Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Frazer Forum => Topic started by: Doc on December 17, 2011, 04:21:25 PM
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Anyone have any typical measuerments of the vacuum gauge reading on the '51 Frazer? I believe I have finally gotten the timing close to 4 BTDC by using a vacuum gauge to try and tune the car. Vacuum gauge reads 18.5-19" on startup and then settles in to 18". Unable to get 19-20" w/o reaming out the passenger side adjustment hole on the distributor base more than what I've already done (about 1/8"). Miserable time trying to get that irritating nuisance dual adjustment holes distributor adjusted on this car. Previous post (http://kfclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,1010.0.html) in March 2010. As far as driveability, little progress all this time although many other problems have persisted with restoring the car.
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According to service bulletin nbr 58, dated 3/24/48, engine vacuum at idle should be between 18 and 21", and hold steady. Any drop would be indicative of bad rings, sticky valves or leaking gaskets.
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OK, it's right at 18-19" "now" and no dropping. Engine rebuilt in 2009 with all new components but we've persistently had problems with the timing along with a multitude of other problems including carburetors, fuel pumps, what have you. Everything new or refurbished including all the basics like tanks, lines, fittings, electricals, etc. I don't know how it is possible, but in checking through the many notes over the past two years, I see where I have had the timing set at 4 BTDC at least two or three times to only come back later (as the case this week) and find that it has changed. Some kind of a gremlin. This week I found the timing mark to be above the pointer maybe 10+ degrees when viewed with the timing light (cannot recall at the moment if that's advanced or retarded). But oddly enough it fired up and idled very smoothly but would choke down and back fire under load (I think that's characteristic of retarded but not sure). That's when one more time again I had to play with the adjustment slot holes.
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Sounds like bad distributor advance springs.
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Well, I hope not as we opened up the distributor last year and found that to be the case and then we cleaned and lubricated the parts very well and confirmed operation before putting it back together. But having jogged the memory on that, perhaps it's time for another looksee. We really cleaned it good and sprayed lubricating SiliKroil such that we wouldn't have anticipated a problem again.
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BTW, the characteristics of this engine not running today are the same as before AND after we cleaned and lubed the advanced springs. As you can see from the 12/17 post, the engine timing was set with a timing light to 4 BTDC and the vacuum gauge read 18.5-19" after the plugs were cleaned.....so the car obviously started back up after that change. Advance forward to afternoon of 12/19 and the car would NOT start. Hit the starter button and the reaction was no starter engagement.....something like way too advanced or retarded....but NO starter kickback. Continued to try to start the car and it barely did WITHOUT any initial reading on the vacuum gauge. Repeated rapid depressions of the gas pedal and the gauge reacted but only up to 12-15" vacuum and piles of blue/white smoke billowed out the tailpipe and the car would NOT idle and just ran beyond poorly. With that I shut it down. "Something" is plaguing this engine. HOW can it run at 4 BTDC and 18.5-19" vacuum on one day and two days later it will hardly even start and then will not run. Yes, we've checked the distributor outside the car for integrity on more than one occasion. Once upon a time I even drove this car a couple miles and ascended a couple pretty steep hills...but a few days later you could forget about it. ONLY thing I can come up with after all this is to scrap the entire distributor and associated components and start over with a replacement distributor if I can find one. That would be the very last thing I could try. Frustration level on this car is just about maxed out.
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We need to document situations like this as well as what turned out to be the solutions. The information should go into a future release of the Handbook on CD so car owners & mechanics could use the information as a reference if they have the problem. But inclusion in the Handbook will be up to whoever is going to do it when I stop doing updates the end of this year.
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What's the number on your distributor? I'm guessing it's an Autolite and should be something like IGS4211 or IGS4214. I might have a spare to lend to test your bum distributor theory...
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I'll get the Distributor # tomorrow. As far as I know it is the Autolite that came on the car when we acquired it in 2007. I only have one extra distributor off a Vagabond parts car but it is really eaten away by rust and years exposed outside, so pretty much useless.
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Autolite IGS 4214 2E but at this time it does not matter anymore. This afternoon I heard a dripping sound and found antifreeze leaking out the tailpipe to exhaust manifold flange and when I checked the radiator, it was void of even one drop of coolant.....that's what all the white puffing smoke was about. No other option for now but to have the car towed to my another garage out of site out of mind out of the way. Entirely too much time and expense wasted trying to get it going.
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Doc: Since your engine was rebuilt in 2009, I have a suggestion to correct your head gasket
failure. When the head is removed, have them re-tap all the head bolt holes to clean the
threads. Corroded threads can give false torque readings when the head is reinstalled if this
is not done. Also, if NEW head bolts were not used in the 2009 rebuild, replace them this time
with new bolts. Sixty plus years from the original bolts is enough service from them. If they clean
the head and block properly your problems should now be solved once and for all.
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Thanks for the advice. I will heed to it. I did not find any charge for new head bolts in the September 2009 invoice and since the job was two years ago and done by a shop not local, I doubt if I could readily find the answer, but hopefully so when this head comes off. The shop indeed did deck block, surfaced the head, all the normal things with an engine rebuild. But I have to say that another engine done previousy by the same place also had to have the head gasket replaced within a few hundred miles, but I would have thought lessons would have been learned.
BTW, does this engine have manifold bolts that screw into the water jacket? I have not personally done the engine work on this car.
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Stand by on your question about bolts going into the water jackets. While this is not likely, I do have a full-size blueprint of the 226 engine block from this time frame (13 feet long, 4 feet wide). Too late tonight to pull it out and go through it but I should be able to do it tomorrow afternoon (12/22) after I get home from the Ford Engine Plant I am a resident engineer at.
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Standing by. Just trying to eliminate any source for the problem other than the head gasket. A cracked block I certainly do not anticipate at this point.
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In the interim, the oil pan was drained and indeed maybe up to 1/2 quart of coolant in it. Radiator completely drained and moving on to the block at some point. I'm just unable to discern if the manifold bolts go into the water jacket from what I have available and I'm not getting into disassembly....that'll be for someone else.
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Some of the cylinder head bolts do indeed go into the water jacket. I think the manifold studs do too. I know when I blew a head gasket on the 54, it was due to worn threads on a few of the head bolts that allowed coolant to work its way into the combustion chamber. If you cracked the block, you would have noticed an overheating condition.
A teardown of the engine would be a good idea.
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Doc: I recently had a valve job on my '51 due to two stuck valves that I could not get loose. The
shop broke one bolt and replaced 5 more due to corrosion. When I picked the car up, the cost was $1. per bolt. I wished that they would have called me because I would have said replace then all.
I think there are 34 of them, so $34. would have been reasonable. Now I wonder if what happened
to you may happen to me, especially on a trip. The head looked like it had never been off and so
all bolts were original.
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At this point I cannot say about the bolts. But the engine was a total rebuild in the fall of 2009 and included vat clean complete motor, surface the head, guides, valves, freeze and galley plugs, bearings, bore and hone, deck block, grind crank, pins and bushings, etc.
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So what hardness or type head bolts are we looking for? I'm about to replace the head gasket on my 54 as well. Other opinions on replacing all head bolts during this process?
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I can't read my old ones, but the the new ones have 3 slash marks in the form of a "Y" which means a
grade 5 on the Rockwell hardness scale.
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You will want to use grade 8 cap screws. The problem is that the factory length is right in between the 2 most common sizes available thru most quality hardware outlets. I had to special order mine and they ran nearly $2 each...which was worth it to me to ensure that I had clean, fresh thread to work with.