A'). The last terminal on the relay, SOL is 12 ga and goes to the #4 terminal on the OD solenoid on the transmission. The other trans solenoid wire, 16 ga runs to a B terminal on the kickdown switch. (The 'B' terminals are the two farthest from the floorboard on the kickdown switch).
Of the two remaining terminals on the kickdown switch, run a 16 ga wire from the remaining 'A' terminal to the rail switch (see my explanation in the earlier post). From the other terminal on the rail switch, run a 16 ga wire back to the governor at the right rear of the transmission.
The last open terminal on the kickdown switch should be a 'B' terminal. Run a 16 ga wire from it to the positive side of the coil. This completes the OD circuit. With the OD handle on the dash pushed in, the circuit will energize above 28 mph and kick in when your foot is lifted from the gas pedal.
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(http://www.affirmationpower.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/head-explode.jpg)
I can wire a fighter jet but a 60 year old car is giving me hell. If I were to do this as it was originally it wouldn't be so bad, but trying to modernize it is really proving to be a challenge. The markings on the harness aren't helping either.
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Hey JoeFrazer -- Mind if I add your overdrive explanation into the 53K Guidelines?? Great explanation
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Go for it.
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All KF overdrive solenoids are fused at 20 amps, not 30 as was (and often is) stated. Check the diagram shown below which is right out of the KF shop manual. A 30 amp fuse is longer than a 20 and likely would not fit the holder on the relay. The overdrive relay has four terminals, the solenoid has 2.
Here's how I would explain the electrical workings;
There are two circuits: The control circuit and the controlled circuit. The controlled circuit (the one that provides 6v to the solenoid) is from the hot wire terminal on the starter solenoid which is connected directly to the battery, then through the fuse (1 BAT.), to the normally open contacts on the relay. The other side of the normally open contacts on the relay (4 SOL.) goes to the solenoid (4) on the overdrive unit itself on the back the transmission. All the wires used on the controlled circuit must be 12 gauge - that is very important.
The control circuit (the one that controls if the solenoid gets energized) is from the hot terminal on the coil (-), so it only works when the switch is on, over to one side of the coil on the relay (2IGN). The other side of the coil on the relay (3TH) goes to the normally closed contacts on the kickdown switch (A), then to the normally open contacts on the rail switch (the O.D. Lock-out Switch) which close when the cable is pushed in, then to the terminal on the governor switch which is normally open. The other side of the governor switch goes to ground. This circuit is wired with 16 gauge wire.
When the car reaches approximately 30 mph, the governor switch closes, which provides a ground for the relay coil circuit, hence energizing the relay causing the relay contacts to close (they appear to be closed in the diagram but they are normally open which means they close when coil is energized). This puts 6 volts on the solenoid which then pushes the pawl into the control plate in the OD unit. Let your foot off the gas and the pawl slips in and the car operates in overdrive.
There is a third circuit which is used for kickdown. There is a wire which goes from the distributor side of the coil(+) to the normally open contacts on the kickdown switch (B) which then goes to a set of normally open contacts inside the solenoid (6). When the solenoid is energized, those contacts (6) close. When you press the accelerator all the way down, it closes the contacts on the kickdown switch (B) which provides a path from the coil (+) to ground causing the engine to misfire. The torque reversal allows the pawl to retract and the car is no longer in overdrive. This circuit too uses 16 gauge wire.
Here's a diagram of the circuit
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a4da25b3127ccef59cbaa654e600000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520140405025034913.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Well put...thanks Lowell!
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Lowell - Where did you get the idea that a 30 amp buss fuse was longer than a 20 amp? I've got AGC 20 and AGC 30 buss type fuses that are both 30 mm long. Truth is there are several lengths of automotive type buss fuses. For instance, a SFE type is 25 mm long and and there are 2 sizes shorter. A higher amperage fuse in the same length will have a thicker filament.
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Well I did say "likely" didn't I? The 30 amp that is used on the Henry J headlamp switch, which is the most common one used in the older cars, is longer and won't fit in the socket on the relay. The one used in the main line on many cars of the era is also this type. When I had Bob McBride make the harness for my '53 J, which has an inline fuse as opposed to the fuse on the headlight switch that the '51s and '52s have, he used the shorter socket and yes, I did have to locate some shorter 30 amp fuses but in many cases, they are too long. The OD is fused at 20 in any case and I've seldom ever blown one. The only time I did was when the solenoid was gummed up and didn't engage fast enough. Once it was cleaned out and freed up it never blew a fuse again. But that's the whole point of having a fuse in the circuit. If the solenoid doesn't fully engage and open the contacts to take the "pull in" coil out of the circuit, the solenoid and associated wiring will get hot very fast. The fuse prevents this and it did its job. A 30 amp may not blow fast enough and by the time it does, a person could have a burned up solenoid, the contacts on the relay could be welded together and in the worst case, a fire so it's important that the proper components are used.
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Thanks Fid, exactly what I was looking for. So far I have everything routed and the headlights wired along with some of the engine. I don't suppose you have one of those fancy pictures for the turn signal switch?
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The factory wiring diagram for 51 K includes the turn signals. This is in the factory shop manual. I sell CDs that are exact copies of factory in pdf format. I also have a CD that is just wiring diagrams for ALL KF models. The advantage of the pdf files is that the can be "exploded" easlily up to and above 800 percent for easy tracing on screen. Details about all CDs can be found on my website at http://www.kfnut.com (http://www.kfnut.com)
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No, I don't have the signal light wiring diagram unfortunately. The diag I posted is from the Henry J shop manual but it's the same in the Kaiser shop manuals and any other car's manual that used the Borg-Warner overdrive set up.
Ben's CD would be a good investment for anyone that needs this type of information.
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Yeah, I would like to get my hands on one of your CD's Ben. Kind of wish I knew about you two months ago.
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Do you know the history of your car? Was it a 2dr coupe or 2dr sedan? Does it have a top, if so what was the make before becoming part of the Kaiser?
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Sedan. I thought I saw on here somewhere that someone makes new windshield moldings. Is this true, or am I seeing things? I'm pretty close to drive around time and my windshield molding is falling apart and it would be nice to have something to stop bugs. By the way everything is wired except for the OD solenoid, maybe do that tomorrow, the horns sound really cool.
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Your going to have a fun car....take some goggles on that test drive and keep us posted :)
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Wildcat, is there a convertable top? Or top frame work? The club has windshields and Rudy has the moldings.
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I have a top off of a Cadillac something or other, I don't possess the skill or patience to install it though. Does anyone know the best way to get a hold of this Rudy character? I found his number on Kaiser Bill's site, but things can be outdated. Also please tell me there is something that goes between the bumper and body. I don't have anything that looks like it would go there but there is a giant gap that looks like butt.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs358.ash2/63802_1439353472099_1480912138_31038279_7643924_n.jpg)
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There is a one piece filler panel that goes between the bumper and body on the 51s. Attached to it is a flat piece of rubber that acts as a gasket between the panel and bumper. They are not easy to find in decent shape since the rubber allowed the panel to retain water and rust.
I assume you have Rudy's phone nbr and have tried without success to reach him. I've had luck at around the noon hour (eastern).
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Yes, Rudy's in Calif. and he answers (sometimes) in the mornings. Keep trying and eventually you'll get him. I've bought many of his products and they are good.