Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum

General Category => Kaiser Forum => Topic started by: Tom N on October 06, 2012, 05:32:26 PM

Title: Electrical Prob
Post by: Tom N on October 06, 2012, 05:32:26 PM
I'm having a strange problem with my 53 Carolina.  While driving it along it suddenly stalled.  Somehow we lost spark.  Thought it was the coil, so replaced it..nothing.  we had recently installed new plug wires, cap, rotor, condenser, points so don't think there is a problem there.  With further digging we discovered that there doesn't seem to be any power to the coil.  Starter engages and turn signals work, so don't think it's the ignition switch.  Weird problem for sure, any ideas? :( :'(
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: pnw_oldmags on October 06, 2012, 06:22:38 PM
check the wire between the coil and the ignition switch.  Mine had no continuity... replaced ... fixed problem
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Fid on October 06, 2012, 08:09:13 PM
It could still be the ignition switch as the section of the switch that runs the starter is a different set of connectors that powers the coil. I'm not sure the signal lights are connected to the ignition switch but again, there are several terminals on that switch. I agree though, based on the starter turning the ig sw sounds unlikely but it still could be the problem. Otherwise, it sounds like it may be a wire or connection between the ignition switch and the coil. Check for frayed wire ends or a dirty/corroded connectors.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Barnum on October 06, 2012, 08:50:44 PM
Should also be sure the lead wire to the distributor  is not shorted either where it enters ..or inside the distributor
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Tom N on October 07, 2012, 11:58:15 AM
I will try all of your suggestions..Thank you.  It was interesting that after we got the car home and it sat for a couple of days, it started right up, ran pretty bad, then quit and won't start again.
Tom
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: joefrazer on October 07, 2012, 03:13:08 PM
Check your wiring at the coil. With the key on you should have 6V at each terminal on the coil. If you do and there's still a no-start condition, check the small wires inside the distributor. I had one fray and go to ground which caused a problem like you've described.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on October 08, 2012, 05:58:10 AM
I agree on the small wire attached on the distributor plate.  Because of the weak point in that wire (at the screw) it can corrode and break but still look intact.  This happened to me on my 1951 Kaiser Business Coupe.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: boatingbill on October 08, 2012, 01:33:12 PM
This wire in the distributor also shorted out on my '51 Kaiser Deluxe, with the same symptoms
as previously described. It grounded the coil and therefore lost spark at the plugs. It would
come and go due to vibration.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: HJ-ETEX on October 09, 2012, 09:25:24 PM
To amplify a previous comment, if your distributor has a wire lead from the body of the distributor to the points, you should consider replacing that wire with a new wire. It is not hard to fabricate one with 18g wire, suitable ring fittings and a soldering gun. Over the years I have encountered 2 situations where the wire didn't conduct at all.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Tom N on October 10, 2012, 09:23:22 AM
I will check the distributor wires out...Thanks
Tom :D
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: pnw_oldmags on October 10, 2012, 11:41:49 AM
If when you turn the key on and have no power to the coil I think it is the wire between the ignition and the coil.  Still my thought ... how can the little wire in the distributor cause this?
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on October 11, 2012, 06:17:38 AM
The electrical system in the car is a lot like the circuitry in a television set.  If one small connection goes bad it can take the system down or cause problems.  If the small wire is broken in the distributor, the plugs will not fire or will run erratically if the break is able to arc to keep current flowing. 

There is another aspect to this that I hadn't thought of at first.  The first coil I had on my Business Coupe had a problem that was heat-related.  When the coil warmed up, the internal wiring (rather than wires to or from the coil) opened; when the coil cooled down it would work just fine until it warmed up.  Replacing the Coil got rid of the problem.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: boatingbill on October 11, 2012, 09:45:53 PM
If the wire in the distributor goes open there will be no current flow through the points and
therefore no field in the coil and no spark. If the wire shorts to ground the coil is grounded
and again no field and no spark.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Terry T on October 13, 2012, 06:45:25 PM
For proper spark, the coil must be connected correctly---depending on positive or negative ground system.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Tom N on October 15, 2012, 10:41:57 AM
I am going to begin checking out all of your suggestions soon.  I also wonder if the problem could be a bad condenser? Car started right up yesterday (after sitting for 2 days), ran badly then quit again and wouldn't restart.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on October 15, 2012, 12:12:05 PM
Do it the way the professional Pontiac mechanics did when K-F cars were new...follow the suggestions and checks listed, then start replacing parts until it works right.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: boatingbill on October 15, 2012, 09:55:37 PM
A bad condenser would cause the points to burn quickly. That does not sound like the symptoms
you have described. The next time it quits, leave the key on and manually open and close the
points with a non metallic item like a golf tee and see if you see a spark across the points. No
spark means the primary side of the coil circuit has a problem.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Tom N on October 19, 2012, 10:48:34 AM
Thanks again.  I'm having the distributor professionally rebuilt and rewired.  That should cover all of the problems that were suggested as possibilities.  I'll let you know when I get it back on the car. :D
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Carolina Fan on December 20, 2012, 03:57:52 PM
Had new wires put in the distributor, but testing revealed it was all caused by a shorted condensor.  Car now runs like a watch!

Tom
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Terry T on December 20, 2012, 06:47:20 PM
lesson learned

as the old-timers say when solving a problem....KISS....KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID, ie, always look at the simplest item to replace first
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Carolina Fan on January 04, 2013, 11:13:01 AM
thanks to all
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: montefrazer on January 05, 2013, 08:12:38 PM
The condenser is there to protect the points by absorbing electrical spikes as they open and close. If it went bad, your car would run fine until the points fried.  Look at the points when you have the cap off. Even if they are new, a bad condenser can ruin them quickly and cause those problems. Steve
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Fid on January 05, 2013, 08:39:24 PM
A shorted condensor as you describe, would not cause the points to fail. There are two ways electrical components can fail;  they can become open circuited or short circuited. If the condensor open circuits then yes, the points will burn up. If the condensor shorts, which is common with older capacitors (condensors) then the car simply won't start  and the points would still be fine.
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: boatingbill on January 05, 2013, 11:03:41 PM
FID, This is very common. When a electrical component fails, most people say the resistor
shorted, the transistor shorted, the capacitor shorted. They almost never say the component
opened. If a garage repaired the car, the mechanic probably just said the condenser shorted. It
seems people can understand a "short" but not a "open".
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: Carolina Fan on January 06, 2013, 12:06:46 PM
Thanks again.  After re-wiring the distributor, replacing the points and condensor the car now starts and runs very well.
 :D
Title: Re: Electrical Prob
Post by: HJ-ETEX on January 17, 2013, 09:01:28 PM
Condenser: Several years ago I did a tune-up on my Chevy G van. The problem afterwards was that it would start and run for several miles (distance varied from 1 to 15) and then the ignition would completely cut out. After one or several hours, it start again. There is nothing more frustrating than a component with an intermittent failure - it is hard to pin down a bad component if it starts working again.  In this case, it was a bad condenser. This was doubly hard to diagnose since 1) this was a Delco points type distributor and separate points & condenser are not available or ridiculously expensive, and 2) the distributor can only be serviced after removing the engine box.
The Lesson: Mechanics routinely replaced the points, rotor and condenser because they were relatively cheap and wear or defects especially may not be apparent on the rotor or condenser.