Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Terry T on October 21, 2011, 12:38:48 PM
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Is Dragon and Alligator vinyl one and the same?
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I have wanted to find some alligator vinyl for my Henry J. My understanding is that nothing is manufactured. But I got an idea the other day. There is a lady in my work office who has a large purse made of alligator pattern vinyl. I think that somewhere the maker of her purse has rollls and rolls of that vinyl. The vinyl is more shiny than on my Henry J, but it was a thought. What do you think on that?
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2 different but equally important questions.
I look forward to the experts chiming in. As for the alligator vinyl in your Henry J, my determination would be does the vinyl on the purse look similar in pattern to your vinyl? If so then virtually all vinyl can be dyed or you could "slightly" change the color.
But it would be nice to know if Alligator vinyl could be sourced from SMS or similar. Your experience says no?
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Is Dragon and Alligator vinyl one and the same?
Did some additional research and the answer is not easy. Dragons were built in 1951 and 1953. They called it Dragon vinyl in 1951 in all the iterations. (Golden Dragon / Jade Dragon, etc). It was then a distinct pattern which (no offense) would not be shared with a Henry J as KF used the Golden Dragon to go upscale.
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I have found no formal documentation to back it up, but as I recall, the Henry J used "Dinosaur Vinyl" and they called the fabric "Dragon" or "Dinosaur" so the public would know it was not real animal hyde. A lot of people refer to it as "alligator" but I don't believe KF ever did in any of their literature. Perhaps Jack can chime in - seems I read this in LOOD but I'm not in place where I can go look it up.
Also, even on the J there were different versions. The dinosaur vinyl used on the '51 cars was definitely darker and more "marbled" (more complex pattern/texture) than that which was used on the '53s that I've seen and owned.
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SMS in Oregon supposedly has this material reproduced but i understand it is pricey .
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Alligator Vinyl and Dragon vinyl are NOT the same material.
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Considering the above replies, I have found a document from KF dated Jan 26, 1951 that lists the interior choices for HJ's and it states "Dragon Vinyl" of various colors.
I would like to attach it to my reply, but I cannot figure how to do it--it isn't obvious to the casual observer!
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Hi Terry - to add an attachment when posting scroll down and click on "Attachments and other options" then you can Browse your attachment right from your C Drive. If you have the file or image on a website some where click on the "Insert Image Icon" above ( Under the B button).
I know in the 51 HJs the final pattern was different than the pattern used in the 53 HJs.
Travel On, Jim
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This is the vinyl in our 53 HJ Corsair Deluxe.
(http://circlekf.com/henryj/Photos/Inspect/Hj6_240.jpg)
This is using Image Icon above. Then pasting your URL between the [ i m g ] and [ / i m g ]
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Here is the KF document.
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Thanks.
The attachment didn't show when I did a Preview.
Soooo--what is the proper name for the viny shown in Jim's pic?
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I believe the attach document indicates my 53 Henry J Vinyl is called Burma Vinyl.
http://circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Confidential/CB85.pdf (http://circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Confidential/CB85.pdf)
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This page is from the 1951 Kaiser Parts manual.
It calls it "Reptile or Dragon Vinyl"
(http://circlekf.com/kflit/PM/kfpm550/kfpm550224.jpg)
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Here in the 1952-1953 Kaiser Parts List the same Parts Number 211230 - "Dragon, Reptile or Dinasour Vinyl"
(http://circlekf.com/kflit/PM/kfpm740/kfpm740031.jpg)
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jim, the 1953 info did not post when I looked just now. When I get back home from KY I think I can come up with black & white photos that show the upholstery.
Basically, the 1951 dragon vinyl (also used in 1953 Kaiser Travelers) had multiple pleats. It was also smoother rather than the bamboo pattern on 1953 Dragon roofs and Dragon/Manhattan dashboard padding (plus other bits of trim in the interior).
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Here is a pic of a panel that came out of a '51 HJ. I have seats and door trims that match.
It appears to be a different pattern than the seat shown in a former post.
Considering this pic, and the bulletin that I posted, can I assume that this is Caribbean Coral Dragon vinyl?
Has anyone bought vinyl from SMS? what pattern??
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Here are some photos of Harvey's Emerald Dragon. Taken at the San Diego Natl
http://circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/2011natl/4RWJ182.html (http://circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/2011natl/4RWJ182.html)
The pattern seems to match your red door panel
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At the Seaway meet there was a '51 Henry J that had the same vinyl as yours, I don't remember his name but he was from the Cleveland area, I believe.
His door panels and seats were done in that vinyl. His seats and seat backs were done in that vinyl and pleated. I don't have a lot of knowledge but I thought the '51 Henry J seats and backs had some sort of inserts, either plaid or some other color material.
Don Holt#10019
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The rear panel post from the '51 Henry J and the rear seat posting is from a '53 Henry J are indeed quite different. The pattern on that '51 rear panel was only used on those '51 Js that were equipped with all vinyl interiors. Pretty unusual for a J but not extremely rare based on my observation. If I remember correctly, the all vinyl '51 J was only available for a couple of weeks but I've seen a number of them. The one Steve Carey has is Caribbean Coral in color but the interior vinyl always looked more pink to me - not deep red such as the one Terry posted. The all vinyl Js also had chrome trim strips on the door panels. What's interesting is Edgar Kaiser's Henry J has two chrome strips on the door panels and one on the rear seat side panels which I've never seen in another J.
(http://home.comcast.net/~ljfid/DCP03054wb.jpg)
It also has chrome ashtrays in the back and chrome visor hangers.
The trim code for Edgar's car is 888 so who knows what was done at the time.
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Here are pictures of my 53 DeLuxe with Burma Brown Dinosaur vinyl trim #5003.
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Click on each of the pictures in my previous post. They blow up nice.