Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: joefrazer on August 28, 2012, 07:28:50 PM
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I had occasion, today, to pull out some old KF Quarterlies to do some research. An ebay seller listed several photographs for sale that I determined were taken at a Midwest Division meet in 1971. While looking thru several issues from that era, I was taken aback at the sheer number of cars that were at the meets reviewed in the Quarterlies. Somewhere near 50 odd KF and Willys vehicles attended a one day meet in Arlington, Ill in October of 1971. Now I've been a member of the club since 1964 and do remember the days of 150 car national meets.
So, that poses the question...where have they gone? Surely, we haven't lost that many cars to the tinworm, or to a spun bearing!
I know, like many other single marque clubs, our membership is both aging and shrinking, but many of those long ago seen cars must still exist.
Cars like the beautiful 51 Frazer owned by Col. Johnson from Indiana, or the Frake Special, a home made car based on a Henry J, owned by Harold Frake of NY.
Names like William Brown, Dan Koert, Jesse Ehlers, and George Buchinger conjure up many a memory for someone like me. The first three gents always drove a KF product to a meet...no matter how far...and the latter...well...many of our cars are on the road because he took the time to make parts available to us.
So, what am I saying with my missive...the next time you're out and about at a car show with our Kaiser, ask those around you if they're aware of any in the neighborhood. Look up an old member to see if they're still around and take the time chat about the "old days". Who knows, another Darrin for Terry's roster may pop up, or early Kaiser or Frazer may be in that barn just down the road!
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Jim I remember division meets that would get 50+ cars. The one they had here in Mpls in Sept '76 had over 60 cars if I remember correctly. I know we had 4 there and Haller, Zimmerman and McCulloh each had multiple cars there. The Midwest meets were always big affairs due to the centeralized location. Biggest meet I remember was the National in Dearborn in '74. My memory says 300+ at that one but I have nothing but a memory so no documentation to back that up. I have my dad's home movies of it and the home movies of the cars all going back to the factory in Willow Run. That lot was full and I've never seen that many since. I wish I could find a count somewhere. I have the Quarterly that covered it, and I've read it numerous times and found no car count anywhere. Wisconsin Dells in '71 was huge too. I remember counting 10 Darrins - I have home movies of that one too and I thought I recalled 200+ cars. I'll have to look at the movies and see if I can get an idea.
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In "the old days" gasoline was well under 40 cents a gallon nationwide and Motel 6 meant $6.00/night rates for a single. Into the early 1980's low travel costs existed but now, with gas around $4.00/gallon, rooms typically $80-110 a night (check recent monthly bulletins and see for yourself) the cost of travel, especially for our older members on fixed incomes makes going to events more than 100 miles or so from home (1 way) very hard.
Also, things go in cycles. I can remember some Midwest Division meets in the 1970's where if we pulled 20 cars we were doing well compared to the meet before. If the meet can present something truly outstanding and interesting to members you can draw more cars. The KY meets and the recent Dearborn event are good examples of that. I am looking forward to see what kind of draws pop up in Empire Region and Eastern Division functions now that Barbara and I are out in this part of the country.
Bottom line is, if you can, go to a meet and take your K-F or willys product even if you only go for the day. If you have various makes of car/truck in your collection, take the K-F or Willys vehicle out to general car shows in your area rather than the Studebaker, Hudson, Chevrolet, etc, unless it is a make-specific situation. The more people that see our cars out and about, the more they may be inclined to look into ownership and take advantage of local barn finds, estate sales, etc in their areas.
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Those were the old days I remember my Dad hosted a Meet in Sterling,Il., in the 70's and there were enough cas there to have a display in a local mall and still have a lot at the grounds. I was also at The Return To Willow Run and there were lots of cars there from all over. We also always went to Seaway meets, because my Dad was friends with Ken and Blanche, and they always had a lot of cars attend. We went to the Seaway meet last fall and there were maybe 8 or 10 cars there.
It was sad to see that.
Now my granddaughters ( 4 and 5 ) are Seaway members and they can't wait to get Grandpa's Henry J,and they can't wait to go to the Seaway meet, that makes 4 generations in our family that have belonged to Seaway.
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George Buchinger ... I visited his warehouse in the early seventies.Kaiser stuff stacked 12 feet high in bins that covered at least 10,000 sq. feet.It was a real candy store". I bought a load of Henry J parts and four(4)Cj2 engines,fanbelt to flywheel,in export crates.He had many stoties about the eary days of KOFCI.
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SNIP
or the Frake Special, a home made car based on a Henry J, owned by Harold Frake of NY.
SNIP
What was the Frake Special like? Any photos? A Google search on "Frake special" or "Frake Henry J" yields nothing about any car.
And I agree: virtually all this stuff is still out there.
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Right after WWII my dad bought 3 jeep engines complete in wooden crates for $100 a piece
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Here's a picture of the Frake Special. From my old notes, the car was built on a 51 HJ chassis. The basic dash and firewall was used but pushed back to where the front seat would normally be. The car was a 2 seater and used Chevrolet, Jaguar and Ford parts...and alot of hand fabrication. It also used a 283 V8 and 3 speed transmission. As I recall, the bodywork was very well done.
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Well I am not sure what the answer is for long term viability of these marque specific clubs. For those of us not in retirement, all we can do is hang on and enjoy the ride. (I am 48)
Let's face it, our hobby is still fairly "young" and is unique. Most car clubs were organized by a few passionate folks years ago with a specific interest. It amazes me that these clubs from the Buick Club, KFOCI, WP Chrysler, Cadillac LaSalle Club and of course AACA among many others - grew so much without the aid of technology.
Now we have technology and the numbers are shrinking. One thing is consistent to me, is that older members tended to gather and enjoy and now many meets are smaller and less attended.
I always wanted to join car clubs so I could get together. You can't own every car. So to me, getting together allows one to experience other cars in the make-specific club.
I don't know, some of these old timey members that are no longer with us, and some of their parts stashes are gone or unaccounted for. I know one thing though that is relevant in my general time frame that has negatively effected the hobby and that's greed or "what is my car worth". It's normal, but regrettable.
That is why I am all for the market for cars staying low. One of my other cars has an avid following where some members want the cars crushed/parted or removed from the marketplace in order to raise the value of the cars they own!
I do not involve myself in order to make money. I want to drive and enjoy the cars. Not saying some of these old time members were greedy, probably not. In their cases - probably the next generation was not interested in the Kaiser products and the chain ended.
THAT, more then anything is the issue. (In my opinion) Most hobbies are personal, within a family. My mom collects "Fire King" cookware. I won't, although I may keep one or two of her pieces around. My dad collects nothing, but takes historical sites trips. So for all cars that are not museum quality cars - with price tags to match - I think you will continue to see a decline in membership to the very rabid among us and - this is among my hot button topics - few if any cars being restored.
Those cars not being restored are making their way to crushers or will in the next 10 years. We have a few old time members with glorified parts cars that once they pass away, the estates will probably quietly send them to the crusher. These cars were probably picked up fairly cheaply if at any cost and if you are an aging member, should be sold or given away to younger members. (Again, my opinion, that's not a demand) In some cases, you see the next generation place unrealistic price tags on the cars and even if you are a longtime KF member and friend, it doesn't matter.
The other problem is - even if these cars are given away, transport has become a huge cost variant. A while back, a nice elderly KF guy from California offered a 51 Golden Dragon project at virtually no cost. I think he wanted $250 for it or so. BUT the cost to transport it to Iowa was in the $1400 range. So, for project KF cars, my pool is limited to maybe 500-700 mile maximum radius. And this is often mentioned in response posts here - the "man, if that car was closer" mantra.
So these are difficult times where those of us with passion for the cars need to do exactly what JoeFrazer says and get them out and drive them AND respond to chapter and regional opportunities to get together.
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Roadmater49, Your statement brings up a interesting question. I talked at length with Chris
Becker whose father passed away 6 months ago. On the farm are several cars for parts and some
unrestored cars inside. He has a mix of Chrysler, Gm and Kaiser parts, but does not know what is
what by looking at these items. He has engines in sheds but of unknown condition. How can a
member go to Lincoln Nebraska and inventory all his stuff at their own expense? He said he sold
one car since June and does not want to scrap all the stuff, but is frustrated. This is a good
question for the club to address in order to save these parts. Most of the items are loose and
not in a box with a part number, so you can see the dilemma he has. How many others are out
there in a similar situation? I live near St.Louis and it would cost me $400 or more to go and look
and take pictures and try to tell him what he has, but I wouldn't try to estimate what each item
may be worth. He sound like he would prefer someone to show up with a car hauler(s) and
take the whole package. He lives a hour away from the farm I believe so it is hard to answer
any questions. This is becoming a more common problem with aging members. I have four sons
and none of them are interested unless it is a Camero or Mustang or Charger so there we are.
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boatingbill
I was kind of thinking of Gaylords (and Chris') example when I made my comments. I think 35 years ago there were more members scattered in the midwest and more patience with a situation like the Beckers. After all, a notice would go in the Bulletin and that might take 3-6 weeks, then inquiries made, etc.
I know Chris was able to quickly sell Gaylord's nice Vagabond project, which was in-turn flipped by the buyer and may be out of a club members hands. Chris of course owns a Virginian and has kept a motor-less Linden Green 49 Kaiser. At last note, he was not able to sell a 52 Virginian.
Yes, it's a dilemma.
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Haha, If I die before my wife, she will kill me. haha, Seriously, that brought up something I am doing. I have a bunch of NOS parts for a few Studebakers ( I'm collecting for my 63 Champ restration ). I just recently took pictures of all the parts, and listed them. My wife , not being a car nut, wouldn't really know what they are or there worth. So, my list includes the parts number ect, so, she can put all the parts on ebay, knowing what they are. I also use the list to know what I have, and what parts I still need, Hopefully nothing will happen to me, but my wife will be able to get a decent price for the parts, plus club members who need the stuff will get a chance to get it. Since I am only 50, I plan on being around for another 50. haha
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I know what you mean. At 55, I've finally come to the realization that I will not finish all the projects that have been started/waiting in the wings. Especially if work keeps getting in the way! Unfortunately, I am quite attached to all the vehicles and am having a VERY hard time determining which ones to keep and which ones to let go down the road. :( And I sure don't want my family to have to worry about getting rid of all the stuff I've collected over 30+ years. Wish I would have listed to the old timer that told me never buy a project, just buy finished cars that you can drive from the get go.
But, if I pare down the Studebaker flock, there might be room for a K-F product! I have this neighbor who has been trying to convince me that I need a K-F so he has company at meets. (Or it might be that he just wants a traveling mechanic.......right Mike? ;D )
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Re: last comment...
I am in the same predicament...I have several cars that need restored but as every day passes, it becomes clearer to me that I will never get them all done. I recently acquired a very early 47 Kaiser and with it came literally everything I need except for paint and labor to restore the car. A complete, ready to install NOS interior, every stick of chrome, all new brakes...the list goes on. The problem is, the car itself is so rough that it will take many hundreds of hours labor to get it done. And, ahead of it are 3 other cars. But, I cannot bear to part with any of them! Compounding that are the folks who write me every day with cars for sale. Some are no better than what I have in the 47K, while others are very nice drivers. Common sense would tell me to sell the cars needing work and buy one or two of the nicer drivers...but again, sell a member of the family...I don't think so!
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I know what you mean. At 55, I've finally come to the realization that I will not finish all the projects that have been started/waiting in the wings. Especially if work keeps getting in the way! Unfortunately, I am quite attached to all the vehicles and am having a VERY hard time determining which ones to keep and which ones to let go down the road. :( And I sure don't want my family to have to worry about getting rid of all the stuff I've collected over 30+ years. Wish I would have listed to the old timer that told me never buy a project, just buy finished cars that you can drive from the get go.
But, if I pare down the Studebaker flock, there might be room for a K-F product! I have this neighbor who has been trying to convince me that I need a K-F so he has company at meets. (Or it might be that he just wants a traveling mechanic.......right Mike? ;D )
Dude...I had no idea you were that old!!! :'( Naw, a "traveling mechanic" might be nice, but my underlying ambition is to improve your image among the old car guys by getting a KF product in your garage!!! You NEED one! Besides, all the great help you've been on my car over the years, you could work on YOUR Kaiser blind-folded!! ;)
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Here's a picture of the Frake Special. From my old notes, the car was built on a 51 HJ chassis. The basic dash and firewall was used but pushed back to where the front seat would normally be. The car was a 2 seater and used Chevrolet, Jaguar and Ford parts...and alot of hand fabrication. It also used a 283 V8 and 3 speed transmission. As I recall, the bodywork was very well done.
Does the Frake Special still exist? Or maybe the question is was it ever seen again after that old photo? I take it there was a Mr. Frake somewhere?
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Speaking of passing on before the better half, I have already told her my 3 buddies will take care of whatever(car related) she needs. Two many pass without having someone to help dispose of our beloved things, Henry.
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Yes, the Frake Special still exists. It was sold at auction a year or two ago somewhere on the east coast. It was listed as a modified Henry J, if memory serves. I don't know where it ended up.
Harold Frake was from central new York and I captured a photo of the car at the KF national in Rochester NY. I think it also appeared at a few regional meets in the area after that. Mr Frake was an elderly gent then so I'm sure he's no longer with us.
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As far as prep for the dirt nap goes, I have plans to go thru my stock of parts, get rid of stuff I no longer need and label the stuff I will keep. At 58, I think I still have time to get this done, but one never knows. With my daily life as busy as it is, I'm not finding the time to do this. Perhaps when I move to another house, which may happen in the next few months, I can clean out a lot of stuff.
On an upbeat note: my 17 year old daughter has sworn that she will get rid of all my other cars but Old Toby will stay in the family no matter what.
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somebody said, they DIED twice, and The second time was ,lookin down from (car) heaven, when he saw his wife sell his things for the prices that he told her what he PAID :o for them....
8)
This ain't like Facebook - can't I just "LIKE" this quote?
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"Like"!!
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I wonder what the membership numbers were in 1975 - 1980 - 1985 etc and also the number of cars owned.
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Hi gang! New K-F forum member here. I've been a long-time Stude enthusiast (since '73) and dabbler in Stude parts as well. Had a few Ramblers over time, but not for the last 20 years now. I've always been intrigued by the KF products and even bought a Dragon out of a Georgia junk yard in the 70s. The Dragon was 100% complete - other than for it's engine, which had been robbed for a generator after the car's elderly owner had sold it to the junkyard. Yard owners told of him driving it to the yard and handing over the keys - no one else had wanted to buy the thing (that was in the late 60s according to the yard guy. As I was laready neck deep in Studes, I did nothing to the Dragon save for finding it a new owner. And sadly - if I remember right - he only wanted it for it's glass. :-\
At 68, I've been trying to find homes for alot of my Stude stuff. I've got a driver Transtar truck and a Lark ragtop as well as 4 project Studes ( and bunches of good used parts) - and not much zip anymore.
BTW, r1Lark and I have known each other for some time thanks to the Stude forums. I probably know some others of you from there as well.
We all have the "sickness", right? As I sit typing this, I'm waiting to hear back as to when I can go look at another project car this week! I wouldn't even think of it except that it's a pretty special edition job and it deserves to be in good hands. Heck, I turned down a FREE Avanti last spring. Came with a bunch of NOS parts too. Crazy? No - I'm like alot of you. I've got a spouse that'll probably survive me and won't have a clue as to what she's left with.
BTW, I wouldn't mind finding a NICE driver K-car at a ridiculous price. I can't afford otherwise, and feel sheepish about asking, but sometimes the right thing is out there and goes wanting only for someone not asking. I used to get to ride an a late style Kaiser on a regular basis in the late 50s, so I do have a bit of a connection in that respect.
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I JUST learned this morning, about a nice (engineless) Silver Hawk that was taken to the metal scrappers place because the owners son wanted some spending money! This along with several good Stude engines. :'(
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Welcome Bob! You will find a number of familiar folks from Studebaker-land here. I haven't gotten a Kaiser or Frazer yet, but the first step is learning about them, right? A good friend got me interested in Kaisers (I give him a hand once and a while on his '54) and I've learned alot here on the K-F forum. I know you will enjoy it here, lots of good folk.
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Everyone, please take note of the operative word in the previous post..."YET!" (YES!!!!!!!) ;) ;)