Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: serialnumberplate on March 14, 2009, 12:25:47 PM
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Hello,
I collect serial number plates (www.serialnumberplate.com). I wanted to ask for:
1. Help to decode the numbers on these plates (paint, trim, options etc).
2. Can somebody tell what means the "CAT. 216" stamping on Allstate plate? Does it have any relation to serial number?
I hope this information will be helpful to K-F enthusiasts.
Kaiser: http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_id&id=2792
Frazer: http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_id&id=2788
Henry J: http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_id&id=2789
Allstate: http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_id&id=2803
Thank you.
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On the Henry J tag, Model K513 indicates it is a standard (4 cylinder) model. The '4' under "Body" indicates it's a two-door (as all Henry Js were). Paint code 110 indicates the color is 'Cardinal' which was a deep maroon. The trim code of 3401-1 indicates the upholstery is 'Armor-weave gray.' The number '1' under DR (believed to stand for 'Delivery Region') means the car was shipped to a US dealer. The '4' under "TR" indicates it has an overdrive transmission (a '2' would mean it was standard transmission without overdrive, automatic trans was never an option on the Henry J). Since there is no number under the "AG" section, that means the car, as many four cylinder 1951 Henry Js, was not fitted with an "Accessory Group." This means the Henry J would not have a trunk lid, horn ring, dual horns (under the hood), cigar lighter, full wheel covers, or bumper gaurds. All deluxe Henry Js were fitted with an Accessory Group and many four cylinder models were too but this one wasn't. The numbers under "Sched" and "Item" refer to the schedule (date of manufacture) and item number on the line that day. I don't know how to decifer the Sched and Item number but hopefully someone will come on here and provide a further explanation. It would've looked just like this one -
(http://home.comcast.net/~ljfid/fids_hj_photos/513z.jpg)
Regarding the Allstate tag, model 340 indicates it is a 1953, deluxe (6 cylinder) model. The body 4 indicates two-door sedan, paint 208 is 'Anchor Gray' and Trim Code 5620-A was unknown at the time the KFOC handbook was put together. 'I.P.' indicates "Interior Paint" and 32 indicates Persian Gray (as most '53 Henry Js and Allstates were). 'DR' again means US, 'TR' 4 indicates overdrive transmission. 'AG' 45 means the car was fitted with Accessory Group 45 which is still unknown but it likely meant it had a trunk lid, full wheel covers, cigar lighter, horn ring, vacuum boosted wipers and likely more options. No information regarding 'CAT. NO 216' but I'd hazard a guess that since it was sold as a Sears product, it may refer to the 'Catalog item number', the number the car was listed as in the Sears catalog. I've also heard conflicting reports that the car was available through the Sears catalog and other reports that it wasn't. Perhaps someone else can shed more light on that.
The Kaiser tag, model 531 indicates 1953 Deluxe (the Deluxe was actually the low-end Kaiser in 1953, one step below a Manhattan, two steps below a Dragon). Body '1' means it was a 4 door sedan, paint 395 is 'Tropical Green Metallic' and trim '5002-A' is 'Chukkar Tan Stockholm & Burma Vinyl'. 'I.P' is interior paint, can't find what 34 indicates as far as color. 'DR' is US delivery and the 'TR' (transmission code) 6 means it was a three speed manual with overdrive (Kaiser used different TR codes than Henry J). The '31' under 'AG' indicates Accessory Group '31' so the car was originally fitted with a horn ring, narrow chrome moulding around the bottom, signal lights (which were still not standard on cars in 1953) and an oil-bath air cleaner.
The Frazer tag, model 495 indicates 1949 Frazer standard (the fancy one was a 496 Manhattan). Body '1' means it was a 4 door sedan, paint 155 is 'Dubonnet' which I think was a blue but I'm not sure. Trim '516' is 'Dubonnet stadium tweed and Bedford' (again, I believe it meant a dark blue). 'DR' is 1 or US delivery and the 'TR' (transmission code) 1 means it was a three speed manual without overdrive (Frazer used different TR codes than Henry J), which really surprises me as I thought overdrive was standard on all Frazers. The '5' above 'AG' indicates Accessory Group '5' which for some reason, was kept confidential by KF.
Hope this helps - Good luck.
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Regarding the Allstate tag, model 340 indicates it is a 1953, deluxe (6 cylinder) model...
...No information regarding 'CAT. NO 216' but I'd hazard a guess that since it was sold as a Sears product, it may refer to the 'Catalog item number', the number the car was listed as in the Sears catalog.
Thank you for such complete decoding.
I agree with the opinion about the "catalog number", the question appeared because this stamping is located where the "BODY NUMBER" on Frazers and Henry Js plates usually is.
I just may add some info from the 4th edition of Standard Catalog of American Cars (1997).
The 1953 six-cylinder Allstate is listed as "Model Number A340, Body/Style Number 215".
Since this catalog is full of mistakes, it's very likely that the model number was 216 instead of 215, or it was a modification.
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Starting in 1951, Kaisers and Henry Js had a seperate body tag in addition to the data and serial (VIN) tags. The serial tag with the VIN which is between the door hinges, the data tag, which is what you posted, and then a body tag which is a small tag just behind the data tag (looking from the front). I snapped this photo of a Henry J data plate and body tag in a salvage yard a few years ago. You can see the small body tag, behind the data tag in the photo.
(http://home.comcast.net/~ljfid/DCP01380.JPG). The body tag contains the body number and begins with the model number, in this case, K5144 (1951 Henry J deluxe). One thing that's kind of cool about that is on some of the 1951 cars that were reserialed as 1952s (Henry J Vagabonds and Kaiser Virginians) they may have a K51x on the body tag but a K52x on the other two tags. I have a '52 Henry J Vagabond that's like that. It has '52 model numbers on the serial and data tags but a '51 model number on the body tag.
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Starting in 1951, Kaisers and Henry Js had a seperate body tag in addition to the data and serial (VIN) tags. The serial tag with the VIN which is between the door hinges...
Thank you for the photo.
I have never seen the door post tag. Can you post it's photo or the picture of the tag location?
One thing that's kind of cool about that is on some of the 1951 cars that were reserialed as 1952s (Henry J Vagabonds and Kaiser Virginians) they may have a K51x on the body tag but a K52x on the other two tags. I have a '52 Henry J Vagabond that's like that. It has '52 model numbers on the serial and data tags but a '51 model number on the body tag.
I've read that they were sending the plates from the factory to dealers, who had to replace them manually. Imagine how many mistakes were made! :)
As for Allstate, I am willing to see more plates with CAT NO, maybe some owners can post a photo?
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Here's the door tag off that same Henry J from Windy Hill Auto (now long gone). It was difficult to photograph but you'll notice that the body number and serial number are close together.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6cf04b3127cceede760dcc86300000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520161126023544321.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
There was a guy who used to work for KF and he attended a KF Club Meet I hosted here in 2005. He explained how he went around to all the dealers and they waited till everyone went home, pulled the '51s into the shop, blacked out all the windows of shop, locked the doors and installed Continental spare tires, black plastic hood ornaments, Vagabond/Virginian scripts and changed the tags to make the cars '52s. Some of these guys may have been a bit lazy as I own a '52 Henry J Vagabond that did not get the Continental spare. The fact that the rear stone shield is spot welded to the body is evidence it was never changed. I found this out last summer when I was contemplating intalling a Continental kit. If the sheilds are welded on, then they were never removed for the spare tires so mine never got one. It does have a K513 body number and a K523 serial number and the black plastic and 'Vagabond' scripting but the guy must've said "hell with it" when it came time to install the tire! They must've figured up in Bemidji, MN, no one would ever know!
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That is a great story! It makes sense too as the cars could not be recalled to the factory for all of that work although the factory probably did the same thing on the last '51 cars before they got sent to dealers or distributors.
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Here's the door tag off that same Henry J...
Thank you for the photo again and, of course, for the story.
I have found another Allstate plate on the internet: http://www.henryjcars.com/hjc49/eden/eden.html
Neither CAT NO nor BODY NUMBER at all.
P.S. Sorry, I can't upload images for some reason.
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Long ago I wanted to ask experts about two interesting plates.
One is Kaiser Traveller, other is Henry J.
I wonder if the Kaiser is fake. What are the codes' breakdown?
Text - http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Kaiser/
Plate image - http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Kaiser/1954KaiserTraveler-a.jpg
The Henry J convertible is fake, no doubt. What was the original car?
Text - http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/HenryJ/
Plate image - http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/HenryJ/HenryJ-NamePlate.jpg
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The Kaiser tag appears to be authentic to me. It is model K532 which is a 1953 Kaiser Manhattan. Body 5 indicates it is a hatchback, trim 888 is factory special, IP (interior paint) is 34 which I believe is metallic gray but I'm not certain on that one. DR is US delivery, TR = 7 means Hydramatic, AG 32 means it was fitted with Accessory Group 32 - Bumper bridge bullets, full wheel covers, tail pipe extension, tenite plastic steering wheel, electric wipers and clock. The 0 above one of the "M" headings likely indicates what modifications were made. The SO - K1439 , indicates it was a "Special Order" number 1439.
The Henry J tag is authentic and indicates nothing out of the ordinary. K513, 1951 Henry J standard (four cylinder), Body 4 two door , paint 370 is mariner gray, trim code 3457 - caribbean plaid (I have one like that), DR 1 is US delivery, TR 4 is overdrive transmission, AG 17 is Accessory Group 17 which includes a trunk lid (for those who think only Deluxe model Henry Js had trunk lids here is more proof that is not true), vacuum boosted fuel pump, opening vent windows, fold down rear seat. If the car that this tag is on was a convertible, it was not done at the factory. There were some dealers that converted some Henry Js to convertibles but since they were dealers, the tags probably did not change.
We've got Edgar Kaiser's custom built Henry J here and it has paint code 888 (factory special), trim code 999 (factory special), and SPEC FO (special factory order) number HJ 50.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3da02b3127ccef2ba7a902d3a00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520130424033034117.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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After I checked your pics I realized this was the car that Jack Mueller had written about in the club bulletin. I recognized a lot of your pics ;)
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The Henry J tag is authentic...
Thanks for the decoding.
About Henry J tag: they did not have body numbers stamped on the large plate.
Even if they had, the body number "1" should be much closer to the BODY NUMBER stamping.
And, the third thing, the whole lower part of the plate is remade or combined with other tag.
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Aha, it was late, what can I say?! Yes, it looks like that bottom piece may have been overlaid. The rest makes sense, I never looked at the bottom. Cool.
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I have some more Kaiser serial number plates - http://serialnumberplate.com/index.php?type=show_as&as_type=make&value=KAISER
Need help identifying following codes:
PAINT: 5030, 5302, 5303, 5308, 5313, 5321, 5322
TRIM: 097, 107, 227, 439, 442, 443, 462, 463
TR: 7 trim code
AG: 00, 32 accessory groups
IP: 29, 37 interior paints
And what do the fields RD and HR mean?
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In the last post, the numbers for the trim and paint look to be swapped.
Paint:
097 - Startdust Ivory
107 - Maroon Velvet metallic
227 - Island Green metallic
439 - Stardust Ivory/Pea****** Blue
442 - Jade Green metallic/Stardust Ivory
443 - Pea****** Blue/Stardust Ivory
462 - Signal Green metallic/Jade Tint
463 - Island Green metallic/Palm Beach Ivory
Trim:
5030 - Australian Beige Stockholm and Vinyl (used on the 54 Late Specials)
5302 - Pea****** Blue Luxura and Bleached Bambu Vinyl
5303 - Jade Green Luxura and Bleached Bambu Vinyl
5308 - Black on Beige Laguna and Bleached Bambu Vinyl
5313 - Maroon and Beige Laguna & Maroon Bambu/Bleached Topping (used on the 53 Dragon)
5321 - Ivory Boucle Vinyl and Green La Mar
5322 - Ivory Boucle Vinyl and Copperdust La Mar
TR (transmission):
7 - automatic
AG (accessory group):
00 - (probably 100) - standard group for the Dragon. Quite an extensive list but includes stuff like tinted glass, automatic transmission, 7.10x15 tires, radio, antenna, windshield washer, Calpoint custom carpet, gold plated script, handles, ornaments, bambu upholstered package tray, rear seat speaker, and more.
32 - Bumper bridge chrome caps, wheel covers, exhaust deflector, tenite plastic steering wheel, electric wipers, clock. (listed for $113.50) Standard on 53 Manhattans and 54 Early Specials
RD = Is actually DR and at one time, it was thought to mean Delivery Region, but we're not so sure today.
HR = Again, this one is a mystery...maybe denotes factory installed heater.
KF trim tags were copied from concurrent Chrysler units because one of their engineers came to KF at startup and brought along the idea. I think some of the codes on KF trim tags were set up to be used, but never had anything stamped in that column.
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In the last post, the numbers for the trim and paint look to be swapped.
Thank you for the response. The numbers are written in ascending order.
AG (accessory group):
00 - (probably 100)
The plate shows 00 stamped, not 100 - http://serialnumberplate.com/data/img_plate/3120.jpg
RD = Is actually DR and at one time, it was thought to mean Delivery Region, but we're not so sure today.
Not DR, but RD - as it stamped on the plate - http://serialnumberplate.com/data/img_plate/3119.jpg
Again, thank you for help!
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In this case, the 00 is the same as 100. Each slot was allotted 2 characters and so the '1' wouldn't fit. And, the RD is DR...if you're referring to the slot just to the right of 'I.P.'.
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In this case, the 00 is the same as 100. Each slot was allotted 2 characters and so the '1' wouldn't fit. And, the RD is DR...if you're referring to the slot just to the right of 'I.P.'.
Not DR, but RD that goes after TR field.
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Hey...there is an RD there. That's another of the unknowns.
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Jack Mueller has a discussion on these codes on pp 184-185 of his book. He states that RD is for radio (1947-48) or rear wiper (1951 up). He also indicates that no numbers are ever found on most of these codes.
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Thanks!
What is the meaning of SCHED and ITEM NO? Does it have any relation to production sequence number (like another kind of serial number)?
Are there any resources (maybe updated) on 1953-1954 Kaiser production data? I have used the Standard catalog of American cars 1946-1975 (Krause) but I think there were too many mistakes.
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The SCHED and ITEM NO slots were used to denote when, in a particular batch of cars, that particular one was built. A schedule was put together to build a particular type of car...2 door...4 door...blue...green...whatever. Then, once the schedule was ready, the number of cars to be built was determined...that's the item number. I forget the actual allotment, but for each schedule, a certain number of cars were constructed. Each schedule might take more than one day to complete, but generally, the item numbers were in the few hundred range. So, the lower the item number, the earlier in the schedule it was built.
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Hi,
The "CAT 216" refers to Sears catalog type 216 Allstate. That is a 6 cylinder Deluxe with overdrive. Pricing started at $1,876 FOB Willow Run. Sears Employees got a 10% discount on new Allstates purchased.
State and local taxes, transportation, license & title fee, plus accessory items (heater, radio, etc) were also extra costs.
Jack mueller
Club Historian
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Hi again...
SCHED for cars built at Willow Run generally reflected a day's scheduled production ON THE BODY LINE. The ITEM slot was the position during the schedule...the lower the number, the earlier on the particular day the body started down the fabrication line. Numbers can run in excess of 1000 for ITEM (very late 1947, first work days of 1948).
SCHED #1 for Willow Run cars reflects the first day of the model year with a few exceptions:
1947 model year - approx. August 10, 1946
1948 model year - December 1, 1947
1949-50 model year - approx. August 28 1948
1951 model year - March 15, 1950
1952 model year - November 5, 1951 (somewhat a guess; have a letter from the factory that November 4 1951 was last day of 1951 model year)
1953 model year - approx. August 20, 1952
1954 model year - Oct. 21, 1953 (trade magazine reported start of production that date of 1954 Henry J automobiles at Willow Run; a handful of 1954 Kaisers were also produced during calendar 1953 at Willow Run.
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All,
Is there a book that can be purchased that gives all the decode information for the tags?
Thanks,
John
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The Henry J tag picture is most interesting...the one with the SPEC-FO of HJ-50. Can anyone with this car send a photo of the exterior and interior? It is a special order automobile that has non-factory paint (or at least not for a Henry J) and interior (again, not HJ fabrics, etc).
Thanks,
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
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I have a 53 Corsair..... can I give the codes for a breakdown?
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Jack, I had not seen your post from 2009. Had there not been a recent post on this, I would not have seen this so 4 years later I will reply. The tag I posted with the SPEC-FO of HJ-50 and non-standard Paint and Trim is the car that was built for Edgar Kaiser. It's my icon next to my name. Interior is pleated black vinyl, and all black windlace and headliner. Even has a black steering wheel.
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3da02b3127ccef2ba91f2ec8500000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520130424033034476.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3da02b3127ccef2ba43726d5c00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520130424033037445.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3da02b3127ccef2ba23cc6dd200000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520130424033031524.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3da02b3127ccef2ba5a47accd00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520130424033029977.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3da02b3127ccef2ba6b166d2c00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520130424033031505.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Several things
For those interested the 2009 postings were put up before members got their copies of KFOCI HANDBOOK Version 4.0. There is info on that CD that covers many of the questions/concerns in the various postings.
Version 5.0 of the handbook will have more info on additional items brought up here.
Non-members with cars are encouraged to join the club. It's a great source of parts and technical support for the vehicles you have.
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I got my car,,, :)
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just a few comments come to mind about Allstate, after WW2 my Dad and I went to the Giant Sears wearhouse/ store on 16th and Homan ave in Chicago. while waiting for our order to come down, I saw a Henry J, now rebadged as an Allstate on the floor there, dont know what yr this was.
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aeroj, Post the codes or pictures of your tags and we can decipher them for you.
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I found a site where I could break the I,d plate down thanks..
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Is there another place to find the links to serial numbers that currently works ? Thanks
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Kaiser announced when the 1952 Henry J cars came out that Continental Kits would be included as factory equipment on the new cars but quickly changed their minds and made the Continental kits an extra cost accessory.
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Mark,
When you joined the KFOCI (not the Forum) did you recieve a CD marked KFOCI HANDBOOK. There arfe hundreds of .pdf files on it including how to decode your Body Information Tag (the larger tag on the firewll area) and the significance of the body number tag (smaller tag on the firewall area). There is also producton information on it that can tell you what month your car was built bsed on car serial number.
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I didn't get a CD back then -- I did get this large shop manual with all the car info in the back section --- I assume I bough it from someone , just can't recall who ?
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If you can post all the numbers and headers by these numbers (off the Body information tag) and a translation should follow shortly after.
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Here’s my info
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Here’s the rest
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Damm apple phone -- everything looks right side up when I send them ---- sorry
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Mark,
When you joined the KFOCI (not the Forum) did you recieve a CD marked KFOCI HANDBOOK. There arfe hundreds of .pdf files on it including how to decode your Body Information Tag (the larger tag on the firewll area) and the significance of the body number tag (smaller tag on the firewall area). There is also producton information on it that can tell you what month your car was built bsed on car serial number.
who can I contact to purchase one of these CD 's ?
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Trim tag breakdown
Body 4 = two door sedan
Paint 310 = Claypipe Gray
Trim 4812 = (not shown on my list, probably unique to Sears/Allstate)
IP (Interior Paint) 16 = Willow Gray
DR (Delivery Region) 1 = US
TR (transmission) 2 = three speed
SCHED (Schedule) = production schedule
ITEM (item number) = sequential item number on the production schedule
A handy reference to quite a bit of information is the book 'Last Onslaught on Detroit' by Richard Langworth. Copies usually pop up for sale on places like eBay and Amazon.
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Thank you Joe !
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The CD's started going out in 2009 because it was costing too much to print the Handbook, especially as more information became available to put in it. Version 7.0 has been ready for release for some time now and would go out to existing members as an issue of the QUARTERLY club magazine. Problem is cost vs. available money. The item costs almost double to be run off in the Seattle/Tacoma area than it does in Cleveland Ohio where it used to be done. The other question is with regard to flash drive vs. CD now that more and more new computers were designed without them so they could be made smaller. I have been quoted around $5.00 each for 1500 (1 for each regular or holdover Life Member plus about 4-5 years of extras for new members when they join).
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who can I contact to purchase one of these CD 's ?
Please send an email to Secretary@kfclub.com with your full name & member #
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E mail sent and thank you