Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Kaiser Forum => Topic started by: JoeKeys2010 on September 27, 2013, 07:43:26 PM
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I've a 49 Kaiser that tends to run out of gas once the car is hot or is driven very far. This is what I have done so far 1. Dropped the tank and cleaned it and reinstalled it. 2. Put on a new mechanical fuel pump. 3. Put a filter before and after the pump.
This is what I notice. When I crank the car cold both filters (they are see through) are full of gas. As the car warms up the filter between the pump and the carb will start running out of gas. The other filter between the tank and pump will be full and appear to have good circulation and it too will eventually run out of gas.
The car dies and no amount of priming it will get it to run. Once it cools off a little gas in the carb and the cycle starts all over again.
I have not replaced the fuel lines, no gas appears to be leaking out onto the ground. I have the gas lines as far away from the exhaust manifold as possible. I don't really want the hassle of installing an electric pump unless I have to.
Any ideas on how to solve the problem?
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Sounds to me like the heat riser in the exhaust manifold is stuck in the closed position and causing it to vapor lock. The reason it can't be primed when it is hot is that the manifold is so hot that the gas you are pouring in to prime it is immediately turning to vapor. You did not mention what type of gas you are using but if it has ethanol in it the boiling point is considerably lower than the gas that was available when the car was new. I would avoid putting an electric pump on it because that is just one more component to fail and it is not necessary as there are other means to keep it from vapor locking under normal usage. If the heat riser is not stuck, the muffler may be restricted or plugged up to the point it is raising the manifold temperature causing the vapor lock.
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I just went thru this exact thing with my 51Kaiser. The car had been sitting for about 2 years and was only cranked about once a month. I check the fuel pump discharge and notice that at low RPM supply seemed adequate but at increased RPM (1500-2000)the the fuel flow would diminish. I installed another fuel pump, known to work, and things appeared to be good. Three days later I was running it and decided to take it for a ride up the street. Me and 2 of my friends pushed it 800 feet back to the house, same problem. I thought I was out of gas (gauge does not work). I went and got fresh gas, still same problem. That evening I went to the car and it fired right up, ran great. Next day I fired it up ran 15 minutes same problem. I drained the gas and found I had 12 gallons in it so I was never out of gas. I blew the lines out put fresh NON alcohol gas and same thing happened. I then noticed that the exhaust damper was frozen half closed and began to believe that was the problem so I dropped the project for a couple of days. I the got out the shop manual and studied the exhaust damper cut-a-ways and calculated the open area with the exhaust damper half closed. I considered 2 things, the open area at half closed was larger than the exhaust pipe and the car had run OK before this happened. I decided to give it another shot. I then got some clear hose, put it on the inlet side of the fuel pump and put it a gallon jar with fresh gas in it and guess what? My known good fuel pump was intermittent and finally quit working at all during this session. I bit the bullet and bought a knew mechanical pump after strongly considering an electric one. I pulled the gas gauge, put on a new float, checked the tank, blew out all lines,installed new pump and filters. I Installed new plugs because during all this idling and stale alcohol gas the plugs were wanting to foul. She is purring like a kitten now and it is a very good solid low mileage engine so I am scared to drive it to far or hard with the exhaust damper half closed for fear of possible damage so it goes to the breakfast house,auto parts store,local pub,Lowes,the grocery store,and other low speed short trips. The car has been associated with my family and the local area since new but it is time for it to have a new home with a younger owner with a more healthy attitude and a love for a piece of automotive history.
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There are several factors in play here not only in Kaisers and Frazers but other makes of 1950's cars and trucks as well.
First, today's gasoline formulas result in an evaporation temperature at least 150 or so degrees F compared to gas formulas at the time our cars were new. The routing of the fuel lines out of the pump to the carb takes gas very close to a corner of the exhaust manifold. Also, the old style fuel pumps rely on engine action to keep pumping...once the engine begins to stutter due to gas bubbles (not air, but bits of evaporated gas in the line) the fuel pump starts cutting out and that makes flow of gas worse.
Add to this the impact of alcohol in the fuel and the matter gets worse. It's been found in tests that the ethanol compounds used and the increasing percentage of the stuff planned to be mandatory in the next couple of years intensifies deterioration of seals and fittings made from certain materials. NOS period fuel pumps are worthless in terms of today's gas as the original rubber seals will be dissolved by chemical interaction especially if the cars are not daily drivers or close to it. When the stuff sits, it's nastiness on the seals and fittings speeds up. Even many of the neoprene based products of older manufacture are failing. A new type material is starting to make its way into the market that seems to do better.
At present, the best approach seems to be a 6 volt fuel pump (you can hind it in the rear axle area of the cars) as it will push gas at the same rate even when the engine starts to sputter to move the gas bubbles through. If there is sufficient pressure (and we're talking 8 psi or so) on a constant basis good things can happen. I speak from the experience I had when I owned the 1951 Business Coupe. It was a lot more fun to drive once the electric pump went in. Also, seek out stations in your area that sell non-ethanol gasoline. There are websites that that will give you information on stations across the country that offer such a product.
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I'd like to try the damper first. I can get non etho gas so I'll try that too. I have a 1964 Ford Galaxie with a 427 and a manual pump with no problems. The exhaust sounds reasonable as I do see bubbles in the filter when it gets hot.
I have a repair manual and will look at the exhaust section to see if I can figure out the damper. I have a parts car so maybe I'll play with it first.
Is there anything I should know about stuck dampers that the manual May not tell me?
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Most of the time the damper shafts have to be cut and driven or sometimes drilled out. It is not an in car fix since the damper door is welded on the shaft after they are installed. If I can be of any help just let me know for I have shared your pain!! Cheers! Bill
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I think the parts for that exhaust valve are still available. I got mine a few years ago from Fred Walker's family's business. Included was the spring, shaft and counter weight, as well as the deflector plate. The plate can be made by any competent metal working shop, just take your old one as an example. Keep all your old parts, as examples, if nothing else.
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Ok I looked at the heat control unit and it moves freely open and close. The thermostat on my car is turned 180 degrees to what it is on my parts car so I'm thinking that maybe the thermostat on my car is in the wrong position and hence is not working. I am going to attach three photos. Photo one will be the thermostat on my car in the normal position. Photo two will show the thermostat being held open by my finger. Photo three will be the thermostat on the parts car.
Can some look at the photos and tell me which car is right? Both are 1949 Kaiser Deluxe.
Thanks
Joe
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Here is a picture of what the spring looks like when my car has been running for 15 minutes
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I think I may have these parts on my list. Mike
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Here is the stuff from the 51 shop manual. Cheers! Bill
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Thanks that a bit clearer than what is in the 49 manual. I've ran the car with it in both positions but the fuel filter between the pump and the carb will not stay full once the car heats up. According to the temp gage I'm running just above 160. I don't think I have solved my problem.
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Take the inlet line on the the fuel pump off. Get 5 or 6 feet of clear 5/16 tubing from lowes or somewhere and put it on the inlet (tank) side of the pump,stick it in a gallon jug of non alcohol gas. Start it up and watch it. Also get that outlet line to the carb away from the manifold even if you have to change the position of the fittings at the pump and run it out from the pump and up against the inner fender and back to the carb.
Now, another condition I have experienced on Kaisers and others. The pickup tube in the tank is soldered to the bottom in such a way that it forms a trap. Particles gather at this point and block the pickup tube. This process takes a little time, the engine starves and as the particles fall away from this trap it will crank again and repeat the cycle getting you farther and farther from home. Next scenario! Kaiser put a glass sediment bowl on the generator side of the frame that will start to fill up with stuff and starve the engine after a while, and again as the particles fall back to the bottom of the glass bowl. It will crank again and run til the particles get sucked up against the screen or filter and starve the engine again. Next scenario! As the tank ages it is not usually full of gas so if the tank is half full when sitting everything above the gas level will rust and corrode. If the pickup tube is half out of the gas, holes will develop in the tube and when the tank is filled up it will run and when the gas level falls below the holes in the tube "da pump don't work no more". Put a gallon of gas in it and it runs. If you are using your overdrive on a well tuned engine you will be able to go 22 to 24 miles before you walk to the station again. Time to go to bed and dream about Kaisers! I know I wandered away a little but these things happen on old cars, all of them. These little particles I keep referring to, 90% of them are rust.
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As the sender unit for water temp starts to go out (and they do with age) my experience is that the needle doesn't move up much past 160. I checked the radiator with a thermometer and found the water was closer to 190F.
Senders are available; you should not use the version with the numbers "240" on it. That is for the 1953 Kaiser with the recalibrated gage. Also, when is the last time you flushed the radiator and cooling system really good, and are you using the Champion J-8/Auto-Lite A=7 plug or are you down to the Auto-Lite A-5 and AC 44 type plugs? I cut 20 degrees F (using same method I have already described) off the radiator top tank temperature when I went down to the A-5's. According to the Auto-lite spark plug books, the change reduces spark level just a bit; you adjust timing, etc, based on the 1951 Kaiser and Frazer Shop Manual info for A-5's.
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I have not seen a glass bowl on the generator side of the motor so I will check for that next. I did flush the radiator yesterday but the antifreeze that came out was not really in that bad of shape. The car ran fine when I first bought it and only recently started doing this.
I dropped the tank right after I got it and cleaned it really good however yesterday when I removed the sending unit and ran my finger along the roof go the tank there was an orange residue (rust) on the tip of the tank. I was disappointed because I took great care to clean the tank. I will probably drop the tank again and see what I have.
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Joe, The 49 may not have that sediment bulb. Most of my Kaiser experience is with 51 & 52. Cheers! Bill
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A few thoughts from my experience. Make SURE all the fuel line joints are tight and don't leak. Any air getting into the system or lack of pressure due to a fuel leak may cause this problem.
Another possibility s that there is crud preventing the proper sealing of the diaphragms in the fuel pump. (Probably doesn't explain why it stops after it get hot, though).
Have you checked the water temp with another gauge? I have one of those laser ones that you can get at Harbor Freight, cheap and effective. The other one to have is a meat thermometer. Also cheap but effective. I use both to ensure accuracy. The one on the dash of my car is not accurate anymore. The water in my radiator stays around 170-180, even on hot days.
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The gas tank nor lines leak gas. The fuel pump is new. I have not verified engine temp but the car does not boil over so I would guess it is not running hot.
Even though I cleaned the tank completely, there is rust dust forming in the roof of the tank. I will drop it again and see if the tank can be lined to prevent rust.
It may be that there is settlement in the tank that is causing my problem. I thought this to be impossible since I dropped and cleaned the tank recently but yesterday removed the sending unit and discovered rust bloom on the inside roof of the tank.
Keep in mind the car once ran fine and only recently started giving me problems. While the exhaust damper moves freely I dint think the thermostat spring is installed correctly since when it gets hot it does not move the damper. (See the third picture I posted).
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The reason I suggested running it out of a gallon jug was to eliminate all the old stuff, tank, gas line, etc. If it runs OK you will know it is some of the old stuff at fault. If it still runs bad you will know it is from the fuel pump to the carb. Then hang a tank from an old lawnmower or something, from the hood latch and gravity feed it directly to the carb. This will isolate it from the fuel pump and all manifold heat. If it still runs as you have described then it is either the carb(unlikely) or the exhaust is stopped up. One of these procedures will isolate the problem. The object here is to get it running good again then work backwards. I promise, do this and you will isolate the problem. Cheers! and keep us posted! Bill
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Now to deal with the rust particles if any. Get a GOOD magnet like those used in transmission pans (Chrysler). They are about as big around as a quarter and about a 1/4" thick. Remove the sending unit from the tank drop the magnet in the tank. Should it fall next to the end of the pick up tube, take something (stick, yard stick, etc) and position the magnet away from the end of the pick up tube it will stay there. As you drive and bounce around it will capture the rust particles. One of these magnets will hold a ball of rust the size of half a tennis ball. It want hurt to leave it there and if it gets full drop another one in. Cheers! Bill
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I may have solved the gas problem. I did put a magnet in the tank but it did not seem to pick up anything. There was no collection tube on the side of the motor. I did buy some additional gas line and moved the line going from the pump to the carburetor away from the exhaust and closer to the radiator. I changed the filter between the carb and the pump and started the car. Let it run for 30 minutes and saw the gas level of the filter between the carb and pump begin to drop. Shut the car off and changed the filter between the tank and the pump and noticed that it was really nasty dirty. I dumped some of it out on a bench and ran a magnet across is to see if there was metal there but nothing stuck to the magnet. I cranked the car and let it run for 45 minutes and did not see a drop in the fuel level in the filter that runs between the pump and the carb.
I am guessing that the sludge in the filter must have been in the gas lines, as I did not flush them out when I dropped the tank. I don't understand why it only ran out of gas when the engine was hot if in fact the fuel filters were clogged. At any rate it seems to have solved the problem so I will take it out for a spin and see what happens. I'll also keep an eye on the filters.
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Dont trust a new fuel pump. The suppliers are not selling dozens of these a day so they may sit around for years and they will go bad.
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I took her out for a spin and no troubles with the gas! A month long problem has been solved...i hope.
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Update. Before taking the car out of service I changed an inline filter I had installed just before the pump to find it really dirty. Changed the filer and had no more problems. Then I got to thinking why did the filter get so clogged when I dropped the tank and cleaned it out real good. Took a look at the tank and found orange rust all over the inside. Very disappointing.
I sent the tank to a nearby radiator shop and had it vatted and then lined. I likewise changed all of the steel gas lines from the tank to the fuel pump and even ran a steel line from the fuel pump to the carbonator. I took my time bending the lines and they look just like the original ones; even fit into the same clams/brackets along the frame.
I have not driven it much since then so I'll let you know what happens. I don't think it was vapor lock though, I think it was simply rust in the gas that eventually clogged the fuel filters.