Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mbflemingkf on January 08, 2012, 05:04:34 PM
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Well, as I was about to start my project of replacing the head gasket in my 54 Manhattan, a buddy suggested I check the compression before pulling the head. Having not done this before, I borrowed a compression tester and here's what I got:
#1-95
#2-100
#3-60
#4-65
#5-90
#6-95
I believe the head gasket is blown due to some other symptoms. So what do you guys think? Should I go ahead with the head gasket replacement? What role do the valves have in this? Are they completely accessible from the side or is there something I need to do or check with them when I have the head off?
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Thanks, Mike
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It looks like you're going to have to pull the head Mike. When you do, closely inspect #3 and #4 exhaust valves and seats. The 226 is notorious for burning those valves as the two exhaust valves are side by side with no water jacket between them. I've seen it numerous times. You may need to take a dentist type mirror and carefully inspect the surface of the valves where they make contact with the seat and see if they're cracked/burned and then inspect the seat as well. Removing the values is not too tough and if the seats are burned, most machine shops will come to your place and replace the seats. If the seats are not too badly burned, you may be able to just replace the valve and lap it into the seat with some compound. Actually, in most cases I've encountered, replacing just the valve is all that's necessary.
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Mike, did you squirt oil in 3 and 4 and retest? If compression increases you have a ring sealing problem. If it does not increase, you have leaking valves or a head gasket leak between the cylinders and they are swapping compression.
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Stoker, do I squirt oil in there and wait a certain period of time or just retest right away? I did squirt some in #3 and checked again but it didn't change. Is there any danger in doing it again? How much oil am I putting down the plug hole anyway??
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Mike, While i was at the San diego Meet I had the same problem, Larry Barker came by and told me to re torque the head bolts between 3&4 and i would probably would have to do it more than once. lowe and behold he saved me the job of re doing the gasket again, when i got home the bolts again had to be torqued to specs, Ive been tightening the bolts to 50 pounds/foot and the gasket was supposed to be the one time only torque type
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Dusty, what are your compression readings on each of your 6 cylinders? Anyone else, what are your compression readings? Is 95 to 100 high enough. I read in the Service Specs its suppossed to be 120. This was suppossed to be a rebuild engine already (abeit about 17 years ago). Thanks, guys...
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Mike, squirt about a teaspoon full of oil down EACH cylinder and with ALL of the spark plugs removed, redo your compression test. Give the oil 2 or 3 minutes to works its way down around the rings. Any motor oil is fine. If the numbers increase, you have faulty rings. If the numbers stay the same, you either have a valve seating issue (burned vale(s)) or worn seats or perhaps...and this is rarely the case, head bolts that need retorqued. As was mentioned, if the numbers don't come up at least by 15-20 lbs, retorque the head bolts, run the engine to operating temp and rerun the compression test.
My 54 blew the head gasket between 3 and 4 while driving thru Chicago traffic. I drove all the way into Wisconsin and back to the Ohio/Indiana line before it finally let go and the car quit. Quite a testament to the ruggedness of the KF engine!
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Hi,
Several points worth knowing:
1. The Kaiser-Willys Service Bulletin that covers 1954 Kaiser and Willys Passenger Car engines shows the 226 at 120-130 for compression; you are way off the mark across the board.
2. The comments about burned valves are for the most part correct, especially if the engine has not had the required/suggested valve adjustments as noted in servicing information. Also be aware that the 1954 226 engines for Kaisers had valve rotators installed; they are supposed to slightly turn the valves each combustion cycle to help prevent the burning issue.
3. If this engine does NOT already have hardened valves and valve seats installed, it would not be a bad idea to do it. Today's gasoline does not have the lead in it that was used when our cars were new to help lubricate and insullate (especially on exhaust valves) those parts of the engine. Kaiser and Willys 226 blocks were not induction hardened until late in the 1959 model year.
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Is that 50 ft-lbs now acceptable versus the manual's 30-35 ft-lbs? Perhaps that contributed to my "assumed" blown head gasket on a rebuilt engine with less than miles on it albeit numerous start ups and idles. I don't need to be breaking any head bolts whenever this engine should ever be addressed down the pike.
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If you have all new head bolts installed, it may not be too risky. Otherwise, sounds like a great way to snap off a few in the block. I'd recommend sticking with the 30-35 lb as recommended.
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The symptom you have is consistent with every case of a burned exhaust valve that I've had. 105 - 120 lbs on all cylinders except 60 on 3 or 4. It's certainly worth trying the other suggestions first before tearing into it.
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Mike the readings are as follows the engine has 6-8 hours running on the Ed Ewing engine since overhauled and trailered to San Diego #1--117 #2 115-- #3 119 #4 118--#5 110-- #6 111 I was working on the carb today and will run another comp check later next week , after reading all about the other inputs it should be interesting. The head has been decked and the head milled, hard valve seats.high output oil pump and water pump w/ss vanes & recored radiator
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All, my 54 Kaiser Kaiser won't start AT ALL now. It's getting spark to the points and I've checked and double checked everything several times. Have lost count on how many times I'm removed and cleaned the spark plugs. New condenser, tried 2 rotors and 2 coils...all the same. It spins like it wants to start, but nooooooooo. Getting gas and even sprayed starter spray in the carb. Removed, cleaned points, and reset.
Is it possible that with this compression at only 60 lbs on 3 & 4 that it just quit alltogether?
I'm at a total loss as to what to do next!!?? :'(
PS...there seems to be more gas laying in the bottom of the carb box (54 Kaiser). Is this normal? Is gas suppossed to leak through somehow?
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With all the problems I've had with this '51 Frazer, I'm not sure I can be any help other than to suggest perhaps check the neutral safety switch if there's one on the steering column, check for vacuum hose off or vaccum leak, make sure the distributor has not turned and changed the timing, be sure you have a full 6V starting power. I could not get my '54 Early Special to start awhile back and finally used one of those big 6V/12V rolling starters from ebay and got the thing fired up. Believe, I know the fustration!
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Mike,
This summer I drove my 53 K in the AM, parked it and it would not start in the PM. Had new plugs, points, condenser. Key on had spark to coil. Turned out though when the key went to the start position the power to the coil went away. Ran a hot wire to the coil and it started right up. Had to replace the ignition switch to fix the problem. I did lose some hair over this but runs great now.
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There's something about modern sparkplugs that causes problems with them. I've had the symptom you describe twice and both times, a new set of plugs fixed it. I had the car really flooded once, left the plugs out in the sun to dry all day - no start. Put in a new set and took right off. Very strange. And when I did the spark test, of course it had spark but I checked it at the wire by arcing the wire agains the head bolt. A better test would be to remove the plug and ground the plug end and run the starter and see if there is actually spark at the plug itself. It may be worth a try.
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Jim & Lowell...these are both good ideas and I'll try them tomorrrow. I've put a solid 8 hors in this already...very frustrating and discouraging. First time in the 4 years I've owned the car that I can't get it to start. I'm not even pumping the gas but I'm smelling gas like crazy. WTH?
:(
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mbflemingkf: If somehow you have flooded the engine, the gas washing down the cylinder walls
causes loss of compression and the car won't start. Friends of mine have done this in the past
and the only way to get the engine started was to push it for several city blocks. Carb problems
can also cause flooding. I have had a car run fine and then I shut it off and several days later it would
not start and smelled strongly of gas. I took the top of the carb off and the fuel bowl was dry! If you
push start it and several days later this problem reoccurs, the carb is the the cause.
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I think the car is seriously flooded. Remove the lugs and leave them out for a day. If you have an air compressor, blow some air down each plug hole to help dry things out a bit. Replace the plugs with new, then try again.
If you're seeing alot of fuel in the carb box, it's either due to loose mount bolts...happened to me on my 54...or the throttle rod bushings are worn, and that's allowing fuel to leak into the box.
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I had a similar problem with my 54 ....in my case I needed fresh plugs....and make shure the choke is fully closed, if it isn't the car just floods out
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Mike, spring for a set of new spark plugs and see what happens. I gas fouled my Dragons plugs early on and the only way I could start it was to squirt some engine oil in each cylinder spin it over a few times then install the new plugs. Wella! it started.
Chris
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UPDATE!!! No...no luck! Will not start. Replaced condenser, coil, and left plug holes open for 24 hours. Bought new spark plugs today and put them in...no change. I think I've tried everything except the suggestion of pushing the car for a few blocks which will not happen. Arrrrrggggggg....gotta be something simple! Still open to suggestions.
How can a car that ran so well and never had a starting problem go south for no apparent reason?!
:'(
Mike
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Just some input Mike - the two low cylinders will not cause it to not start. Is it possible the timing is off? That would probably happen only if you were messing with it though but you never know. It would have to be off quite a bit to make it not start or fire but I have seen that. How much corrosion is inside the distributor cap? In the main hole/socket where the coil plugs in check it and see if it's making good contact. Also, it sounds like you been there, but if the point gap is off, it will throw the timing off but probably not enough to make it not start.
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If you thoroughly flooded it you may have washed down the cylinder walls and lost compression. When I let my Kaiser set for a couple of years an old mechanic had me put a little oil into each cylinder. It worked but it smoked until the oil burned out.
Lee
Olympia Washington
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Hey Mike, I just remembered I had this problem with my 47 Studebaker Champion Bus coupe years ago, When I took the distributer cap off and spun the motor, the distributer was NOT turning, the problem was the gear on the distributer shaft. I am NOT a mechanic, just a old car nut and do what litttle basic stuff I can, So, I don't know if the Kaiser mmotor is set up the same way, but, if it is, may be worth a check, I really hope it is something more simple. Best of luck.
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If the distributor is installed so that it is 180 degrees out of time it will not start. Also the distributor rotor turns counter clock wise, if you have installed the wires starting with number one clock wise it will not start. If you cannot get it started with the starter, I think you are wasting your time trying to start it by pulling it.
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Summary check list
1. Start with distributor cap off. Does distributor rotor turn? If not gear or other part connecting distributor are out (gears can jam or break on a 50+ year old anything). If it does turn, does it turn in the right direction?
2. NEW ITEM NOT PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED. Have you checked the small piece of braided wire on the distributor plate? Corrosion and normal engine vibration will break the wire at one (or both) of the connection points or inside the insullation. It looks normal but no electricity gets through. If wire has not been replaced, recommend you do so on general principles.
3. NEW ITEM NOT PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED: If the distributor is Delco-Remy, check for the stiffness of the bent contact on the rotor. High voltage cannot jump the distance if (as happens over time) the bent contact is worn due to age and does not stay up to contact the piece on the bottom of the cap. If distributor is Auto-Lite, check to see if the spring on the contact in the cap still "bounces" over time these will rust and corrode freezing the contact in place. As it touches the rotor it will wear and if the spring cannot let it drop, again high voltage cannot jump the distance. If in doubt, replace cap with a good new one.
4. Check points and condenser for proper operation. If they have not been replaced in the last 4 years, they should be replaced on general principles. Make sure points are properly gapped. Be sure to check the contact point where the points hit the rotor to open and close. Plastic contacts in particular will wear to the point where the rotor no longer hits and points do not work.
5. Check coil and verify it is properly connected (correct ground) and that you get spark to distributor.
6. REMEMBER THAT WITH TODAY'S GASOLINES, YOUR FUEL SYSTEM ROTS OUT IN ONLY A FEW YEARS! ALL PLASTIC OR NEOPREME SEALS AND COMPONENTS IN THE CARB AND RUBBER FUEL LINES ROT OUT UNLESS MADE TO PROPER SAE SPECIFICATIONS. If you have not had major fuel system components and fuel lines checked/replaced in the last 4 years, they should be checked for fuel-related damage (your EPA at work changing gas formulas almost annually to the point where late model vehicles are suffering as well).
7. If spark plugs are suspected, have them checked at a garage; replace with heat range type A-5 plugs and adjust timing based on 1951 Kaiser-Frazer Shop Manual settings. Helps reduce engine operating temperature which helps deflect vapor lock a bit.
8. Check timing chain for proper operation and tightness. Chains will stretch a bit over time, causing the engine to not hold timing.
9. If the car has at least 9,000 miles on it since last valve adjustment, adjust valves as needed.
10. Pull head to check condition of valve heads and seats; you are looking for valves that appear burnt or otherwise not seating properly. Prolounged use of unleaded gasoline without hardened valves and valve seats will cause valve seat recession and improper seating of valves.
5.
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mbflemingkf: The 226 engine starting/running problem comes down to two issues: is it electrical/mechanical or fuel/mechanical? Pull cap off and turn over the motor to see if rotor turns.
You said you have spark at the points, so pull the coil wire out of the cap and have someone
hold the metal end 3/16 above the block. With key "on", open and close points to see if coil wire
arcs to the head with a blue spark. If it arcs put everything back together. If timing chain hasn't
jumped dramatically, engine should attempt to fire up. Your clue was gas smell, but you do not want to push start you car (an old pair of tires will protect bumpers if that is your worry) so spray a shot of wd40 into each spark hole and turn motor over several times with plugs out. Then put plugs in and try to start, but do not pump gas pedal! I use a old Windex bottle with gas in it and give one spray into carb throat. If you crank over for 10-15 sec and engine tries to fire, give only one more squirt and try again. If it tries again to fire and does not start, you may have to push it to restore compression. It sounds like your carb is flooding engine when it sits. This is not uncommon. If you get her started, and you again smell gas an hour or two after shutting motor off
then pull carb off, make sure fuel bowl is full and let sit for a day or two. If carb leaks or goes dry,
you found the culprit.
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WOW! Some good new ideas I haven't tried. Got a buddy coming over Thursday night that more mechanical then me...we'll try some of these!!! Hopefully some good news on Friday! ;)
Thanks, guys...Mike
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Finally...VICTORY!!!! Reba is running! After replacing pretty much all of the electrical components, I think it really came down to the fact that "the engine was seriously flooded" (in the words of our wise Club VP Jim Lape). Several others of you suggested this may be the problem too including boatingbill.
We found the electric fuel pump switch was flipped to the "on" position and likely was when I did the compression check. I didn't even hear the GD thing but my buddy said "what's the humming sound?" (he's younger than me and has better hearing)!!
Guys, thanks for all the helpful suggestions along the way. I did get to learn my ignition system better so at least the frustration had some benefit!
Now to pulling the head and see what we have going on there over and above a blown gasket!
Doc, I really feel for the problems you had trying to get your 51F engine to run. My problems were minor compared to yours. Good luck on the other car.
Stay tuned.
Mike :)
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Great news Mike! A severely flooded engine can be a real pain to get past. I remember when I put the 6 cylinder engine in my '52 Henry J Vagabond back in '01, I did the same thing - flooded it real bad and could not get it started. I did not know that was what I had done till a week or so later. I was somewhat new to fuel systems at the time and I had purchased a new fuel pump from Ron Meditz. Being a novice at that time, I ran the fuel line through the vacuum boost section on that pump which has a much larger diaphram and pushes a lot more gasoline! More than the carb needle valve can stop. I remember running the starter and having gasoline spray out the top of the carb and acting like a windsheild washer! Also, I had a partial exhaust pipe coming off the manifold. I got the clue that something was wrong when I noticed gasoline leaking out the exhaust pipe! Now there's a clue that you're flooded... Once I figured out I had the fuel line going through the wrong section of the pump, I still could not get the car started. Ultimately, it came down to a fresh set of plugs and removing the carb and spraying a light dusting of starting fluid directly into the manifold while cranking the engine over. The cylinders fired, and we knew we were good to go. The fluid burns very dry and cleared the cylinders up. Reinstalled the carb and it started right up and has run great ever since.