Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gordie on September 20, 2010, 07:06:47 PM
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There are so many street rods on the roads today that many people think that anything that is not modified is original. That seems perfectly logical in their way of thinking and maybe makes some sense but to we old timers an original car is one that has its original paint and upholstery. The Early Ford V-8 Club, the AAA and other clubs have a class for original cars and I wish that we did too. The V-8 Club allows only two body panels to have been repainted or touched up such as a door or fender and you have to put a limit on repaired panels or you encroach on having a total repaint. It is ok that the paint is thin or the upholstery worn in spots as long as it is original. Those low mileage cars make the best examples that we can find for bringing our restoration to as close to original as possible. You can restore your car to look original but it was only original when it left the dealership. If it was well maintained but with no restoration work done it is still an original car. I have owned over 10,000 cars over the years and was lucky to have had a few original collector cars. They are still my favorites but getting scarcer and scarcer as the years go by.
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Check out the just mailed issue of HEMMINGS CLASSIC CAR. There is a column in there about original vehicles and it is true, you can restore a car to like original condition but that does not mean it is original.
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Jack, your previous comment about the article prompted me to write this blog. I really think that the proliferation of street rods really adds to the confusion of what an original car is.
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Restorations by definition cannot be "original." That's why I go for "authenticity" since originality is not always possible. One thing that likely won't happen is the old paints, the laquers etc. being available again. I was at Lance Johnson's place over the weekend and he showed me his Carabella which still wears the original paint and looks amazing. You can definitely tell the difference in the finish of the original paints compared to today's paint. I notice it on my '53 J too - the outside has been repainted but he dash and door interiors still wear the original paint and it definitely has a different texture and sheen to it.
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My 1949 is all original except the tires and the starter. I am hoping to bring it to my home in the near future and will send a bunch of photo's of the car. Still having issues getting the doors open. They are gummed up and stuck shut. Any suggestions, I cannot open them from the inside or the outside since pulling it out of the garage. It has 13K orig miles and was last drive in 1955. The paint is worn and the interior drivers seat is starting to get some cracks but it is a great looker. The floor mat is a green colored rubber and the pedals are green also, are replacements of these avail from the mfg fund in the green? I would like to put a new one over the old to keep it from getting torn up from use.
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Kenn:
The word "except" referring to the tires and starter in my opinion says your car is NOT original!!
Just my opinion, sure to bring up a further discussion!!
Its only original once.
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I'll pick a nit. In the case of Kenn's car, if the starter had been exchanged by the dealer, for example, by another starter identical in every way to that which was put in the car by the factory when new, or if it had preserved old tires from a dealer ditto, then I'd consider it original. Now, something from say a Jeep that works and fits like the original starter but has a different part#, now that is not original. Ditto with replacement tires of different manufacture...although I'd consider tires made from the same molds and of period composition to be "original". Original as in interior and paint, no matter how ratty right now, is HPOF and I know of two cars--a 39 Studebaker Commander and a 1930? Model A locally, which have been lovingly kept as true HPOF cars by their first (!) and first/second owners. Never repainted (although the paint has been buffed out very gently in recent years on the Studebaker), dents and bits of rust never fixed (although stopped from progressing), and absolutely nothing modernized or upgraded. In the model A case, there was a store of replacement items purchased at the time by the purchaser and preserved for future use, so it is still on 'original' light bulbs etc. A local ModelA/Model T restorer has always ached to get his hands on it and fix its current deficiencies...but understands that it won't happen. Just my way of looking at it
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I'm a purist, and only like my cars as they came off the assembly line. If I add anything to them, I add correct factory or dealer accesories, such as a radio in a car than never had one for example. Must be correct for that year and model. I do love to see the all original cars, that is so nice to see history. My 53 Manhattan only has 48,000 original miles. The dash, headliner, door panels look like new, and are original. Unfortunatly the driver seat had a rip, and both front and rear were redone. Since they weren't done in correct material, and now it is available, I may redo it to get the factory look, but, it won't be original, but it will be done authintically. I don't consider a car with new tires, not to be an original since tires being 50 years old, would be unsave to drive due to dry rot, ect.. Having said that, I do put original style tires on my cars. I recently bought new coker tires, www for the Kaiser. Since with the exception of the tires may be not quiet the factory type, and my Kaiser was repainted once, 30 years ago,( original colour ) it's not 100% original. The repaint is faded now, and has scrathes, whcih does give it a patina origina look, but I won't lie and say it is. It would be nice to read articles and see photos of members that do have an ALL original ( less perhaps tires, tune-up ect.) cars in the quarterly. Great post by the way, happy cruizing everyone. ( p.s. sorry for the typos, my computer can't spell good since I type with 2 fingers, hahaha)
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One of the biggest non-original original things people do these days with tires is buy the right size (like, say 6.70 x 15) and, where applicable, the correct whitewall width, on their COOPER, DENNMAN, or other recent branded tires. Goodyear was the main supplier to Kaiser-Frazer, with Firestone, B.F. Goodrich or U.S. Royal (not Uniroyal, but the older brand) as secondary sources from time to time (specifics on brand/model year not available so I would figure it's open).
I think the best approach is to try to make your vehicle--regardless of make or year--as close to production line condition as possible based on your resources and what is available in the marketplace.
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There does come a point however were being original necessarily is not a plus - and it becomes the owners choice to restore/repaint etc. When I purchased my Darrin it had 20,000 miles - unfortunately during the spring melt off one year there was approx 1" of water on the floor in the garage. with all that moisture the body became a sponge and each time the car was out in the sun new blisters and cracks would appear!.
I did a complete restoration of the body, however I left the interior and drive train alone. I kept the original 5.90X15 Goodyear WW's however they are extremely weather checked. Would I have liked to keep the car in original paint, of course - but the car was starting to look real bad.
Correct me if I'm wrong but with the exception of the Darrin, and the 53 Dragons the cars were painted with enamel, the Darrins and Dragons were Lacquer. Of course there were no base - clear paints and the paint was originally quite thin - hence not a lot of depth
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I'll pick another nit; this is an interesting topic information-wise and also philosophically. That which I said before I stand by, BUT....for my own personal driving in old cars, I will make a few exceptions. First, except for my 49 Kaiser, all my cars run on radials, usually something that is similar by not identical to what is historical in size and look, and if possible, at a reasonable price. For that reason, I will NEVER EVER use Coker bias ply repro tires or the like because they are hugely expensive, and have durability and staining characteristics of used coffee filters. (Coker does not stand behind their tires either, and it appears from Studebaker sources that they have tried to argue that they are 'show' tires not intended to be used as *gasp* actual tires during driving on a road) Besides, radials are safer IMO--I adopted them about 1972 at 19 before most North American car owners had become aware of them. The Kaiser will get updated to radials, but right now I am pondering replacement rims to safely use radial tires on my Kaiser
I also install seatbelts when possible, as I became a seatbelt user as a young teenage passenger, and 1965 was a landmark year for me when North America wised up. So far, they have saved my life several times...and trust them much more than any airbag, especially since I then drive like I am NOT invincible.
So, my cars will never win authenticity prizes because the wheels and tires and seatbelts are all wrong for the cars I like to drive. But, I won't compromise on those issues.
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The "hand-crafted" cars of Kaiser-Frazer (including the Darrin) were Lacquer painted as were cars assembled at the Portland and Long Beach plants (as well as overseas operations). In the case of the darrin, the high temperatures used at the factory to bake the enamel finish would warp the body; otherwise, the baked enamel process was not workable on the cars for one reason or another. You can tell this by the paint code number on the cars.
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I use bias-ply and really don't mind the road wander that goes along with them. I don't use seatbelts, but am not really opposed to them. In fact, I have been thinking about installing some in my Dragon so I can feel more comfortable about taking my children in the car. How does one go about installing seatbelts? Do you have to drill holes in the floorboard for bolts? I wouldn't be too crazy about doing that.
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I also install seatbelts when possible, as I became a seatbelt user as a young teenage passenger, and 1965 was a landmark year for me when North America wised up. So far, they have saved my life several times...and trust them much more than any airbag, especially since I then drive like I am NOT invincible.
Seat belts were optional on the Darrin, Mine is so equipped - If the car is ever in a collision where seatbelts would help one would be impaled by the steering wheel and have a face full of windshield - without the shoulder belt the seatbelt in the Darrin at least would be marginally helpful.
ML
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Tires: NEW tires, whether radial or bias-ply follow the road well.
Seat belts: The official line in Texas is that if your car had seat belt mounts, your are required to install and use belts. That means you are supposed to wear belts in a 62 Studebaker. But the problem is the mounts are no more than holes in the floor pan with washers. I don't see much value in seat belts that aren't anchored to something substantial.
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And to be honest - I do where seat belts 100% of the time - since 1983.
Car Admittedly - I do trailer a number of my "early cars" as the towing vehicle is "safer" with better tires, brakes and belts and airbags.
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Jim B PEI: You are 1 year off. Seat belts weren't strictly required until 1968, but the GSA* said for the 1966 model year that they would not buy cars unless they had seat belts, outside mirrors, back up lights, and a few other items. US automakers decided if these items were required to sell to the Federal government, they would make them standard. Seat belts had been offered as accessories on various US models since the Darrin and Federal vehicles had been bought with seat belts or had them installed after the purchase since 1962 or 63.
*GSA - Government Services Administration - a unit of the US government that handled purchases, leasing, and temporary assets for other federal agencies.
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Cars sold in the US were not required to have seat head rests or shoulder belts unless they were manufactured after Jan 1, 1969. A number of 1969 cars that were early production did not have these items, especially the shoulder belts that were turning out to be unwieldy when unbuckled. But here is something amusing: The Federal government decided in 1968 that they couldn't wait for normal turn over of vehicles and decreed that the regular vehicles in the fleet (obviously they couldn't include the roll-over prone M151 Jeep type vehicles) should be retrofitted with shoulder harness. So for several years you might see a 1966 Plymouth 4 door with a big carriage bolt struck through the door pillar as an anchor for the added shoulder belt.
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The "hand-crafted" cars of Kaiser-Frazer (including the Darrin) were Lacquer painted as were cars assembled at the Portland and Long Beach plants (as well as overseas operations). In the case of the darrin, the high temperatures used at the factory to bake the enamel finish would warp the body; otherwise, the baked enamel process was not workable on the cars for one reason or another. You can tell this by the paint code number on the cars.
I knew the Darrins, and Dragons, The Other Models and plants that you mentioned make sense too! Thanks for the responce.
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And when I was a kid in the 70's-80's I remember we had a Dodge Polara that had shoulder belts the you had to hook up on that bolt on the door pillar.
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Since we're talking seat belts...how about the ORIGINAL 1974 model year system with the interlock that prevented the car from starting unless the front belts were buckled; not that you were using them, only that they were buckled!
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The old trick was to tie a knot in the belt so it thought it was buckled. I used to do that first thing whenever I got a car. I don't do that any more! Were it not for a seatbelt, my wife would be dead now. I wear mine and I put them in my cars too. Can't enjoy the old cars if'n you're dead!
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Since we're talking seat belts...how about the ORIGINAL 1974 model year system with the interlock that prevented the car from starting unless the front belts were buckled; not that you were using them, only that they were buckled!
My brother had a 74 Comet - the belts had to be rebuckeled everytime you started the car - the was an override button under the hood - it allowed you to start the car but the buzzer kept going.