Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: pnw_oldmags on September 20, 2010, 08:37:32 PM
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JUST POSTED - the INITIAL DRAFTS of the "RESTORATION GUIDELINES"
for Class 08 - 47&48 Frazers
http://circlekf.com/kfcars/class08.html (http://circlekf.com/kfcars/class08.html)
and
Class 4 - Henry J & Allstate.
http://circlekf.com/kfcars/class04.html (http://circlekf.com/kfcars/class04.html)
Take a look and start sending me updates.
Do read the Foreward on how to send updates.
Any help and most comments will be appreciated!
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To Jim Betts and any others involved in this project....
Apparently Mike Knittel was mistaken when he told me at the 2010 Midwest Division Meet that I was involved in this project. The first time I saw this was when everyone else did, that is as a link to this Forum topic. I also received no email from anyone asking me to check the material out for the purpose of "vetting" informantion. I take the developments to mean that nobody wants my input as I figured I would see an advance before showing to the general public.
Be advised there are various errors and missing information in the material for the Henry J, especially as regards to Continental tire kits.
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
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Where is the Darrin information??
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Let's everyone chip in and correct the errors and add the information that is missing.
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I did not find a forward with contact info but I did find the "contact me" link which I used to send you a long email with possible additions for the '47-'48 Frazer's. Did you receive it? Let's stop contacting the Club as they offer no help. Publish all of Jack's guidelines and let's start working on them.
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During the last winter when I tried to get the idea of written judging standards going, Jim Betts was one of the most enthusiastic of the people getting back to me. I suggested to Mike Knittel that Jim's basic format, rather than what I did be used as the "standard platform" for the material because I liked it better than my own.
My personal opinion on all this is that it would be much better to be able to go through and make corrections, fill in blanks, etc before things get posted for the "public" at places like this forum. Jim ignored the resources I could offer, and that is his right to choose. However, I cannot help but feel that throwing out to anyone and everyone at this stage will cause the whole thing to get bogged down and killed.
A MAJOR concern I have (as do others, I have found) is the idea of the paint chips. They will not reproduce to proper color on a number of computer printers and the numbers listed have long disappeared from paint jobber information. It would be better if car owners got their own original charts from ebay or at a swap meet, especially the Ditzler as PPG can mix older colors to current if you have their old info as a starting point.
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In another thread on this site that's related to judging, I alluded to moving to a format where the "judge" would simply be referring to a set of standards that would include photos. The guidelines posted here are EXACTLY what I had in mind.
I agree with Jack...the work to develop the format and layout should be limited to a small group so that the project's focus can be maintained. Those who wish to be involved could be held on a list and those folks would be contacted when task specific help is needed.
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Gordie - I have not seen an email from you. The email to send input to would be jimbetts@q.com
Pretty simple. If you can make your comments with the Class and the little reference number with each comment it should allow me to insert your input correctly. THANKS for the ASSISTANCE. We can only do this together as I am really more of a paper collector than a mechanic.
As these restoration guidelines are to assist us all in restoration - thinks like your shocks should be of this diameter and length would be much more meaningful than be sure the shocks are painted BLACK.
If your distributor is a Delco then the Actual brand and numbers for points, condensor, cap would be helpful.
THANKS AGAIN.
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JoeFrazer - I am glad the guidelines are what you had in mind - that is great. If a firestorm of input occurs and it gets out of control we can pull them back into a Facebook Group and limit access until they are approved(?by whom?). But that sounds like a way that might stop progress on this. Maybe the tight group of experts can periodically review the progress and make recommendations for clean up.
I am not really worried about too much input. Normally people like to read what has been done by others and take pot shots. Pot shots are going to be ignored. Let's all jump in and help by making recommendations for improvement. This information has been out there for 50 years and never shared ... time has come to collect it and share it. It must be made available to instill interest in our K-F cars and new younger owners. OK I will step off the soap box!
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Might I make a suggestion or two to specific points?
1) About paint chips and the like. I know from having original paint chip charts on many years/cars, including all sorts of duplicates, that colour reproduction on a computer is not to be believed as gospel, but neither is a paint chip due to aging/fading...and a computer screen might be closer if based on a good quality chip sheet than a paint chip on the average chip sheet for a Kaiser/Frazer by this time. However, they give a fair idea of what is involved. Instead of taking pictures of actual paint chips, why not show the colour by a link to something like this:
http://www.tcpglobal.com/autocolorlibrary/aclchip.aspx?image=1947-kaiser-pg01.jpg
with a disclaimer that these colours are just an approximation due to computer screen limitations and to consult primary sources for exact matches
This source, I might add, in not foolproof on what they have on-line, as it is missing 1948 completely, all the 1949 colour chips (I have the Ditzler sheets myself) but it does have the confidential memos.
2) You could go the Wikipedia route of sorts--having the information available on line but locked from informal editing, and highlighting, perhaps with different colours, areas that are incomplete, suspect, or need citations/need dates/need productions figures/source materials or photos.
Between Jack and Jim, and several other people's contributions, still with us or departed, and the odd fact or document here and there from the larger membership, we can whip this into shape.
Jim Bartley
Malpeque PEI
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Great Paint ideas all - In the guidelines lets put the concerns about the chips being less than right and provide a link to the online ones Jim B has provided, and a carefully worded non endorsing recommendation to see the PPG Jobber
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I really like the tentative template layout for the Restoration Guidelines as Jim made up. As an example, although mine isn't there in particular, you could get a feel for the Glass Green of my 49, in relation to how the door panels were set up, colours and trim, along with confirmation of the interior paint used with Glass Green (some sort of brown, Oakwood??) and the fabrics used on the seats (Corundel Cord?, and what shade??) besides all the other information.
I'm off on another rescue project next week...another Studebaker, and this time an unloved and later rarity. It has just come up in the Studebaker Forum under "Challenger or Commander?"
http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?17604-Challenger-or-Commander
Wish I could find --oh, 53 Utility Kaisers, this easily.
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I can answer a number of Jim's questions, but he apparently preferrs to go elsewhere for the information. I say it that way because I THOUGHT there were certain agreements in place that apparently are not, regarding verifying information, adding information, etc. He has the right to do it any way he wants...wether it will be accurate or based on heresay is another matter.
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Jack, Your input is very welcome into the Restoration Guidelines. Accuracy does matter but the days for behind closed door agreements are over. Let's develop a usable product out in the open with everyone chipping in. You do have a lot of great information but so do others, lets take advantage of that.
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I am happy that the forum exists because it lets people know what's going on and does it out in the open.
For those interested, the agreement was that a rough draft would be worked up, I would have the chance to go through it, make revisions, ask questions, etc. When that was done, THEN it would go out for additional input from members who could back up what they said with FACTORY DOCUMENTS rather than hearsay (things like "that's what the guy I bought it from told me"). This has not happened here. It is my understanding from Charlotte Dayton, Chief Judge of the KFOCI (comment came before the 2010 National) that what Jim was working on was a 2-page "cheat sheet" summary for judges to use, based on more comprehensive information.
I feel I've been completly left out of the loop on this whole thing, so I will stay out until things get resolved.
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
KFOCI
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Jack, This was your idea from start to finish and it was all of your research that made it possible. You will never be left out of this loop and we are all happy to be able to make a contribution but we all know that this is your baby! Jim is doing a great job in formatting it and with everyone's contribution to the different models as they are presented it should be just what you hoped for and more than what we ever thought possible. Don't look for a lot of enthusiasm from the Club but we have plenty from the members who are going to really be able to benefit from this project. The Club will come around and will probably want to take credit for the whole thing!!
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Jack, we all enjoy your information and research and it is important to the club. Lets all be able to add information to the guide lines. That makes it everybodys club and may help get younger people involved. While at a car show this week end a retired body man came up and said I have a box Kaiser literature you might be interested in. It is from the 60's and 70's and has write ups of proto type or experimental and concept cars. Some of it was from the Quarterly club publication and a binder with factory sheets from the 50's. He wants 100.00 which I didn't have with me and was hesitant at the price. Is there interest in a Club library if a location/care taker could be worked out? The over all tone of these discussions seem to be positive and in the best interest of the club so lets all keep pulling to gather and get more information out and get more people involved. The club activities and car shows with Kaiser-Frazer & Willy's people that I have attnted have been very informative and enjoyable. Also very reassuring when a car breaks down everone is there to help solve the problem.
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Hi, all...
First, I don't care who gets credit for what. We have a limited window here and we have to get this right the first time (or be very close to right the first time) if it is to be done at all and anyone's help is appreciated.
Because of specific requirements now in place (that were NOT in place years ago when this could have been done), we cannot meet the current tests to become a 501c3 (we do qualify as a c6). Only the c3 category non-profits can give tax deductions for donations of material. We have lost out on several opportunities because we are not a c3 class organization. Not having a "fixed base" to work out of is a problem...the Ypsilanti Automotive Heritage Museum does not have the space to set up a library area for us (they already turned down the Corvair Club's offer to re-locate their materials to the facility).
I would love to see something get established, but again, where, and who would handle it?
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Could we start in a barn or house and set up a room and adjoining bath room. Add shelves book cases and a desk. Maybe a couch or a couple of chairs? Work parties could be scheduled along with a club meet once or twice a year. Rooms or sections for the first cars, then the redesign, the engineering projects and one off units/proto types, Darrin's, Merger & Willy's and maybe an area for safety up dates and modified/customs. Just thinking out loud (in type), please chime in.
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Sounds simple enough ... start small and build into something magnificant ;D
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This is the Color Disclaimer being considered for the Restoration Guideline Documents.
E7.040
COLOR DISCLAIMER
Use the paint chip scans included in this document only as an idea of the original color. Due to variances among color monitors/printers the colors that appear on your screen/paper may not be correct. Although the color scans in this document were scanned with a high quality scanner not all computer monitors / printers are the same and do not necessarily display/print colors the same way. Many of the numbers listed within have long since disappeared from paint jobber information. If you are repainting your vehicle it would be recommended that original charts be obtained, preferably Ditzler as PPG shops can mix older colors to current if you have their old info as a starting point.
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That sounds reasonable Jim
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Jim B (PNW not PEI): You are trying to make the disclaimer a separate article in itself. All you really need is the 1st sentence.
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Good point -
E7.040
COLOR DISCLAIMER
Use the paint chip scans included in this document only as an idea of the original color.
E7.042
IF YOU NEED PAINT
It would be recommended that original Paint Chips be obtained, preferably Ditzler as PPG shops can mix older colors to current if you have their old info as a starting point.
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KF Technical Reference Manual Lists - As we are working on Restoration Guidelines having a good set of manuals available would be invaluable. I have tried to assemble the list of manuals required/desired by Class. Your comments / additions / deletions will be appreciated. The intent is to add these lists to the Restoration Guideline documents for each class.
Class 04 - Henry J & Allstate
http://circlekf.com/kflit/pdf/KFLIT%20Book%20Lit%20By%20Class%2004.pdf (http://circlekf.com/kflit/pdf/KFLIT%20Book%20Lit%20By%20Class%2004.pdf)
Class 08 - 1947 - 1948 Frazer
http://circlekf.com/kflit/pdf/KFLIT%20Book%20Lit%20By%20Class%2008.pdf (http://circlekf.com/kflit/pdf/KFLIT%20Book%20Lit%20By%20Class%2008.pdf)
Class 14 - 1952(B) - 1953 Kaiser
http://circlekf.com/kflit/pdf/KFLIT%20Book%20Lit%20By%20Class%2014.pdf (http://circlekf.com/kflit/pdf/KFLIT%20Book%20Lit%20By%20Class%2014.pdf)
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Jim,
The reference materiel is helpful, will there be a list for 1954/55 Kaisers or will they be added to the class 14 listing? Just for fun I would like to see what the "current" judging guide looks like for the 1954 cars. I'm willing to assist but feel inadequate without having a library source for vetting the data.
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John, When finished there should be a booklet for each class. I will start the draft for Class 15 - 1954 & 1955 Kaiser. At the PNW Fall Meet I will give you a copy so you can help update. Do you have a Digital Camera?? Your car should be a fantastic source for 1954 pictures. Jim
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jsgmpeek - You've hit on the issue we've been debating/talking about for years and this is, there are no "guidelines." That's what we'd all like to see so when we have a car judged we know what it is being based on. Currently there is no such thing.
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Couple things...
1. The current IRS guidelines require a separate fixed abode rather than a room or shelf in someone's house. Too many people tried this in the past so they tightened up the requirements to become a 501c3 corp. Brooks Stevens' accountant was a friend of my mothers and even in the early 1960's when the (no longer existant) Brooks Stevens Museum was trying to get its 501c3 there was an issue because it was in a portion of the building also used for the design studio. Some at the IRS considered it Mr. Stevens' garage. It literally took intervention by a member of the Wisconsin Congressional delegation to resolve the matter.
2. The club could have had written standards in place prior to 2000, but Chief Judge Fred Walker refused to hear of such a thing! All you had to do was to order all your parts from him (or better yet, have his restoration ship do your car) and you would always have the right thing for your car.
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Jim, and others,
Thanks for the atta-boy on my restoration ref: http://picasaweb.google.com/54kaiser/Kaiser# however, I know that the judging police would have a hey day with my car. For instance here are some of the non factory modifications I did when I did the restoration. Rerouted the gas line to avoid heat and vapor lock, powder-coated frame, added a fuel filter on the frame, replaced sway-bar with a larger stiffer one, added hardened valves in engine, replaced head bolts with higher grade bolts, use synthetic oil (engine & transmission), added electronic ignition, changed over from 6 volt to 12 volt, switched positive ground to negative, upgraded the supercharger, added a spin off oil filter, replaced generator with alternator, 12 volt starter, added an optima battery in a 6 Volt case, installed stainless exhaust and flow-through muffler, replaced vacuum tube radio with transistorized AM/FM radio behind original face, added an electric antenna, added 12 volt pump to windshield washer, installed halogen head lamps, added sound deadening in doors, roof, floors, and hood, replaced many factory screws, bolts with new hardware some stainless, replaced cloth wiring with vinyl, laid carpet in front and trunk, installed radial tires, added seat belts, added fender mirrors, and the list goes on. My point is 1. we have no guidelines and 2. it's my car and I will do what I want to make it safer, and more reliable.
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2) it's my car and I will do what I want
That is really what it is all about. You could have a known classic car (known meaning that a celebrity owned it) in which case altering it would be a bad thing to the value of the car. But KF made around 810,000 (out of about 830,000) cars that were regular, mundane 4 dr cars.
Actually there are some guidelines for judging and since you didn't make a major body modification like chopping the top or cutting the car into a pickup and you didn't change the engine to a non-KF engine, your car would be judged in the appropriate stock class.
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I agree completly with WE HAVE NO GUIDELINES. The current program is flawed and my efforts to see things resolved (especially considering the legal implications of people putting guesses down on paper as actual restoration detail, as is the case with the new stuff) have been ignored. That is why I want nothing to do with the current effort until the various issues I discussed with Mike Knittel earlier in the year get resolved by the management of the club.
As far as rerouting the fuel line, etc, goes, owing the the changing formulations of gas and the trade-offs incurred we need to take this into account or nobody will ever drive a K-F product again. Of course, nobody doing the "restoration guidellines" thought about such things!
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After all Kaiser realized the problem and rerouted the lines in 52 and again in 53 to keep the gas cool.
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The rerouting of the fuel lines was to help reduce the possibility of vapor lock, but that got shattered when the EPA began bolixing up gas formulas to the point where even new cars vapor lock (a 40 degree temp variation in the engine compartment of a Saturn SUV can cause evaporation of fuel in the fuel rail; I was part of the group that worked on the problem).