Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: pnw_oldmags on July 26, 2011, 03:14:54 PM
-
Reading through Kaiser Bill's Website I see he recommends using Synthetic Oil in Kaiser-Frazer engines.
http://www.kaiserbill.com/Web-PDF/Oil.pdf (http://www.kaiserbill.com/Web-PDF/Oil.pdf)
Does anyone out there have good or bad stories to tell about actually doing this??
Thanks in advance for your opinions.
-
Don't have stories, but it couldn't hurt, could it? Good to add a little zinc too, like some break-in oil, right?
-
re zinc...
Some experts say that the additives do not actually work since they do not correctly mix into the oil base.
-
At the Midwest meet last year, we had a lubrication guru from Ford talk a bit about what oils are best for older engines like those in a KF. Zinc is a big plus for older engines and the best oil in his opinion is Quaker State. Theirs still has a high concentration in it...so that's what I use. I can't see spending the extra money on a synthetic oil for use in an older engine. Keep the oil topped off and clean and the 'ole standard should work just fine!
-
Synthetic oils are fine for the metalurgy of newer car and truck engines as well as their operating conditions; it can cause problems in older car engines.
-
Keep the oil topped off and clean and the 'ole standard should work just fine!
I agree with this statement and Jack's. There is no need for synthetic oil in our old cars. They are hobby cars, not daily drivers, so an "oil change" can last as much as 2-5 years in theory.
In your lifetime are you going to drive any particular KF 100,000 miles? Probably not 20,000 miles, so using synthetic is overkill. Modern organic oils are about 3000 % better then oil was in 1950 anyway. I vote Quaker State.
-
I would do as I do with my Studebakers:
EITHER..... use an oil such as Valvoline VR1 racing oil (I think?? it is synthetic, but irrelevant whether it is or isn't) which has the required amount of zinc and phosphorus as a "sacrificial coating" for at risk engine parts which should be about 50-50 ratio, and the concentration around 1400 ppm, as oils USED to have, and which is still needed for break-in off all new/re-done camshafts etc in particular, and all racing engines which have special needs (although Z & P are death to cat converters, so that is why it has disappeared from regular oil, especially since modern meturallurgy engines don't need it as such, as they don't have flat tappets etc),...
OR.... use a good quality regular oil--and a single grade such a 30 is a good thing for midsummer use--and add the product ZDDP which is formulated to add the right concentration of Zinc and Phosporus to make up the lack.
The cost is about the same. If you do it yourself, the cost for product is similar to getting an oil change done at an oil change place. You either pay +/- $5-6 a quart/litre plus taxes for something like VR1, or less for regular oil but about $8-10 per ZDDP container, so $30-$40 per change, taxes (and shipping if required) in. Cheap insurance for old flat tappet engines. Too little is bad, too much is just as bad for your engine, so DON'T double up.
-
I agree that synthetic probably is not necessary (and I don't use it) but what problems can it cause? That seems counterintuitive. Also, why would you use straight weight rather than multi viscosity? It seems that the advantages of having an oil that acts more viscous when hot, less when cold, are clear.
-
Straight vs. multi-viscosity is in part up to the user based on driving conditions. I have found that using multi in hot weather lowers the oil pressure a bit.
-
I only drive my cars in the warmer months (April - Oct). I was told to use only straight weight (don't remember why) and that's all I've used in my KF products since 1978. Never had engine trouble of any kind. The engine in my '53 J was rebuilt in 1971 and has abour 35,000 miles on it since the rebuilt - no problems and it does not smoke or use oil. It has never been driven in the winter.
-
I have an article from Kia Motors Magazine saying that they do not recommend synthetic oils for their cars saying they do not justify the extra expense. Since they cover their engines for 100k miles on conventional oil, I tend to believe what they said. I had 156k on my Jeep Grand Cherokee 6 cyl. when I
traded it in and it did not burn oil or knock. If you drive ONLY in the Summer, I recommend 30w. I had boats for many years with truck engines in them and the owners manual said to use only 30w not multiweight oils. Of course boat engines are stressed more that car engines, but I noticed 30w holds oil pressure better when the motor is hot.
-
I suppose straight weight makes sense if you only drive during the summer and it holds pressure better. I drive mine year round in Texas and we don't have much of a winter here, but it will usually freeze a couple of times. Maybe I should try 30w for summer. Do you think it would hold pressure better than 20w50? That's what I currently use.
-
Using 30 weight straight oil will give a bit more push than 20w50 in hot weather.
-
About multi versus straight weight: In older times, and cars, there wasn't an oil filter. You were expected to change the oil regularly and often. You might change it every month or two months, and three months was a stretch. Therefore, it was a seasonal oil you were choosing, and 30 weight was just about perfect for hot weather months, keeping the oil pressure high, even at idle. With the advent of filters, people started stretching the period of change over a season, and with 10W-30, or 5W-30, boy could you ever extend it.
One funny memory. I had a 1973 Mazda Rotary RX3, before the advent of unleaded gas here, and it required 20W-50 which I could only find in Castrol GTX. Leaded gas left 'grey paint' coming out the spark plug holes (and ultimately, the failure of apex seals?). Oil had to be changed early and often with leaded gas in a Wankel engine; and this flaw with lead was readily apparent in them, not piston engines. The Wankel engines lasted a bit longer with unleaded gas...
-
I think all we are saying about synthetic v organic oils is cost based. There is probably not a problem using synthetic oil in an old car (KF) but 5 quarts of synthetic oil costs about $35 while organic oils about $11 and in your lifetime of driving there will be no noticeable difference in internal wear especially given the quality of modern 10W30, so I have better uses for my $24 difference in pricing (approximate) but you can certainly run synthetic if you choose.
-
I've never used synthetic myself, but I have been told by others that when they switched to a
synthetic oil on a vintage car, that had oil leaks. It seems that synthetics would leak where conventional oil did not. Maybe this is due to gasket material used years ago, but why create
another problem?
-
I respectfully disagree; there is more than price involved. If you have an old car that has been using dino crude oil, a change to synthetics with an un-refreshed engine tends, so common responses say, to there being more leaks/heavier leaks. Why, I am unsure. Common refrain from people, though. If there is a leak, synthetic will find it.
HOWEVER, if you are using a flat tappet engine, it is absolutely essential after a rebuild during an extended break-in period, and very recommended at any other times, to either use an oil, which is certain racing spec oils like Valvoline VR-1 with the right proportion (50-50) of zinc and phosporus in the correct concentration (approx 1400 ppm) OR to use a supplement such as ZDDP with regular oil. The flat tappet engines need a sacrificial layer to avoid excess wear, and that is what the zinc & phosporus provide. (Also, it is similar to people and bones, in that when people take calcium, you need to take magnesium at the same time in order for the calcium to do you any good, and to be absorbed.)
Similarly, with my turbo diesel Volkswagens, they need an extremely specific formulation of synthetic oil for the 'family' of engine, whether VE, PD, or CR, which costs me $10 a litre plus tax, and it is one item that you simply cannot skimp on without coking your turbo. Even a formulation that is correct for a 2003 is dead wrong for a 2006 and wrong again for a 2011. Gas turbos require different formulations too.
I don't skimps on my turbo diesels, and I don't skimp on my Studebaker and Kaiser engines for those reasons. Everything else with modern metallurgy and design and without a turbo gets whatever is cheapest this week
-
Thanks for every ones comments, opinions and facts. The twelve quarts of Synthetic Oil I bought several months ago are going to be used in my john deere tractor over the next 6 years. I purchased 10 quarts of 10-30 Quaker State and did a double oil change on my 53K. Also drained the Transmission, Overdrive and Differential and gave them new 90 W Gear Oil. Bet it had been 30 years since these had been refreshed. Thanks again for this interesting read. My final conclusion. If it aint broke don't fix it!! ;D