Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on September 07, 2010, 05:01:06 AM
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As of today, September 7 2010, I have received NO word from anyone officially that judging was even discussed at the National Convention held in June. My concern on this is that I specifically asked the officers and directors of the club to make some decisions on a standard format for the information BEFORE ANY DRAFTS ARE COMPLETED, GIVEN A FIRST PASS CHECK & GET FIRST-PASS TEST.
I know that Jim Betts put a lot of work into what was supposed to be a hand-held summary for field use which would be tied into the main set of standards. I also know that this summary document--2 pages, per request of the Chief Judge--burst out to over 40 pages (I shudder to think what the main set of standards for a car would be like based on that). I also know that certain parties planned to show this at the 2010 National even though the material was not consistent with the development brief. I do not know if anything was shown, as again, nobody officially (club president, designate, etc) contacted me with status.
I am out of the loop therefore I am out of the project.
End of comments
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Yes, it seems that judging at National Conventions will continue to be meaningless and pointless.
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All of this work on the judging standards is for the cars and the members use in restoring the cars correctly. When they are finished for all of the different models they will be the accepted standard for our club. Lets get them finished and to the members and they will be used by everyone. It is a huge undertaking but coming along well. Jack, please let us know what cars or models need help and we can ask for volunteers to contribute to their own specialties.
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Many associations are opting for not judging in favor of getting more cars to their events. There are many in our group that get extremly mad about the judging and just won't come back. It is my opinion that ours is more a social group and we could get more car participation without judging.we could still have a guideline for restoration work which would be very helpful. Many cannot afford or put in the amount of time required to get a gold. Let's just get more cars and more people to all kaiser events.
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I, for one, will never be able to do, or afford a Bronze/Silver/Gold restoration of any car. I would much prefer that I and my car be welcomed for having made it it all the way there <ggg>.
I would rather have cars shown and chosen by judges to point out correct and not so correct ways of doing the details, and what they are looking for. As well, Kaiser, like Studebaker, has some very oddball cars which are 'correct' even if they don't appear to be--the odd colour combos like Red and not matching at all Maroon for interior and exterior colours, or the sheer cussedness of Carolinas that are loaded to the hilt with options. Even cars which have documentation to show KF built them that way, even if supposedly they didn't do that (like, a "friend" on the line, or at head office who authorized something for a good customer) If there were sessions at the Meet where photos from digital cameras could be used on screens to point out how to do stuff, that would be great. Even the tricks to get close to something no longer available, such as one example I heard of scanning original kick panels, and then printing the image in corrected colour out on special paper as an applique over a backing board. Even little stuff like those guide lights which were used by GM, but also by Kaiser as backup lights, and Studebaker on Hawks as park lights, with the subtle differences in bodies and lenses so you know which is which. That's the sort of meet I'd like to attend, well, beside the talking and eating and drinking and eating and talking and eating and talking and touring around!!
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It is fun to see the beautiful restorations all lined up but it is just as much fun for me to see a nice original. That is what we are trying to make our restorations look like and those originals have details that a restoration can never offer. The nice original cars in our club are being restored and they will lose that originality completely when they get repainted and reupholstered. At the Queen Mary meet many years ago I sponsored a trophy for the best original car. Well, they made me the judge and I picked a plain jane 1947 Kaiser that had not even been polished for the meet but it was as original as it could be and with a good clean up it would have been a gem. I hoped that the club would pick up on that original class idea but they never did. One day they will all be gone and we will be restoring our car to look like everyone else's. You are correct about the smaller manufacturers making little changes to the assembly lines for favors. I bought my Kaiser from the Brother of the original owner who worked for Kaiser and walked with his car down the assembly line. He did not want the Darrin emblem installed on the deck lid even though the holes had already been drilled. It still has it's original paint and there are two dimples on the deck lid where the paint did not quite cover the drilled holes. I found the Darrin emblem under the back seat years later. I wouldn't change it for anything even though it is not quite correct. How can you argue with original paint?
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One of the peoples' sentimental favourites in our small Atlantic Canada Club SDC is an HPOF 39? Commander. It has a few dents in its fenders from the first owner from new parking by sound throughout her long life and ownership of this car (over 50 years), and some scratches in the paint. The second and current owner just verrrry carefully cut the paint with very fine grade polisher to remove some of the oxidization without removing paint colour too much. At some spots, the paint is quite thin and there is a hint of the primer, but overall it is still the factory medium green. He just waxed it and after that, he has done no more restoration of the car at all, other than keeping it clean, lubed and detailed, dry and free from moth and too much sun, or damp. And he drives the car too for family outings, never trailered!
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Jim B, I have to agree with you. While I try to get things "right" on my cars, I do it because it's a labor of love, not because I want applause and a $12 trophy. And I'll never be one of those people that will dump my entire 401K or even my weekly paycheck, into a car restoration.
I have no problem having a car judged so I can see what things I need to work on or correct but I really couldn't care less about getting an award for it. If someone such as yourself works on the old cars to preserve them and keep them on the road and drive them, that in and of itself is praise worthy if you ask me.
If someone wants to know what's correct I'll do my best to help them, if not, I'll enjoy their car(s) just the same. There is one thing that I do not care for and anyone on these boards has seen examples of it from me, and that is mis-representation. Having said that, even if a car is misrepresented, that does not make it a bad car.
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Down the road in the town of Kensington, is an original Model A true HPOF. The first owner bought it new, and early in its life, it went off the Island by the ferry over to Pictou NS, the town nearest the ferry terminal. And then it came back, and was never off the Island again, until sometime after 1993, when the original owner drove it once more over on the ferry to Pictou. (That is pronounced PICKED-oh!) which was some 55 years later. So the car AND the owner were off-Island both TWICE only. <g>. There is a well-regarded body and paint man in Summerside, about 15 miles away from me, who has his own early Model T and who has carefully, lovingly, and beautifully restored many a Model T and A. Mr Campbell would never let him touch his car, though--as he wanted to keep that car entirely original as from the factory, warts, bits of rust, scrapes, faded blue paint, and all. Nothing was ever "upgraded" either--he early on bought enough 'new' spare parts that he has never has to resort to anything of recent manufacture, from light bulbs to whathaveyou. Mind you, some of those parts have been very carefully stored, through children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, several moves, and dozens of other workaday cars.
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My 1951 Kaiser coupe is my fourth one. I always liked them and bought a nice one but kept upgrading to get a better one. I finally found one that was all original with thirty thousand miles about twenty six years ago and my upgrading is now complete for that model. I started the restoration on a Graham Paige Frazer a couple of years ago but as I got into it I found a very nice original in Florida that just needed some chrome work. Someone had painted the grill and hubcaps silver so I'm now in the process of getting that done and it did not need any interior work so it should turn out pretty nice and for much less money than it would have cost to completely restore the first one. I would rather have an original over a restored car anytime. I guess it is not a good idea to get a car with too low mileage. I bought a 1975 Ford Pinto with 609 original miles. It is brand new. I have owned it for five years now and it still has 609 miles. I am going to sell it as I do not want to put more miles on it and what fun is it to have a car that you can not drive and enjoy.
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Why can't there be, or is there already, the option to not have your vehicle judged but yet still shown at the conventions? I too will never have the money for a complete frame-off, 100% correct restoration, but I am trying to do the best job that I can with the '48.
Gordie, I am with you, there is something to be said about taking the time and effort to maintain and operate a 60 year old car, even if it isn't showroom shiny. Like Jim, I too would appreciate judging to be a guideline for those who want to come as close to original as possible as well as for those that have the time and money to obtain it. Fid, I completely understand that getting things right is a labor of love, especially if you do all of your own work like I do...under the car on a creeper, covered in oil and raccoon hairs from the previous tenants, using all hand tools because I can't afford air tools, lets just say I get it. That being said, judging standards can be a quite useful tool, albeit discouraging at times...but I would love a copy before I get too far into my frame-on restoration ;)
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At our meets, you can choose whether to have your car judged. It is not mandatory.
Judging at any meet, KF or any other club, has always been a hot topic. No one judge, or process, is perfect so all we can do is hope we get it as right as possible. Due to the cost of getting a car restored to factory specs, and the increased scarcity of parts, I forsee the day when judging is a thing of the past for most clubs. When that'll happen with the KFOCI...who knows...
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From talking to people at the AACA and other organizations, as well as car owners themselves, at least for the time being the KFOCI has painted themselves into a major corner on judging. As many are aware, there is no factory archive or factory reference facility like Studebaker and the Big 3 have so people can check out what is correct for a car when it comes to things Kaiser-Frazer. As a result, the judging at a National Convention of the KFOCI became a gage as to how correct a car is. A gold award from a National Convention is a significant selling point when it comes to commanding a high price for a car (and multiple gold awards ups things further). Unfortunately, the word is starting to get out that KFOCI judging at a National Convention is, at times, not really worth anything becuase judges have no idea what they are doing and/or the information used for standards revolved around what a particular parts vendor was selling.
The effort to fix the information side of things (so the judge side of things could then be worked on) was behind the push this year for written standards that car owners could have access to as a restoration/maintenance guide. Again, as I stated at the beginning of this post, since the National Convention this year, I have received NO WORD FROM ANY OFFICER OR DIRECTOR OF THE CLUB THAT WE ARE DOING ANYTHING! Considering the amount of time that has passed since the 2010 National Convention, I can only take this as a decision reflecting abandonment of trying to fix what is wrong. At least at this time, anyone claiming to be working on written standards should be suspect and un-sanctioned unless an official statement comes from the club president. At least that is my opinion.
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As many of you know, I have been a proponent of standards for the Darrin for years, even before I got the job as Registry Manager I was laughed off the stage in Chicago, and..well I won't go into what happened in Texas. I have worked many many hours on the phone, talking to owners of unrestored cars to determine how they were built. I have driven as long as 4 hours to review an original car. I have had very heated discussions with many who have claimed to know what is correct for the Darrin based upon "experts" who judge them. Additionally, I personally invited the original unrestored car to the Texas Convention so that others could see this gem! Finally, I have been trying to determine breakpoints for certain items that had changed throughout the Darrin builds. This hasn't been very successful. I published "proposed standards" in my Newsletters, asking for comments. I have received 4, as in FOUR, comments in the past 2 years. Nonetheless, I have made the document available to Officers of the Club. I too am very frustrated that these efforts have gone nowhere. At least my list can be used by those who want to restore their cars to the way they were built--based upon data, not heresay.
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Thanks to all of you who have worked so hard to get these judging guidelines completed...No one else really knows the hours that go into the research especially the Club officers who do not hear very much about guidelines. Who are these guidelines for? They are not for some of the officers who really do not know what is going on with them but they are for the Club members and for our cars. As Jack pointed out there are no archives for us to check but we sure have a wonderful Club Historian who does his best to answer all of our questions regarding the Club and our cars. Because he has built a fantastic library at his own expense he is able to research our questions and give answers that are interesting and helpful to all of us. There are very few good libraries of Kaiser Frazer research material and most of them are privately owned and funded and thus are personal collections. Not every collection is willing to share the material as well as having the time and skills to pass the valuable information on. Jack has not only done a wonderful job of keeping us informed about our cars but has invested thousands of hours poring over his material to try to start a meaningful set of guidelines for every year and model of our cars. It has certainly been frustrating for him to be ignored and shot down by countless club officers over the last ten years and you can see that he is discouraged. We do not really need anyone but our own members to make this research pay off for us. The guidelines are well along but need final touching up and that we can do as volunteers as many of us are very knowledgable on certain models and have information to make the guidelines better and better. They may never be perfect but they will be as good and useful as we can make them. These guidelines will be our Club's archives as they will be well researched and everything will be documented. No more trying to remember what happened fifty years ago or being influenced by people who are trying to sell you parts that they swear are correct. Let's all help get this project finished. It will be fantastic!
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Hear! Hear! Hear! It almost sounds like it is time for the Club Members to take back their club.
Jack, you have done an absolutely fantastic "job". Job in quotation marks, because people normally get paid for work, and/or get bonuses for superlative work. Lets call it a 'life's work'. Thank you for sharing your research, time, and effort with everyone.
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I grew up in and around the automobile industry and saw boxes of factory materials destroyed each year because they were considered "surplus" and in general not worth keeping. When I got saddled with editing the QUARTERLY in 1976 and found nobody wanted to send in anything to be used, I began building up materials as filler as well as items pertaining to cars I owned or planned on someday owning.
I never kept track as to how much I spent for all this ...had it put the money in the bank I probably would have enough today to buy a really nice HJ and a Willys station wagon. However, I figured that there would be a fairly good collection of factory materials that could be used for future reference long after I'm gone. I just need to find a good, safe home for it (FORGET IT, AACA LIBRARY!) when I'm gone.
PS; I am bringing a truckload of stuff (2000 Ford Ranget XLT short box truck) for the Hospitality Room at the 2010 Midwest division meet so people have things to read through. It may be the last time this amount of my material will be out and about.
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Jack, It was at one time kind of a mystery what was stored by the Club at the AACA Museum. I believe that that collection has been retrieved by the Club but who now has it and what was in it? Anything significant? Does this collection belong to the Club and do members have access to it? How do we volunteer to work on the judging guidelines? I would like to offer to help on the Graham Paige Frazer and '51 Kaiser Deluxe and I am sure that there are others who would like to help. Let's all jump in and help to get this major project finished and to the members.
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Gents,
I too will volunteer to work on judging standards for 53-54 Kaiser Manhattans. Although I do not have a collection of data, just cars that came from the factory (i think?). I know that when I did my restoration I did not use factory hardware for many of the screws, nuts, and bolts and other attaching hardware, I just used NAPA or other commercial hardware that in the strictest sense would be a no no but I wanted a reliable driver and do not have the funds to be strictly original factory production. Maybe we need to consider different classes for judging; i.e. preservation, restoration, daily driver, and modified? What ever we do we need to accommodate as many Kaiser/Frazer etal, owners as possible, including the younger generation for if not, soon there will be no-one in the club! John
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You know Terry, the largest turn out of Darrins at any National Meet was at the Nashville National (28 is the number I believe). Art Griffin brought his drag raced Darrin and I commented on the "Z-ed" section on the rear of the frame thinking that was part of the drag race modification. Art set me straight that was correct. I had not seen a bare Darrin chassis at that time and it cemented my opinion that most Darrin owners have no idea of what the car looks like under the body.
Basically, I believe most Darrin owners will not bring out their car unless they expect to win the grand prize. That is unfortunate because a Club isn't entirely or even predominately about winning prizes. It is about learning about your car or teaching some one who may not know as much as you do.
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I refer any inquiries about stuff the club was SUPPOSED TO OWN to the KFOCI President. For more than a year I have wanted the club to formally request an explaination from the AACA regarding Mr. Moskowitz's comment (he is or at least was AACA President at the time) that while the KFOCI paid money to the AACA for housing a collection and that an agreement was signed, "it was never consumated" (Mr. Moskowitz's words) therefore there was never any material in the AACA Library belonging to the club and any materials donated to the AACA Library was considered the property of the AACA Library.
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Who authorized the AACA to store K-F Club material. Was it a doner or an officer of the club? Who signed the agreement? It seems that they should follow thru to get it returned especially if KFOC paid to have this stuff stored. Just curious!
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Jack, Gordie: You need to ask Randy Rutherford, NOT the current President, to explain the details of the initiative where by KF materials were to be stored with the AACA Library. The Club did NOT own these materials.
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In his Spring 2009 Darrin Newsletter/Roster, Dave Antram stated that he made a donation of funds from the Darrin Roster to the AACA Library. These funds are to be used "to buy archival preservation materials"..."as a result, past Darrin Rosters, newsletters, photos, etc. will now have a safe and secure place to exist for all future admirers of our cars to easily reference them".
In the same Newsletter he stated that the "offical KF factory photographer, Russ Spalding has kindly begun to donate much of his personal vast collection of original photographs, blueprints and documents from his career to the library".
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Thanks guys, Randy is usually at Hershey so I will try to talk to him. I will be there in a month for the Hershey swap meet and it would be great to see what is now in the AACA Library re: Kaiser-Frazer. There may be some surprises.
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Ok, here goes...both barrels!
Randy Rutherford proposed an item to the board of directors where the club would pay the AACA Library $500.00 per year for the "storage and conservation of a KFOCI Club Archive". I first got word of this 2 days before the Business Meeting of the club that year, and asked for more information as I had been told since I became Club Historian that there IS AND NEVER WAS A CLUB OWNED ARCHIVE OF MATERIALS!
Randy, if memory serves correct paid the first year's cost out of his own pocket and the club members at the Business Meeting or the Board of Directors on their own (this point was never made clear to me and since minutes of Business Meetings are rarely if ever released to the membership-a possible violation of club policies) approved and the then President of the club signed off on the agreement with the AACA. The AACA agrees that such an agreement was entered into, signed by both parties, and that monies were paid for 2 years (the second year paid by the club).
The deal--as Randy Rutherford presented it to the club--was that items donated to the KFOCI collection at the library would get a tax release from the AACA (which is a 501c3 corp and can legally do this) and then pass the materials on to the collection. Not long after the stuff was signed off, a former K-F employee who is also a club member in Colorado donated his personal factory collection to the AACA LIBRARY. Randy worked on him to actually donate to the AACA, not the KFOCI (Randy told the person that the KFOCI fought too much about things so nothing should go to the club...that's the donors own statement).
I spoke to Mike Knittle about the situation and he said he was going to look into it. That's why contact Mike.
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Well, it seems like if we ever want to have a Kaiser-Frazer archive collection we will have to go to the AACA Library to view it. There are several major literature collections in the US and the material is well preserved and available for viewing. The AACA is one as well as the Henry Ford Museum, The Detroit Public Library and the Philadelphia Free Library. I have done research at all but the Philadelphia Library and their collections are overwhelming. It is great that this valuable material is being saved. It is not too hard to make up a collection of most of the sales literature offered by Kaiser Frazer but private collections amassed by employees and officers of the Company are priceless and unique and it is wonderful that it will be donated somewhere and will be available for viewing. If you want to view almost every piece of sales literature ever printed by K-F go to Ben Walkers fine site where it is all illustrated.
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Be advised that I was informed by the AACA there is a 25.00 charge just to find out if they have anything. Visitors are NOT allowed to handle any materials in their collections (I can see some reason behind this, especially on really old stuff) but they will make copies for you at a "nominal fee".
Similar policies are also posted on the AACA website for the library.
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As many of you know, I have been a proponent of standards for the Darrin for years, even before I got the job as Registry Manager I was laughed off the stage in Chicago, and..well I won't go into what happened in Texas. I have worked many many hours on the phone, talking to owners of unrestored cars to determine how they were built. I have driven as long as 4 hours to review an original car. I have had very heated discussions with many who have claimed to know what is correct for the Darrin based upon "experts" who judge them. Additionally, I personally invited the original unrestored car to the Texas Convention so that others could see this gem! Finally, I have been trying to determine breakpoints for certain items that had changed throughout the Darrin builds. This hasn't been very successful. I published "proposed standards" in my Newsletters, asking for comments. I have received 4, as in FOUR, comments in the past 2 years. Nonetheless, I have made the document available to Officers of the Club. I too am very frustrated that these efforts have gone nowhere. At least my list can be used by those who want to restore their cars to the way they were built--based upon data, not heresay.
Terry,
There is The biggest problem with "standards" is that when you start making statements that are "always" and "never" about a car you you are often wrong.
Certain standards can be established with certaintly - i.e. the cars had a fiberglass body. If a car showed up with an aluminum body and a 350 Chevy V8 one would know something was not right. But there are several points of contention with Darrins, that few will ever agree on.
A case in point, we met at the at Iola last year and had a nice conversation and a discussion about my car. I have owned my car, #173 since 1987, when I purchased the car it had just turned over 20,000 miles and was still unrestored. John Haller, the previous owner had the car since 1963 with just 12,000 miles.
My point is that my car has door handles that point to the rear, even in pictures that John had of the car - going back to the early 60's showed the car with rear pointing door handles, you questioned me on the fact. My point being that in the last darrin Newsletter, finally a service bulletin showing that rear pointing door handles are valid, surfaced.
Prior to that bulletin surfacing rear pointing door handles would have been judged "incorrectly" that the car was wrong.
My car has always had the stainless steel gas cap - did the original owner loose the painted one? Or was the plant out of yellow caps and did they need to finish the car and get it out the door to get the car shipped. Believe me - the factory would not hesitate to put a stainless steel cap on the car so it could be loaded on a truck and sent to the door. So int that case what would be correct how the car was built, or the "standard"
Another possibility is the case of dealer installed options?
There are also the questions about running production changes. Etc,
Mitch
P.S. I may not be able to document that my car had a black airsoop, but I think it looks much better with a black scoop vs a yellow one.
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These variations in our cars are one of the things that makes judging so difficult and there are plenty of them. Keep that documentation handy! I have diferences in some of my original cars but I will take a deduction rather than add something that was not original to my car until I can find documentation.
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I spoke to Mike Knittel at the Midwest Division meet about the judging situation. If I understood the situation correctly, others will draw up the standards...my only involvement would be to "vet" their information for accuracy and add things that may be missing. OK, if I ever get anything to review I will review it. Otherwise, I have no idea what is going into this and will not endorse anything that I have not seen, researched or otherwise verified.
As for various existing issues, I have a comment and questions. Using the column in the just-mailed issue of HEMMINGS CLASSIC CAR (with the Ford body drop station on the cover & the 1959 Edesl station wagon as one of the featured cars), I have to ask how one knows for certain if what they have is a truly unrestored, "unfixed" original vehicle? Have ALL the prior owners signed off on statements attesting to same or is someone going on verbal hearesay? The illustration in the Darrin parts book seems to me to show the handle pointing forward (page 62). Various factory Press Release photos show the door pointing forward as does the ads and showroom literature. The drawing that goes with a Willys Motors service memo from June 1954 shows the handle pointing forward. What FACTORY DOCUMENT or FACTORY ISSUED DRAWING shows it pointing backwards? Any takers?
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In other words the Club's version of judging guidelines is never going to happen. Who has the research material and the knowledge and the time to do it and why? Judging guidelines are already done. I propose that we finish what we have and make it available to members who want them. It will slowly be fine tuned and will be the best thing that the members will ever have for their cars. We need them now and not in twenty years. What can we do to get this thing finished? If the judging committee wants to come up with their own down the line that's ok but we all know that it will never happen.
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The material involved will be called "Restoration Guidelines" rather than "Judging Standards". Mike made a point that club members are not going to be required to follow any or all of the information (like the old disclaimer about new car dealers in TX following factory policies like MSRP). This is what I figured from the start.
As long as the information is captured in a way that both people and judges can use it to evaluate an automobile, it will help.
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Does the Club currently have any Restoration Guidelines other than the judging forms? They certainly don't have pages and pages of guidelines for each year and model of our cars. We really do not need anything from the judging committee for us to finish what has been started. By not requiring cars to follow the recommended guidelines just means that they do not have any documentation! What can we do to get this job going??
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Ok, here's a thought...
Instead of having judging at meets, set up "stations" where owners could run their cars past a group of people who would examine the car against a set of standards and then make recommendations as to how to bring the car up to factory spec. Yes, it still requires a set of standards for each model and year, but would eliminate the competetive piece that judging brings with it. You'd now have folks looking to improve their cars against how they first left the factory. You would also eliminate the need to have judges who are "all knowing", because their job would now be relegated to matching the current condition of a component to that of a standard that could include photos where applicable.
Just a thought that's sure to stir more conversation!
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I LOVE the last two posts IMMENSELY!!! :)
This is exactly what is needed until such time as the powers that be can get over themselves, and actually make a decision.
I attended the annual meet when it was held in Vermont several years ago, and frankly, I was deeply appalled at the actions of the PTB about proposed changes to the framework of the Club.
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Ok, here's a thought...
Instead of having judging at meets, set up "stations" where owners could run their cars past a group of people who would examine the car against a set of standards and then make recommendations as to how to bring the car up to factory spec. Yes, it still requires a set of standards for each model and year, but would eliminate the competetive piece that judging brings with it. You'd now have folks looking to improve their cars against how they first left the factory. You would also eliminate the need to have judges who are "all knowing", because their job would now be relegated to matching the current condition of a component to that of a standard that could include photos where applicable.
Just a thought that's sure to stir more conversation!
That is a good idea but I doubt if the Club would eliminate judging as too many members live for trophies and they really are important for valuing quality and correctly restored cars. We really do want the trophies to be meaningful and to go to deserving cars which would raise the standard of the judging. I think that when the guidelines are available everyone will want a set for his car and it would be a good opportunity for the owners to discuss issues with the owners of similar cars.
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Hi Jim, thanks for taking on the banner and running with it. That is just what we need to keep this project moving. Jack has done a wonderful job of getting all of this research 90% along and we as members need to finish it up or it will never be done. We can all see that the Club and judging committee have no interest in a project of this size. I will contribute what I can on the cars that I am most knowledgeable on and I hope that you guys will too. When these guidelines are finished they will be the bible for K-F restoration and if a judge is confronted with an item he is not familiar with he had better take a good look at the guidelines! Hey! We are the Club! Let's do it!!!
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As I noted in the topic about Restoration Guidelines (and that is the correct term for the material, not Judging Standards) I never saw this until the posting. NOBODY came to me asking for a review. Until this matter is resolved, people should be advised that I do NOT endorse, support, or otherwise have any involvement in this material. I did look at the HJ and found several errors and omissions along with a very questionable area of content.
I will of course, help anyone who feels thay got a bad call in judging and if it turns out an error is made, suggest that the car owner seek whatever satisfaction they feel the situation requires.
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Jim posted those guidelines asking for people to review them. That was the idea.