Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Kaiser Forum => Topic started by: Orphanauto on April 04, 2009, 07:15:12 AM
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I just recieved my new 53 kaiser Manhattan, ok, new to me, haha, anyway, It sat for 15 years, the brakes are not very good. A shop bleed them before I got it, but when I push down on the brake pedal, it seems it just slows the car down, and it's hard to press on. I've had alot of 40's-50's cars, so I know they are not like today brakes. My question is, I would like to replace the mastercylinder and wheel cylinders with new ( I prefer new to rebuilt because of the age). Can anyone tell me the part numbers to ask for, or a place that sells them? Thanks....
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A lot of the parts you can get from your local Napa or most other part stores. We got our brake shoes and rebuild kits from them.
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I am currrently rebuilding the brakes on my '53 Dragon. I ordered a complete overhaul kit including wheel and master cylinder rebuild kits, shoes and hoses from Kanter. http://www.kanter.com///productdetail.aspx?Tg=554157&Mak=Kaiser-Frazer&Yr=53&Dv=1&Dpt=1100&Sb=0&Vdr=&Itm=&MDv=1&MDpt=0&MSb=0&Cat=7&Prc=36
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cross reference from kaiserbill: http://kaiserbill.com/Parts-Cross-Reference/Parts-Cross-Reference.pdf
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Thank-you so much for all the info guys, that was so helpful. one more question, I drove the car today for the 1st time, when I hit apply the brakes, I have to press hard, and then it slows down, stops slowly ( I am use to old cars, so I know they are not like today, but these are not that good. I'm thinking bad mastercylinder, anyway, the questiion is, It pulls to the right when I step on the brakes, any ideas? shoe out of adjustment, or perhaps bad hose, or wheel cylinder? thanks...
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Your brake hoses are probably bad, I have had several Kaisers that due to age the rubber inside of the hose turns into a kind of check valve not allowing even preasure causing the brake to lock up. Any good hydraulic shop can fabricate new brake hoses for you. I had my wheel and master cylinders resleaved and rebuilt by a company in Virginia called Whitepost Restorations, they garantee the work for as long as you own the car. DO NOT use silicone based brake fluid it will eat every piece of rubber in your cylinders causing them to leak and fail. DOT 3 is the perferd brake fluid.
Fabian
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After sitting for 15 years, I think the aluminum pistons in the brake cylinders have corroded from moisture in the brake fluid and fused to the cylinder walls. This causes poor braking and pulling to the side where a wheel cylinder still works. If you have good pedal pressure and the car rolls freely in neutral, the master and hoses are good. Replacing everything is a good idea. You will know everything is good then.
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I had to replace the flex lines on my '65 Porsche 911 because one of them actually starting dragging a wheel. As it turned out, a hose had deteriorated in the interior so much that it wouldn't allow the fluid to return after the pedal was applied. It struck me as very weird as I would have thought just the reverse might have happened if it was badly deteriorated.
Jerry Weiland
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thanks for the post, please keep them coming. When I hit the brakes hard, it pulls to the right, then stops pulling when I let up. I went to the local oreilly's and tried the Wagner part numbers in the 3rd post, most didn't work anymore. I think I will replace most parts. Does anyone have any part numbers they have used recently that have worked?
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After you replace your shoes and cylinders your brakes should be fine but they will never be like power brakes.
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Thank-you so much for all the info guys, that was so helpful. one more question, I drove the car today for the 1st time, when I hit apply the brakes, I have to press hard, and then it slows down, stops slowly ( I am use to old cars, so I know they are not like today, but these are not that good. I'm thinking bad mastercylinder, anyway, the questiion is, It pulls to the right when I step on the brakes, any ideas? shoe out of adjustment, or perhaps bad hose, or wheel cylinder? thanks...
FWIW, I've got the same thing on my '54 Manhattan. When I bought it 3 years ago, it sailed through the mechanical inspection. The garage pulled all four wheels and found NEW shoes, wheel cylinders, Master cylinder, all the rubber connecting hoses and one replaced steel line. (The underside of the car is literally rust free. It came from an estate sale where the car had been garaged and maintained with 20 other collector cars for something like 25 years. It looks as if the car had been oiled on a regular basis.)
The drums were all clean as well. Good machining. Yet the car is VERY hard to stop.
Is it possible someone had the shoes relined and whoever did it used too hard a brake material for the shoes???
I ask because I ran into this a few years back with aftermarket pads on a VW Jetta. I could lift myself off the seat pushing the brake pedal and not lock up the brakes on the highway. And these were power disks on a light car. I put up with them for six months and then bought a set of factory pads from the VW dealer. ONLY changed the pads. Rotors and claipers were untouched. Damn near put myself through the windshield the first time I punched the brakes on a test drive.
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Chances are, the lining material is too hard for the drum surface. The original asbestos type linings were soft and gave alot of bite...but not alot of life. They also tended to fade under repeated hard stops. So, a harder material was developed and that's what's used today. AutoZone now carries KF brake shoes...you can order a set under part number 173. I just got a set and they seem softer than NAPA's blend.
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Went to the autozone site. If I pick the make and model of car I only get wheel cylinder kits.
If I put in part number 173, I get several pictures of different items. It shows front and rear shoes. BUT, whether I select the pic of the front OR rear shoes, I only get the front shoes showing up. (At $17.00!!!!) ;D
Is there a different number for the rear shoes?
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Front and rear take the same shoes. I don't know about the autozone numbers but RS53 was the napa number bdfore computers took over the world.
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Thanks guys! For $35 and a saturdays work it may get me some decent braking power.
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The real reason asbestos based lining was taken off market was the health hazard from the airborne asbestos particles. And most of the replacement stuff is too hard for non-power brake cars like our old K and F. We put new shoes on one of my cars and after nearly 10,000 miles they showed practically no wear and a lot of effort was required to brake car. MY other cars with older linings stopped with much less braking effort.
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For what it's worth, I just noticed that rockauto also carries shoes for the 54 manhattan. (And others too.)
They offer Wagner p/n PAB53 Thermoquiet bonded, and Raybestos P/N 53PG.
Not sure which would be the "softer" of the two but the cross reference shows they fit several other vehicles but none newer than 1963. So they MIGHT be designed with the idea that power brakes were NOT a normal part of vehicles back then. About $35 a set. No core charge. So more expensive than Autozone but might be softer material. I'm going to check my local parts place and see if they can give an opinion.
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That's so interesting that you saw the brake shows on the Rockauto website, I was looking at the shoes, and rebuild kits yesterday too. I was also wondering if there was a difference in the material since the price was different that autozone. I REALLY need to get the brakes done on my 53 Manhattan. Although I am not sure of everything I need, I hate to spend more than I need to, yet, I will spend more to be able to safely stop. So, even though I may not need to rebuild the wheel cylinders, I'm going to since it sit for 15-2o years, as well as the mastercylinder, and replace the hoses. I would like to know about those shoes so I know what is best to buy. Thanks...
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I'm in Canada so the shipping charges from RockAuto are a bit steep for me.
I checked a local supplier I deal with at work (General Auto Parts) because I know they carry Wagner brakes. He didn't have the PAB53's in stock at the store but he does have a pair in the warehouse and could have had them for me by tomorrow morning.
I asked him about braking power and his feeling is that the thermoquiets ARE a "softer" shoe and would have better stopping power than some of the really hard stuff the reliners use. (The ones on my 54 are riveted.) He also confirmed that his "book" says the same shoes are used on the rear. It was apparently common back then.
I may give the Wagners a try. Can't be any worse than what I've got right now. If I had to do a panic stop I doubt I could do it with the present shoes.
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Results are in on the Wagner Thermoquiet shoes. I just finished putting a set on the front of my 54 Manhattan.
While I can't claim tire screeching stops with them (so far) they certainly haul the beast down from highway speed in a hurry! Enough of a hurry that I was using the steering wheel to brace myself and my son fired his hands up to the dash for support.
I suspect at lower speeds and with enough pressure on the pedal, that I might be able to lock the front brakes.
The difference is like night and day with the old shoes I took off. My drums were still nice and smooth when I pulled them so I had my son scuff the surface up with some 100 grit emery cloth to de-glaze them while I put the shoes on. The "ingredient" list on the Thermoquiets shows a high ceramic content. Although they don't market them as a ceramic shoe.
The Wagners are a definite "Thumbs Up" from me.
Interesting observation: The Wagner shoes have a primary part number of PAB53. There is a second number "WEB53" on the box as well. Wagner pads and shoes are distributed by Federal Mogul Corporation. While I was looking the new shoes over, I noticed that the metal of the shoes were all stamped (indented metal stamp) with the phrase "FMC-173".
I find this interesting because earlier in the thread, joefrazer pointed out that the shoes they carry at AutoZone are part number "173".
I don't believe this to be a coincidence. Although "173" might just be the steel shoe frame and from there the shoes vary by whatever company puts their own friction material on them.
Hope this info is useful to some of you.
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Thanks for your experience. I too have the harder brake shoes that require alot of effort to stop the car. They are not safe. I plan to replace my shoes at the next opportunity with the ones you have tried. Thanks.
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I just put in new wheel cylinders and had a brake shop turn drums and reline. I've only done the front so far, so I haven't been able to road test it yet. Since I've been keeping up with this conversation I asked the guys at the shop if their material was "hard." They said that it was not as hard as some and that I shouldn't have any problems with it. Also, they said that an important factor, especially when turning drums, is matching the lingin to the drums so you have total contact. I'll let you know how it brakes once I get the back wheels done.
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Some of you may have heard this story before. Hal Nauman & I did a brake job on Robby Markman's 54 Kaiser. This included new linings which were black (I believe they used polyamide - Kevlar - as the base material). I was unsatisfied with the performance. At a slow speed on concrete, you should be able to lock up the brakes by jamming hard on the brake pedal. Couldn't do it with these linings, so we searched through about 32 used shoes to match up sets for the front and rear. BTW, 53 is a rebuilder's code and the prefix indicates the type of lining. At one time B (as in B53) was an economy (i.e. cheap) lining that was soft while R (as in R53) was a more durable lining. The 53 lining was also used on Stude trucks and 60-62 4WD Chevy trucks. The 177 shoe used on the rear of disc brake Studebakers is the same but the length of the lining is different.
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In my case, PAB53 is just the Wagner part number. Most of their shoes start with "PAB" followed by a number. Two or three digits.
These were not an "economy" shoe from what I can see. $56 Cdn. for one set of four. They range from $36-$44 US at the online places I checked. (Which sounds about right converted to Canadian dollars and online prices usually being a bit cheaper.)
The Raybestos is an "R53" for their "standard" shoe which was cheaper than the Wagner's and "R53P" I believe for what they call their "Professional" grade shoes. The guy at the parts place said the pro shoes are designed to last forever and are therefore extremely hard. He wouldn't sell me a set. Not after I told him the trouble I've been having.
I did find a lot of cheaper shoes online in the US but if you look closely, most of them are "rebuilt" and there is a core charge. The Wagners and Raybestos are brand new.
If you call a place and they don't list vehicles back into the 50's, they are the exact same shoes as the front ones on a 1963 Chevy K10 Pickup truck, with the 283 V8.