Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Cars For Sale & Wanted => Topic started by: Evan Crowell on May 17, 2013, 09:47:19 AM
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http://detroit.en.craigslist.org/okl/cto/3761579976.html
Found the ad on craigslist. the seller claims it is the last Us produced Kaiser. I don't know if he is correct but it might be worth a little research.
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Neptune96
This car is well known to the Kaiser crowd and had been (may still be) advertised in club publications for years. It's authenticity has been debated but I believe it is generally felt that the story is correct and this would be the last or one of the last cars off the assembly line. Toledo correct?
It's also a poster child car for what ails (sp) this club. If this were the 'last of' another make, someone would have purchased it long ago. For instance, the last Hemi 'Cuda made, even if a pile of rust and incomplete junk, would probably sell for $100,000 to some hemi geekazoid who had to have it.
KFOCI members have let this car stay where it's at, and other notable significant cars, with seemingly no interest in it's preservation or restoration or purchase.
Every club has a few deep pockets, with most of us living vicariously through the National meets and viewing the cars the deep pockets guys buy. (Think: Darrins and 51 Frazer convertibles)
The commonality between many KF cars was what allowed the club to prosper and be stabile for years. It's also creates a downfall for collecting the few unique cars the manufacturer made. Ergo this car. It's probably a Manhattan, and would have historical significance but is not any different then a nicely equipped 54 Manhattan or Special. Therefore, one would be buying the "provenance" of owning the last Kaiser. As the current owner has found out- who cares? Outside of a curiosity, the answer is no one.
And, it appears the seller won't budge. The price has not been market corrected. He has had it for sale for years and apparently is in no hurry to sell it. We know from experience, there is no buyer for this car at $10,000. No buyer. The interesting question is, to me, where is the buyer of this car at? $8,000? $5,000? That's the question to be answered several years from now when the estate auctions this car off.
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This is an interesting car and the guy may have that much money in it with all of the body work done and lots of nos parts and rebuilt engine but it still does not justify his asking price. Is it really the last Kaiser off the line since they continued building them in Argentina until 1962? You are looking at least another $10,000 to finish the restoration and then would it be worth $20,000? Maybe.
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Gordie
Interesting comments. The Argentina Carabellas would technically be a different case in my opinion. Last cars made in Toledo - to me - would be fun to own and preserve.
A similar case. I always wanted a 56 Packard, especially a Patrician (4 door) or 400 (2 door hardtop). Having read Packard books on the last days, senior workers were crying, taking artifacts as mementos, and realizing the cars they were finishing would be the last cars of the company.
I can imagine a similar scenario at Studebaker and Kaiser.
As to value, this seller is entitled to try for infinity to get his $10,000 out but the value of the car is much less. It would never be a $20,000 car. Only Darrins are worth crazy money. I have seen some nice Dragons go for high teens and a few Manhattans. I always wonder who is buying those nice cars.
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This would be a nice car restored, yes, but $10,000 is too high. I, personally, would not pay for provenance...any other '54 or '55 Kaiser in the same condition would be of the same value to my way of thinking. Similarly, I don't understand people paying more for cars celebrities owned, but I know they do draw more money (think Clark Gable's Duesenberg for example). It seems to me that one of the merits of this club is that it is composed of sensible members who are not willing to pay exorbitant prices merely for historical significance. Build me a "new" Kaiser or Frazer to exact factory specs and I would be more than happy to buy that car. This will not happen for KF, but you could probably almost buy all the parts to build a '57 Chevy.
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The Huckers have had that car for sale for quite a while. I don't think there's a lot of value added based on historical significance of KF cars.
I ask myself "If I had $20,000 to invest in another classic car right now would that be the one?" My answer is "no" and it's pretty typical. People such as myself that are hitting mid-life and want to invest or just spend money on a classic car are not thinking about KF. I think at that price that car will probably end up in someone's will or at an estate sale.
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Logan and Fid you are both correct.
As to celebrity ownership, 99% of them I would not care. But I went to Hershey in 2010, and there was a 1940 Buick there owned by Cary Grant, who is my favorite classic era actor. (I own several of his movies on DVD) To sit in a car in the driver seat owned by him would be significant (to me).
This car (last Kaiser) is one where I go back and forth on whether I would want it. I am 49, and probably not going into KF collecting again but if I did and sold everything my KF wish list within reason would be:
1948 Frazer Manhattan
1949 Frazer Manhattan
1949-50 Vagabond or Traveller
1949-50 Virginian
1953 nice Manhattan or Dragon
I don't really like the 54-55 restyle but for completion of a neat collection, I would want one. I would take that $1250 one in Washington in red/cream.
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There are a couple of other members that also claim to have the last Kaiser. Unless it is definitely the last Kaiser, it would not have anywhere near that value.
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Chuck had two 55 Kaisers...the advertised car and another. Both were cobbled together from parts left over once the "real" passenger car assembly process stopped in Toledo. They are the last cars produced and I think the one he's selling is the latest of the two he had. There's also another 55 located in Ohio that is billed as the last Kaiser. It was the last off the production line...built prior to the assembly of the cars shipped to Argentina and those kept here for executive and testing use.
My father went to Toledo Jeep in 1964 and looked over several cars the company was selling. He said all were tired and well worn so he passed on the opportunity to buy one. Chances are, one of those cars he looked at could have been the car for sale on craigslist. Who knows!
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That's interesting information about how Chuck has come to the claim. If the last few domestic Kaisers were 'assembled; cars then without definitive documentation then it's a non issue, more of a curiosity then anything.
I have never heard of a similar discussion regarding Packard. I think there were many more 56 Packards made and of course Packard technically continued production as "Packardbakers" but that's not the same.
It would be great if Chuck could come on the forum and add comment to this discussion. I'm not sure I could run an ad for years like he has without lowering the price or giving up.
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There are 3 "Last Kaisers Built" depending on when you feel the Last Kaiser was built and where:
- Last 1955 Kaiser built at Toledo for domestic sale (end of first run).
- Last 1955 Kaiser built at Toledo for Argentine sale (end of the second run).
- Last 1955 Kaiser Built at Toledo for company pool car use (factory documented, built during calendar 1957 from spare parts).
There are also the overseas built cars
- Last 1955 Kaiser built at Haifa Israel plant for company use (1958, believed to have gone to ground in Israel)
- Last Kaiser Carabella built at Industrias Kaiser Argentina (IKA) in 1963 or 1964 (different sources give different years)
The car offered on Craigs List has been offered for sale more than once over the years in KFOCI MONTHLY BULLETIN with no takers. Unfortunately the "last" Kaiser does not have the provenance that other "last" cars have (last La Salle, Edsel, etc) when it comes to market pricing, especially in the current economy.
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I have the last 1951 Kaiser Deluxe built on september 20, 1950 right when the lunch bell rang. Does that increase it's value???
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Big Dave, what factory based documentation do you have to support this? According to Kaiser-Frazer factory records, production of Deluxe 4-door sedans, 2-door Sedans, 4-door Travelers and Club Coupes continued into early November 1951. This ties in with a memo from the Detroit MI zone office to dealers in the zone that states November 2, 1951 was the last day of production for the 1951 model year (so get those orders for 1951 Kaiser & HJ's in right away).
Monthly break-outs of production at Willow Run (so cars assembled at Portland during the latter part of the model year--long beach shut down in March 1951--are not included) by year, make, series and model through the end of the 1952 model year will be found among the pages of KFOCI HANDBOOK Version 5.0
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There are 3 "Last Kaisers Built" depending on when you feel the Last Kaiser was built and where:
- Last 1955 Kaiser built at Toledo for domestic sale (end of first run).
- Last 1955 Kaiser built at Toledo for Argentine sale (end of the second run).
- Last 1955 Kaiser Built at Toledo for company pool car use (factory documented, built during calendar 1957 from spare parts).
There are also the overseas built cars
- Last 1955 Kaiser built at Haifa Israel plant for company use (1958, believed to have gone to ground in Israel)
- Last Kaiser Carabella built at Industrias Kaiser Argentina (IKA) in 1963 or 1964 (different sources give different years)
The car offered on Craigs List has been offered for sale more than once over the years in KFOCI MONTHLY BULLETIN with no takers. Unfortunately the "last" Kaiser does not have the provenance that other "last" cars have (last La Salle, Edsel, etc) when it comes to market pricing, especially in the current economy.
A Kaiser Frazer of Israel Ltd. sales catalog dated April 1956 illustrates a 1952 Kaiser so I wonder if they ever changed over to the 1954-55 styling? They probably used up all of the parts that they had and by 1956 they would not have had any way to order more cars from Kaiser Willys. They were also selling Renault, Jeeps and Willys Aero's and motor scooters. The Aero illustrated looks like a 1952 model also. A 10th anniversary folder from 1961 is all in Hebrew language and does not illustrate any vehicles.
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Dave was clearly making a joke. It was that his '51 Deluxe was the last one made on a particular day before the lunch bell rang. I too had to think about that for a minute but I get what you're getting at Dave.
I have the last '53 Henry J to come out of an abandoned farm yard in Summerfield, KS in November '71.
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And if I'm not mistaken, I believe I have the last '53 Dragon to have successfully made a 1,240 mile drive from Texas to Utah two summers ago (many vapor locks later!). It was a good drive, though.
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I had an ALLSTATE that I think came out of Vern Hunt's ingenuity and Henry J parts.
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Yes, it was a joke. Regardless what day or line up my cars were built, they are what they are.
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You guys need to apply for recognition at the Guiness Book of Records!
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I got Big Dave's joke. That's what it is all about. Either enjoy the cars for what they are or get caught up in the "1 of" crowd and accomplish nothing, or very little.
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Just remember that there are several "last cars" for any situation
1. Last Car off the production line
2. Last car built from factory parts
3. Last car sold new by an authorized dealer
4. Highest serial number car (not always the last off the line depending on parts)
5. What you think is the last car
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How about the last one that I own?
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I have been around Kaisers and Frazers since my Dad bought a '47 Kaiser in '47 and had one every 2 years his last one was a '54.
I've had Kaisers, a Willys, Jaguars,Porshes,Alphas, and Healeys but the one I remember most was a 1951 Henry J 4 cylinder w/OD, that I got when I was 16.
I am now 74 and I have a 1951 Henry J Deluxe, slightly modified, flat black w/pinstripes, dropped 3 inches with duals otherwise bone stock, and I love it.
So I guess I have come full circle because this is the only LAST one I care about and will have.