Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: darrin502 on August 01, 2009, 07:09:03 PM
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www.flickr.com/photos/41073179@N08/
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Great - thanks! I saw this car
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2593/3778733581_95fd91a36c_m.jpg)
and this car
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3490/3779539120_4b0b5bf08a_m.jpg)at a rally in North Saint Paul, MN last night
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All those KFs and I didn't see one 1949-1950 Frazer that looked like mine with the mercury head hood ornament and the trim along the door panels. I realize that most of the 49s converted into 50s got new hood ornaments and emblems with the buffaloes, but ours didn't. Did I miss it? Great pics though!!
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The 1949/50 Frazers are always scant at KF meets/shows. They're very popular but they're quite rare too so you don't see that many.
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Why are they so rare? I'm still waiting for my membership packet but hope to find some members with them in the Lodi, CA area since there was a show there this past June. I'd love to see one finished so I have an idea what mine will look like.
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Jeri Conklin, do you have any pictures of your 49 on the net? I have family in Lodi, Ca., Is that where your at? I've been a member for almost 2 years and have only seen in person 1 finished 49 Frazer, and it needed some motor work.
"I realize that most of the 49s converted into 50s got new hood ornaments and emblems with the buffaloes, but ours didn't."... I thought the 49's and the 50's were exactly the same. Just different tags.
And the buffaloes were Kaiser's only.
Here's the colors I'm thinking for my 49...Thoughts??? (http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll376/willy55893/Kaiser%20Frazer/EXQUISITE1949FRAZERMANHATTANCOMBO.jpg)
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There is NO difference between 1949 and 1950 KF--only the data tag would ID a car as 49 or 50.
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FrazerWill, we live in Browns Valley, CA about 45 miles northeast of Sacramento. In between Grass Valley and Marysville/Yuba City off of Hwy 20, probably about an hour and a half from Lodi, CA. Is your family involved with Frazers? I'll work at getting some pictures up today. Beautiful maroon color, I like it! I'm going to get as close as I can to the Blade Green Metallic though I realize that it might not be a perfect match. My 49 just needs interior work and outside body work, brakes and paint as the original motor runs great.
Ben-tex I realize the guts of the 49 and 50 are no different but I see them finished out differently in the grill, emblem and hood ornament, hence my curiosity. Since mine is definitely a Frazer all the way, I want to keep it as true as possible to that ideal. I don't see a lot of 49 finished interior pics so would love to see some that are finished on the inside, or something close. I understand through reading the history of KF that Kaiser and Frazer mergered around the 50s. I have the 50s tag, but it seems mine got left with all the Frazer 49 accessories and just got a new tag. I want to keep it as true to its heritage as possible and realize I can't compete with it because it may in the end have some unoriginal parts such as a back seat :-) but they are such a beautiful car, I think others would enjoy seeing it as close as I can get it. Thank you all for your feedback and I will get pics up under Frazer forum today.
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Jeri Conklin, My Frazer was sold in 1950 but it has 49 tags. (i'm keeping it a 49)
I'm the only KF nut in my family though my 17yo daughter likes my 49.
In 1951 was the year the Frazer changed alot, but 49-50 were the same.
Heres a 51.... http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bI.RunVKugYAAMKjzbkF/SIG=12do6fuug/EXP=1249315857/**http%3A//oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Kaiser/1951Frazer-a.jpg
Heres a 49....
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bF_uunVKPEAAWm6jzbkF/SIG=129muuj4n/EXP=1249315950/**http%3A//static.howstuffworks.com/gif/frazer-cars-4.jpg
Heres a 50...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/61/188466811_640d4a698d_o.jpg
Old man Kaiser and Frazer mergered there efforts to build a car in like 1946...most likely earlier. Frazer was the car guy and Kaiser was the money. Frazer was fed-up with Kaiser's bull-headedness in 49, and 49 or 50 he was outta there (or stepped down) but kept the kaiser Frazer name almost the same. I can only imagine what KF would have been like if Frazer with things like a V8's would of been like. I've heard comments like KF would have had the first "pony car"
I've had a chip on my shoulder about Kaiser until I read some history on him. He seems like a good guy but should of listened more to Frazer.
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Looks like you have to copy and paste "all" the address to show the pic's.
Jeri Conklin, If your tag is 1950, I think there are less 50 tags then 49 tags although it the same car.
Hope to see pic's of your car soon. I have a few pic's of the 49's I've seen online if your interested.
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Okay, pictures of my 1949-1950 Frazer are uploaded under the Frazer Form as 1949-1950 Frazer Pictures. Seems like it worked. Here is the website just in case you want to go in through here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/41052016@N02/?saved=1
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Heres a 51....
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bI.RunVKugYAAMKjzbkF/SIG=12do6fuug/EXP=1249315857/**http%3A//oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Kaiser/1951Frazer-a.jpg)
Heres a 49....
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bF_uunVKPEAAWm6jzbkF/SIG=129muuj4n/EXP=1249315950/**http%3A//static.howstuffworks.com/gif/frazer-cars-4.jpg)
Heres a 50...
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/61/188466811_640d4a698d_o.jpg)
Made them click-free for you.
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The only way to really tell what your car is: look at the ID plate on the driver's door post.495...=standard frazer 4 door; 496...=Manhattan 4 door. The 1950 versions should have 50 as the prefix if the factory reps did what they were supposed to do and change out the tags on the dealer's stock. Your car appears to be a Manhattan but the trim could have been added.
One more time: there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in 1949 and 1950 models other than the ID tag. Production was low for 1949 Frazers with only around 25,000 total with about 40% being Manhattans. No one really knows how many were converted to 50 but the number is small. There are about 40-50 each standard and Manhattan in the club registry with fewer than 10% being 1950.
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The firewall ID plate has BN# 15944 and F495 Body 1 and AG 5 (which I understand is the accessory group for the Manhattan). However, the plate on the driver's side door panel is F-505-015807 which means it was designated a 1950. However, nothing was changed by way of hood ornament, grill, Frazer emblem - yet, I have the door trim and it appears to have been there originally and not added on. She also has the upright tail lights, not the sideways lights. Whatever she is, I love her!
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It's hard to say how the 1949/50 cars were equipped and shipped etc. We had a 1949 Frazer Manhattan, the model number was F496 indicating that it was indeed a Manhattan. The interior was very fancy, lots of chrome on the door panels and dash, inside window frames were chrome, chrome rings on the color coordinated shift knob and signal light lever. But... on the outside, it lacked the belt molding I've seen on so many Manhattans and even some standards (but as ben points out, it could've been added to the standard models by restorers or owners who preferred it) and it had the single, smaller rocker panel moldings too. The title and numbers all indicated it was indeed a 1949 Manhattan. Here's my favorite picture of it
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7e1d7a6da800000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160922012720652.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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According to your numbers you have a 1950 standard Frazer.
I don't understand your comment about the tail lights as ALL 49-50 F had the upright lights.
Also the AG 5 seems to be for standards as well and AG 6 was for Manhattans. The handbook states no confidental bulletins spell out the contents of these groups.
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Beautiful picture! Mine has no visor, nor does it have holes or anything where it might have been. From what I understand, there has been no restoration attempt in the past on my car. It was in a garage for quite awhile and then moved to a field where the guy I got it from found it. I just know I have a beautiful car also and she just must have been special with the door trim. Perhaps her original owner ordered her that way. The front seat is leather and that is all I have for the interior, no cloth/leather panels for the doors or anything to go by. Thank you for sharing your picture. If the plates weren't in place I might think perhaps they had gotten switched at birth :) :).
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Ben-Tex - in some of the pictures through the links to other KF members and their cars was the picture of a purported 1949 Frazer with the long sideways tail lights. I'm new and just attempting to learn, I may get stuff wrong, I'm sorry. I understand now that Kaisers had the sideways tail lights on the 49 model and Frazer had the up and down tail lights. I'm still learning the differences between the Kaiser and Frazer models, so forgive me please. So perhaps the picture I saw that said "Frazer" was incorrectly labeled and should have been "Kaiser." I sincerely appreciate all the assistance from everyone as this is a totally new area for me. Thank you.
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Don't feel too badly Jeri as one thing us KF people always have to contend with is that there are basically only two different bodies (and some variations on them, 2 dr, 4 dr, hatchback) and most parts from different years / models bolt right on to all the others. The thing newer members of this hobby may not be familiar with is that many of the cars were first restored in the 60s and 70s before there was an internet and ebay. This meant information, parts, literature etc. was not always available and restorers had to use whatever they could find in salvage yards (most of those are gone now too), or if they were lucky enough to find old dealers who still had parts, to restore their vehicles. Very few are truly authentic any more. Even back in the 70s we'd encounter many of them in salvage yards that had already been altered with parts from other models. The best guides for what was original are the original shop manual (a factory issue), brochures, factory service bulletins, parts manuals and other factory literature. I've learned never to believe what a previous owner tells me. I saw a very nice 1952 Kaiser Virginian at a rally last Friday evening. The proud, new owner proclaimed "It is all original..." but I didn't have the heart to inform him of several obvious modifications and it likely would've only upset him if I did. His car is beautiful regardless and I'm sure yours is too. That's what makes the hobby fun is putting something old and antique back in the public arena where others can enjoy it. If it's all original, that's great but if it's a nice old car that someone took the time and effort to preserve, that's great as well. If people want to talk facts, I'm happy to do that but if they want to show off their car and take pride in it, even if it has some alterations / modifications, I'll still be right there with them every time. I have a '52 Henry J Vagabond that was originally a standard four cylinder model. When the engine threw a rod, I replaced it with a 6 cylinder engine, overdrive transmission and added all the deluxe model trim to it because that's how I wanted it. I'll never claim it's "all original" but I'll agree with everyone who tells me it's "...a very nice car", because a lot of people do!
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Well FID is right on when he made the comment about the claims of "all original" for KF cars. And you can't trust pics either!
We were all beginners at one time and I am a 37 model and still make a mistake every once in a while :)
Whatever you do don't loose your enthusiasm.
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I just googled and found this "all original" 49 standard. There are a number on non-original pieces for sure.
I seem to recall seeing this car for sale somewhere--perhaps on ebay.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2982584 (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2982584)
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Thank you both for the info. Given the pictures that ben-tex just sent of a supposed original 1949, I'm beginning to question as to whether or not my front seat that was suppose to be original really is since there is an ashtray in the box of "pieces and parts" that came in the trunk that looks just like the one in the picture which would go on the back of the front seat. There are no holes in the back side leather of the front seat to allow for the addition of that ashtray. Perhaps there has been some restoration done afterall and the front seat was re-covered in leather without the ashtray or perhaps they just never got it in, but obviously something has been done. I guess each day will bring new surprises! My goal is to keep her as original as possible and that is the best I can do as I know that I can't get all the original parts. She'll be beautiful no matter how altered she becomes.
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Jeri, here's a photo of the back seat of the 1949 Manhattan we had. The photo was taken in 1981, pretty sure it was original as we were the second owner. But as you know, you never know!
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7e08d82d9800000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160922012722826.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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The color of your leather seat is the color of mine and I felt in the back and there are places for the ashtray in the metal frame. I think this is the original seat after all. Perhaps the ashtray was just an extra piece thrown in. Would you have a picture of either of the front inside doors? That will give me an idea of what I'm missing to see if it might be in the box. Also, what are the rules on seat belts? I'm guessing they didn't have them way back then, so do we have to put them in now, and do they have to be the shoulder type or can we get away with lap belts?
Thanks again for the pictures, they help so much!
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Jeri Conklin, as far as I know seat belts are required after 1965 or so. Before that it's ok not to have them, but they are a good idea.
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"I can't get all the original parts." Jeri, take your time and the parts will come. I just got some radio button clips from a member here. (I'm a happy camper) and theres seller who have NOS and used parts too.
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The seats in our 1949 Manhattan were not leather. They were the original green cloth but at the time (1974), the only seat covers we could find that would fit the car were red so we installed the red seat covers, then put green slip covers over them and that's what you see in the photo. The original seats were quite nice yet in that car at the time.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7f1c8c0d8a00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160922012723619.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/) and (https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7f88d00d9c00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160922012723447.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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The Frazer looks gorgeous! But what's with the white stuff on the ground around it?
Around these parts, I'd probably get thumped by any car buff if he saw me out with my '54 with that white stuff on the ground.
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The car was originally restored in November/December 1974, in Omaha, NE and we were pretty exited to drive it so it did see snow that first month but never again. That photo was taken Christmas Eve 1974
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Bet you didn't have to put snow chains on a Frazer with their weight! Beautiful photos, thank you, gives me great ideas and now I have a couple more things on my list of missing parts.
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Just move down here to Texas if you want to avoid that white stuff. It's been over 100 degrees here nearly every day for over two months!
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Here's what it looked like just 6 weeks earlier -
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7eaa3aac1b00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160922012718996.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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What a change! Gives us inspiration that it can be done! Beautiful endeavor.
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I agree, Fid. I've seen that picture of your Frazer on several occasions, but now I know just what a great job you did bringing her back to life. Nice work!
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http://rides.webshots.com/album/574630276gxsklO
More pictures from the 2009 National at Matamoras, Pa.
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Nice pictures...How do I download them?
And...
Where do I get one of those T shirts from??
(see if this works) http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2172905220029945987KWdsdT
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http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2758212000029945987zRILmZ
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Thanks for posting these Dave. Great photos, great cars.
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Webshots has a lot of screwy policies..... It says you need to be a "friend" to download
the darn pictures..... Guess you need to create a Webshots account and then request me
to add you as a friend....... which I will certainly do...... Let me know what I can do to help.