Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Kaiser Forum => Topic started by: pnw_oldmags on March 09, 2012, 07:37:33 PM
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Trying to make a list of ways to identify a 1953 Carolina...
1 - Data Plate Model would be 538-1 or 538-4
2 - Serial Plate would start with K538
3 - Front bumper would have no bananas or bumper guards
4 - No Script on front fenders
5 - Headlight rings should be stainless rings like a Henry J
6 - Steering Wheel should be just a round center
7 - Only a Driver Side Visor
8 - Only a Driver Side B-Pillar Light
9 - No K plaque on glove box
10 - Hard rubber Steering Wheel
11 - Inside Door Handles and window cranks are like Henry J
12 - Hub caps can be full dish Ks or small center K Caps
13 - Steering Column not enclosed on Manual Trany like Manhattans are.
14 - NO stainless down the sides.
Thoughts, changes, additions??
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The radio knobs should be same on all kaisers as they were part of the standard kit.
Be aware that 1953 Kaiser Carolina models were "eligible" for all accessory items that worked with a Kaiser deLuxe, including Wire Wheels. The Confidential Bulletin announcing that accessory to dealers says ALL Kaiser models.
Best and easiest way to identify a Carolina is the door post tag and the serial number prefix of 538 matched by a body serial number that has the 538 prefix also.
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The Henry J Radio knobs idea came from photo #3
http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2009/10/01/hmn_feature7.html (http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2009/10/01/hmn_feature7.html)
Look at photo #3 in this great spread. A very nice Carolina!
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Those aren't Henry J knobs. Those are the knobs which were used on the 1949/50 KF radios and the 1951 Frazer radio. Rudy reproduces them so likely the owner of this car was missing knobs, which many are, and bought these from Rudy because that's what he had. The radio in that photo is the standard KF issue one of the era and would have originally had the chrome knobs.
Another thing that's interesting about that Carolina is it has a Hydramatic. Wes Durst has a black Carolina tudor which is equipped with a Hydramatic.
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Kaiser Carolina Parts Manual 1953
(http://circlekf.com/kflit/PM/kfpm760/kfpm760_preview.jpg)
The PDF of this 4 page Manual, small but interesting
http://circlekf.com/kflit/PM/kfpm760/kfpm760.pdf (http://circlekf.com/kflit/PM/kfpm760/kfpm760.pdf)
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Jim:
May be you should ask the man that owned one. Bill Deloney of Prescott AZ had one and Del Fankhauser still has one (Lowell can comment on that).
After looking at these 2 Carolinas, I wanted to pull my hair out from the seemingly stupid way Kaiser did these cars. They are supposed to be price leaders. They should have had less equipment than the DeLuxe series, but that doesn't seem true. I could have removed $15 more (1953 dollars) of equipment on those cars. You DON'T want your dealers selling Carolinas; you want them to sell DeLuxes or (hopefully) Manhattans. Kaiser should not have made more than 25 of these cars, tops.
Studebaker had a similar model in 1957-58: The Scotsman*. This was a stripped Champion and Studebaker would not allow dealers to add any accessories expect for a VERY limited number. Probably because of this rigid policy, the Scotsman was a sales success (Hey times were tough for Studebaker and other car manufacturers those years so you have to scale back on what you call a success.) and that gave management the confidence to OK the Lark.
Bill Deloney pointed out to me that the trunk lock on Carolinas is different from other Kaisers. I don't think that was a big savings.
* There was also a Scotsman truck. In fact more than 50% of 1959 Studebaker trucks were Scotsmans. All Scotsman trucks were 6 cylinder. If you have a 59 Stude truck with a a V8 it is a DeLuxe and not a Scotsman. And if it has a 289V8 and 4wd it is VERY rare - like one of 15.
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You never know what some of those car manufacturers would do. I remember seeing a 1967 Camaro SS with a factory six cylinder engine! The owner told me he bought the car in the early 1980s, noticed it was a tag matching car so, much to his credit, he chose to leave it alone. Very strange - who ponies up the cash for an SS and opts for a 6 cylinder engine? Del's Carolina is pretty true to what it would've been originally. He did add a factory radio and, according to the tags, it did come equipped with overdrive from the factory. Weas' '51 Kaiser Special, which my dad dubbed "Lasagna" is a bare-bones Special with no chrome at all and yet it has overdrive and a factory radio. We have the original paperwork for that car, which was purchased new by a honeymoon couple in August 1950, and the sticker lists overdrive and radio as factory installed options on it when new. It has the early GE radio with the hump in the firewall. Pretty cool.
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Kaiser-Frazer Sales Corporation could have easily cut the price tag on a Carolina another $100.00 by rolling back the margin on the car (difference between wholesale and advertised retail price). They could have done the same thing in 1950 with a rollback in margin on the base-line Henry J. Hitting the dealer in the pocketbook would definitely be a better deterrant to selling great numbers of cars than things like Tim Bedford's memo on selling the car, or rather, not selling the car.
No Kaiser-Frazer dealer was expected to sell Carolinas in great numbers. The car and its price was intended to get people into the showrooms. Salespeople were expected to sell up to a Manhattan (forget the deLuxe) or down to a well-equipped Corsair Deluxe if delivered price was significant. From what I can gather, it seems that total Carolina production (2 door and 4 door versions) came out to around 1 of these per dealer. That way, a dealer could stock 1 car and advertise the price.
Check out what I wrote about the Carolina in my K-F book, BUILT TO BETTER THE BEST.
Oh yes, don't forget things like the Avanti that the Studebaker dealer in Thorp, Wisconsin had. Forced to take an Avanti even though the dealer felt he couldn't sell one, he ordered the car with no options; it came with a 3-speed manual shift on the column! For a number of years in the 1970's you could find the car at the OLD CARS show in Iola, still showing its original window sticker.
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Found a Carolina in the woods and it followed me home. It is in pieces but mostly there. It will be an interesting restoration.
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Alright, an overdrive car! ;D
Condition looks decent for being left sitting in the woods.
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Condition of body is great. But lots of the parts are gone. So I will be insearch of a second parts car to pickup the missing parts. Inventory, preserve and start the search for a donor car. 53 Deluxe or Carolina if possible. Here are a few more photos
http://circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/pnwcars/k-538-001166.html (http://circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/pnwcars/k-538-001166.html)
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Lowell: Chevy did some strange things with the SS package at times. There were 2 65 Impala SS locally with 6 cylinder engines, not even the base V8. And I am told Impala SS at that time could be had with a bench seat - no console. So you buy a car with a special trim package and then delete most of the special items!
When I first became involved with Kaisers, I was surprised because nearly 1/2 of the 51 Specials I ran across had Hydramatic trans. May be it was chance or may be a car with an automatic was not scrapped as quickly as a 3 spd or OD car (I doubt that though). May be it had something to do with factory allocations - after all a surprising percentage of Allstates and HJs were sold in Texas. I think really we tend to think of a 51 Special or later DeLuxes as "strippers" when they really aren't. Most of what came on a Manhattan could be installed at the factory or by your smiling local dealer on your Special.
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ADDING A FEW MORE
Trying to make a list of ways to identify a 1953 Carolina...
1 - Data Plate Model would be 538-1 or 538-4
2 - Serial Plate would start with K538
3 - Front bumper would have no bananas or bumper guards
4 - No Script on front fenders
5 - Headlight rings should be stainless rings like a Henry J
6 - Steering Wheel should be just a round center
7 - Only a Driver Side Visor
8 - Only a Driver Side B-Pillar Light
9 - No K plaque on glove box
10 - Hard rubber Steering Wheel
11 - Inside Door Handles and window cranks are like Henry J
12 - Hub caps can be full dish Ks or small center K Caps
13 - Steering Column not enclosed on Manual Trany like Manhattans are.
14 - NO stainless down the sides.
Thoughts, changes, additions??
15. Inside Mirror Base is painted not chromed
16. No remote hood latch release
17. No trunk light
18. No rear ashtray / cigar lighter on the back of the front seat
19. Rear door wing windows are fixed … they do not open
20. Door Ventilator Division Bars were painted black not stainless
MOre to come I am sure.
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I think all Carolinas had beige lower dash,steering column,inst cluster and window moldings.The brown vinyl used was plain not dinosaur.The seat cloth was not corduroy like the DeLuxe but plainer. I didn't know about no inside hood latch. Carolinas had bumper guards like the DeLuxe with no bullets or bananas.
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Please check out the info in the KFOCI HANDBOOK Version 4.0 on the car. It will help fill some of the blanks
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I think this radio blank says "Carolina"!
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I checked the '53 parts book supplement and it does not list a seperate radio delete cover for the Carolina. Of course the Deluxe may have used a painted one and if so it would be listed in the full version of the parts supplement. Also, they may have painted the chrome ones to match the dash in the Carolinas. You never know... it could be.
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Thanks for the feed back Fid... I picked up some more parts for the Carolina today. I need to find an original 53K Deluxe to study. My Manhattan experience says inside hood release. This is the hood release for the Carolina. Is this unique to the Carolina or are the Deluxes like this also?
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C'mon people!
As noted in the KFOCI HANDBOOK the Carolina is a de-trimmed Kaiser Deluxe; when it was reported to the Automobile Manufacturers Association it was originally named the Kaiser Special (yes, it's on the cover page of the questionaire).
Since nobody wants to make use of the material, I won't bother with the revisions.
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Maybe you would be kind enough to share the questionaire you speak of ... that would be great!
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Anyone wanting a copy of the Automobile Manufacturers Association document that K-F filled out and sent to the Association covering specifications (and in some cases brand of item used) for all 1953 Kaisers (from Dragon to "Special") is currently available on eBay or through Walter Miller in Syracause NY. I have a number of the AMA documents at present and the 1953 item showed up only recently; my order is going in next week.
You can read through parts of it on eBay to get a better feel for this document if you've never seen one before. No, it won't tell you who made the upholstery, what pleat widths were used, etc.
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My 53 DeLuxe has an inside hood latch. I think this was standard for all 53s except Carolina.
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Rialto... In the list of 20 below - how many items are like that on your deluxe.
I would like to limit by dropping those things that were standard on the deluxe model as well.
THANKS
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Comparing Carolina to Deluxe.
This would look better if I could put it next to the original list of twenty.
This list is for 53 DeLuxe
1. Data plate Deluxe 531-1 531-4
2. Serial plate K531
3. Bumper guards same
4. Kaiser Deluxe on front fenders
5. Headlight rims winged diecast rims like Manhattan
6. Steering wheel chrome horn ring like Manhattan
7. Two sun visors made of cardboard with dinasaur grain
8. Same single dome light
9. Same no K on glovebox
10. Same hard rubber steering wheel
11. Same Henry J handles inside
12. Same small or large wheel covers
13.
14. Narrow stainless on sides
15.
16. inside hood latch like Manhattan
17. two trunk lights like Manhatten
18. Same no rear ashtray lighter
19. Same rear vent windows don't open
20. Door ventilator dividng bars stainless like Manhattan
21. Carolinas only have 1 interior Sportman's Beige fabric with Burma Brown vinyl trim early trim #5220 or 5022
late #5023 or 5223
l
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I left #13 and #15 blank because I dont know. My car has automatic so I dont know about the shift cover. I'll have to take a close look at the mirror.
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Thank you very much ... This is exactly what I was looking for. This will change my list a lot. I never realized how much different the deluxe was from the manhattan.
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With Rialto's help I now understand that some changes happened coming down from a Manhattan Model to a Deluxe Model
When coming down from a Deluxe Model to the Carolina Model these are the Only changes that make a Carolina different from a Deluxe.
Deluxe Carolina
Data Plate 531-1 or 531-4 538-1 or 538-4
Serial Plate K531 K538
Front Fender Script Kaiser Deluxe None
Headlight Rings Winged Diecast Rims Stainless Rings
Steering Wheel Horn Ring Chrome Horn Ring Chrome Center Only
Inside Visors Two Drivers Side Only
Rub Rail Molding Narrow Stainless None
Hood Latch Release Remote Manual
Trunk Light Two Lights None
Door Ventilator Divison Bars Stainless Painted Black
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#22 to the list 53 Carolinas use the smaller diameter 51-52 muffler and tailpipe. They do use the new for 53 exhaust manifold and front pipe. Nobody would notice if you had the wrong one though.
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Let's take this in another direction now. What on this Carolina, is not original to a Carolina?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-2-Door-Kaiser-Carolina-1953-2-Door-Kaiser-Carolina-/180867887792?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2a1c90f2b0#v4-42
These items were not standard on a Carolina: Headlight trim, inside door handles/window cranks, horn ring... rub moulding (although there was an accessory kit that could be purchased to add it), clock (again, available as a dealer installed option but no original to a Carolina), '49/'50 Kaiser hubcaps...
Anyone see anything else?
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Dont belong Bumper Bananas
Ribbed radiator hose incorrect
Hose clamp incorrect
Headliner wrong
Passenger side visor not correct
Driver Side Visor should be cardboard
Carpets should be rubber mats
Door Ventilator Bars appear to be stainless ... should be black painted
Interior Burma Vinyl replacement seems way to smooth
and the insert cloth is not even close to a Contemporary Cloth
My thoughts ...
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This car has rear arm rests . DeLuxes only have front arm rests. Carolinas probably do too. Rear opening vents were added. I dont know about the locking glove compartment. I've seen ones with no key hole but dont know what model they belong on. The dash etc has been painted grey.
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There appears to be a hanger hook on the rear inside window surround.
Don't remember seeing that in the available parts list.
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I know of a 53 Dragon that Quality control missed the hanger over the rear door. You could feel the plate behind the Headliner. I thought someone lost it or need it for another vehicle. But No hole in the Bambu Vinyl so it never had one instilled ???
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My 53 DeLuxe doesn't have hanger hooks. A Carolina wouldn't either. I dont know if the hooks are supposed to be mounted on the window frame or above it on a two door Manhattan.
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Our 2 Door 53 Manhattan has no hanger hooks. I think that hook is an aftermarket add on. Mark it NONKF.
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i understand that the Carolina might have had 1 sun-visor but why in the parts book does it say that 2 are used in the car? please help as i have no idea. and yes i do understand that some things that kaiser did were very strange. to tool up to make an outside hood release? ( don't think it was cost effective!)
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Good catch ... the Carolina Parts List does say 2 Sun Visors were used made of Ribbed Grain Cardboard.
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Before you mark anything NONKF, be sure you check the parts book for status. Unless you are the original owner of the car or knew the car all its life, you have no way of knowing if something was missing and should be there or be there but is missing.
That's another reason why owners should have the correct service information and factory parts books (including Parts and Accessory information) for their vehicles. Otherwise you would not know that full wheel covers could be "correct" for 1952-53 Deluxe models and 1951 Kaiser specials (using the Kaiser Deluxe type cover). There are a few other dealer installed or factory installed items (for cars delivered retail) not found on the normal option list.
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I agree with everything you stated Jack. The only problem is that some (most) of the Judges never ask the owner of the car if they have documentation. The owner does not find out what was marked off until the awards are handed out. I was marked off for a Non-KF Spare Wheel Cover on my Continental Tire Kit, on my 1952 Henry J Vagabond. I was standing next to my car the whole time it was judged. You are probally aware that the Continental Tire Kit is an 'Option' on the 1952 Henry J Vagabond. So would it fall under the same category as an accessory and should not be judged? If it should be judged, then the judge should have made inquiries as to if it was correct or not prior to deducting points. I am sure that most judges have not seen to many CT Kits on HJs. The cover was a reproduction made off an original CT HJ Cover. In fact the one it was made from was on the HJ just a few cars down from mine.
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The bigger problem is that the membership of this club lets the judging process fall apart year after year. I see nothing coming out of the Business Meeting that indicates the issue of fixing the problems with judging is ever brought up. I would love to be corrected on that point.
The system I proposed years ago required judges to leave a copy of the judging sheet with the car when judges were finished AND that all members would have access to judging information as a restoration/upgrade tool.
As long as there is apathy on this point, nothing will change.
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Jack,
I like the idea of giving a carbon copy of the judging sheet to the car owner immediately after the judging. That way the owner has the ability to contest a mismarked item (like points off for non-stock when it may have been stock) before the awards ceremony. Gives the owner a chance to present documentation, too. Most of the judges don't talk to the owner while their car is being judged. That should change so we end up with less mistakes and less hatred for the judges.
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As pointed out in an earlier post, some items found on a Deluxe could also be added to a Carolina by the dealer at extra charge. My Carolina has bumper "bullets", "bananas", 2 sunvisors, a clock AND a horn ring. No side chrome or script, one interior light, the smaller hubcaps plus Henry J door handles , window cranks and 52 style headlight rings. I believe this car came out of Missouri and once belonged to a Funeral Director..maybe someone knows more of its history.
Tom N. #6539
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first i will not be there this year but as a used judge i agree with "areoman" (I like the idea of giving a carbon copy of the judging sheet to the car owner immediately after the judging.) when i was first judged i got judged down for a nonkf for the package tray in my traveler.
but back to the carolinas.....is there a place you can get pictures of the interior that is correct?
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[ This is the hood release for the Carolina. Is this unique to the Carolina or are the Deluxes like this also?
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the hood release you show is the carolina only hood release. wrong for the deluxes
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Both my 53 Manhattans have had Electric Wipers. I have now seen two Carolinas with Vacuum Wipers one feed from the fuel pump and one feed from the Intake Manifold. Which way would be "normal" if there is such a thing with Kaisers :). I understand 53 Deluxes also had vacuum wipers. Are Vacuum wipers a cheaper option??
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Vacuum wipers were standard on Carolina and DeLuxe. Normally they were fed from the vacuum booster part of the double action fuel pump. Sometimes the correct double action fuel pump wasn't available so people would use a single one. Then they hooked the vacuum hose directly from the wiper motor to the intake manifold. This didn't bother the wipers much. Maybe the Carolina was so cheap that Kaiser only gave them the single type fuel pump ? Vacuum wipers were kinda lame with or without the booster.
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Boy I am glad that it does not rain much in Yakima!! Thanks for the background
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According to the info put out by Kaiser-Frazer to dealers, the vacuum booster fuel pump was supposed to provide more uniform vacuum than off the manifold. When you gave it more gas (speeding up, climbing steep hills, etc) and tapped off the manifold, the wipers would run slower as vacuum decreased. Taking your foot off the gas momentarily shot vacuum up and the wipers would go faster until vacuum stabilized. That's why the booster fuel pump was considered better.
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The AG group may indicate whether or not the car would have a "vacuum boosted fuel pump." It does on the HJ AG groups - a lot of Js did not have the dual action pump (surprise, surprise). Those that did, saw little difference, vacuum wipers are still pretty worthless - especially on the hiway when you're in overdrive. I always apply Rain-X to the windows and then the wipers are not needed. Drove my '52 all the way to Sublette (360+ miles) in the rain and never turned the wipers on. They probably wouldn't have helped much if I had.
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The Carolina Dataplates I have seen have an Accessory Group 29 on them. Jack has indicated in the Handbook and on this Forum that he has seen no explanation of Carolina Accessory Groups. I would think the source vacuum is probably a mid run change or even a what is available call by the production line supervisor. Thoughts?
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It was my understanding that all 1953 Kaisers came either with booster pump and vacuum wipers or single state pump and electrics; I will check the Carolina specific parts list supplement (which is already in KFOCI HANDBOOK 5.0, for release later in the year I am told) and see what it says.
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The Carolina Supplement Parts List really does not have much in it. As mostly they just removed things.
(http://circlekf.com/kflit/PM/kfpm760/kfpm760_thumb.jpg)
http://circlekf.com/kflit/kfsourcepageresults.php?pub=KF&typ=PM&nbr=760&seq=&pag=001&Submit=Search (http://circlekf.com/kflit/kfsourcepageresults.php?pub=KF&typ=PM&nbr=760&seq=&pag=001&Submit=Search)
Nothing I can see on the Fuel Pump.
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My Carolina is equipped with "bananas", bumper guards, 2 sunvisors, inside hood release, horn ring and hydramatic trans. From what I have read, if you could get an item on a deluxe, it could also be put on a Carolina.
I plan to add a model 100170 radio in the spring and convert the transmission dipstick from under the floor to under the hood.
Tom
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My dad had a 53 Manhattan that we would put accessories that we found in the salvage yard to
load it up. I also had several Carolina 2 doors that I would upgrade to a Manhattan trim level
from cars in the salvage yard. It would be easy to see why so many variations exist today. I also
upgraded my Allstate with HJ trim items. KF products were being crushed at a record rate. The
salvage yard said we could strip a entire KF product for $35. back in the 60's and we did.
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Your story is typical boatingbill. We did a lot of that too so there are many examples out there that have been updated/altered by restorers and enthusiats. Sometimes it's hard to tell what was and should be original. The tags are often the telltale.
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That's exactly why I want to build or unManhattanize a Carolina now and make it as close to how they started as possible. Five years from now it will be even harder to say "What makes a Carolina a Carolina".
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Other than adding the radio and moving the tranny dipstick, I intend to leave my Carolina just as it is. I believe it was delivered with the accessories I mentioned in my last post. Since it is such a nice car why would I ever "Manhattanize" it? I sincerely hope other Carolina owners feel the same way.
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Carolina Fan: How do you intend to move the transmission dip stick from under the floor to under the hood?
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This Carolina Owner has two Carolinas and intends to bring them back as original as possible. That is why my interest in this topic. Maybe we should start a Carolina registry so we can help preserve this cause.
We would only need one sheet of paper. Merry Christmas
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I have 2 replies
SuperK226: Club member Muriel Tinsley has developed a way to move the trans dipstick under the hood. Contact him..I know he would be glad to share his method and provide guidance as you do it.
PNW_oldmags: I think a Carolina registry would be great! I also think a Carolina category on the forum would be nice. Lets hope other Carolina owners will post their thoughts on both our suggestions.
Tom Nichols 6539
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The fuel pump question was an interesting exercise in the question of the Accessory Group 29 marking. First, the April 1953 Kaiser Carolina Parts Supplement has no listing on fuel pumps; page two of the supplements states that anything not listed in the supplement is the same as used in the 1953 Kaiser deLuxe and refers to the February 1953 Parts List Supplement for 1952 and 1953 Kaiser cars. That lists the vacumm booster type pump was used on all 1953 Kaiser Deluxe models. It is possible that the single action pump might be installed on some cars; does the car with the single action pump have anything listed under one of the M headers (M1 through M9 was header; if used, a number would appear below the header). If there is a number, the single pump may be factory installed and I would like to know.
The Accessory Group for the 1953 Kaiser deLuxe lists only Oil Bath Air Cleaner and Directional Signals in the group; the Confidential Bulletin introdicing the Carolina shows these items as standard equipment on the Carolina.
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KaiserFrazerLibrary - Any chance you could send me a scan of the Confidential Bulletin announcing the Carolina?? THANKS