Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: frankies frazer on December 09, 2014, 10:15:41 PM
-
Hello,
I'm new at this forum.
Was wondering if anyone on this site knows anything about the three 1947 Kaiser Frazer concept pickups that Madman Muntz had made. There is an article on one of them in Hot Rod Magazine.
Thanks
Bob
-
Wow!!!
There must not be much information on this subject.
If anyone knows anything or anybody that can help, please contact me or post what you know.
I have been doing some research on the Kaiser Frazer concept pickup and will post my findings soon.
Thank you
-
Earlier I stated that there was some info on these trucks in a Hot Rod magazine.
It was not HOT ROD but "CUSTOM CLASSIC TRUCKS' Oct 2012
-
Hey Jake,
Thanks,
That's a cool picture!
I've been checking (or more like stumbling around) the forum but haven't seen much except that one magazine article.
can you steer me towards some more?
I love the old car/ truck conversions and especially the Kaiser Frazer's that were done to try and get into the pickup market!!
-
The car pictured above is NOT the claimed Madman Muntz car. The "Muntz" car has a separate step-side style bed taken from a pick-up truck and, last I knew, was painted white. I believe it was a 1949 or 1950. Ray Frazier is the last person I know that owned it. The late Jim Davies of East Point, GA (outside Atlanta) owned it for years and is probably the one that made it. 30 years ago, the late John Parker told me that years before that, he was under the pick-up for some reason and recognized a weld that he had done on that car WHEN IT WAS A CAR!
There was a one page article in Cars & Parts (?) magazine in the 1970's or 1980's that showed several pics of the car, made the claim about Muntz and said that the car had a Pontiac straight eight in it at that time.
According to John Parker, Muntz never had anything to do with this specific vehicle. Muntz was a KF dealer in Los Angeles in the 1940's after WWII and maybe created a Kaiser pick-up for use at the dealership, but this car in question is not it.
On a related note: there was a Ben Walker quarterly years ago with an article by Allen Hogle (jeez, all these guys except Ray are now late. Really sad.) about Muntz and his dealership. He interviewed a then co-worker of mine (Elmer Adams) who was one of Muntz's salesmen at that time.
Sorry I was not able to find a picture of this car. Does anyone have a copy of the article? I think it may have been copied into a quarterly at some point.
-
Aeroman,
Thanks for the great information!
Yes, does any one have a copy or a link to the article aeroman talked about or a picture of the white supposedly muntz truck from GA?
Or any other information about these pickups
-
Another shot of the same car. As Aeroman stated, the Muntz units used a pickup bed rather than just cutting the top off a sedan. I like it none the less.
-
Another Kaiser pickup. This is a period picture taken around 1947.
-
I've posted it before, but here's another picture of the Henry J my dad converted to a pickup in 1959. Picture was taken in '67. By then it had a Chevy 283 V8 with a four speed in it. Unfortunately, it still had the factory HJ 4:55 rear end so it didn't perform very well.
-
Here is a good article about the 1947 Kaiser Muntz pickup built recently
Its about half way through the article before it's talked about
Good information
http://robbreport.com/automobiles/reinventing-wheel
-
As Stated in the article. (Hot Rod news and Custom Classic Trucks magazine also makes the same claim!
"Ken Fenical of "Posies" also recently completed a 1947 Kaiser pickup truck, one of just 3 examples originally built in 1950. “It’s one of just three Kaiser pickups built for Earl ‘Madman’ Muntz,” Fenical explains. Known as the king of California television sales in the ’50s, Muntz also invented the four-track tape recorder, a forerunner to the eight-track. According to Fenical, back in the day these rare pickups were used by Kaiser dealers as promotional vehicles. This is the sole survivor, he says, and you can bet some purists are upset that it’s been extensively modified. But if Fenical is worried about retribution from the Kaiser Frazer Owners Club, he doesn’t show it. - See more at: http://robbreport.com/automobiles/reinventing-wheel#sthash.Z9wcVEQO.dpuf
-
found the link to the actual 47 Kaiser pickup project of Ken Fenical...
http://www.posiesrodsandcustoms.com/customer_statements/kaiser-dash/
-
Couldn't get the link to work.
-
okay then try this link below and if it works scroll down to the pic of the green 1947 Kaiser pickup and click on it....
http://www.posiesrodsandcustoms.com/category/shopprojects/
-
i just tried it and it worked for me.
-
I got the link to work what a neat location I spent an hour browsing the
site Thanks
-
New link worked great. Nice ride, that Frazer pick-up. Not the Muntz one that I know, maybe it was once a Muntz truck. Would need to see documentation to believe it.
-
This custom seems to have a Frazer style grill and does not seem to have the separate truck bed that the Muntz made trucks allegedly had. It does make a nice looking custom.
-
Here are some pictures of the truck built by a body shop in Long Beach for some Southern California K-F dealers. A memo was sent from the Southern California Division of K-F back to Willow Run suggesting the company offer this model but at the time there were still over 500,000 orders in hand from dealers for new Kaiser or Frazer cars so the project was never pursued
-
Of the three 3 pickups made, one was a 3 speed, one was a four speed, and one with an automatic. The one that is being talked about is the automatic. I have also have talked to the owner and he claims they made them all different to test the market. There is a 3 speed in New Mexico that is in original condition and I am working on getting pictures of it. I have also contacted it's owner and hope to get some more details. I have also found out that one of the trucks was a Frazer.
-
The late Howard Edmunds from Hastings, Michigan, had a 53 Kaiser that was professionally converted into an El-Camino style pickup. The work, according to him, was completed in the early 60s by a firm in Detroit whose name now escapes me.
He also had a 49 Frazer Traveler that I ended up with. It had a Frazer serial number tag and Kaiser trim and body tags. Both he and I suspected someone many years ago switched bodies on a frame that was probably wrecked. A fellow KFer still has the front sheet metal and much of the driveline is now in my 50 Traveler.
Howard was a well known Kaiser collector. At the time of his passing he has about 100 cars. All ran and drove to where they sat but deteriorated over the years to being parts cars. A 50 Frazer convertible was rescued and restored by another club member.
-
I would like to see a picture of Howards truck.
The man that owns the Kaiser truck also states the truck beds were grafted on like a unibody pickup (like his truck) and not separate like todays trucks even though they may have used a truck bed.
-
We know that automatics and four speeds were not available in 1947 so they must have been customized much later and are not the Muntz customs. I lived in Long Beach CA in 1947 and had visited the Dealer on American Ave. to collect the literature on the new cars. I used to walk all over town visiting the new car dealers and went to the showing of the new Davis cars and the Tucker which was being shown in a body shop that was also the new Tucker dealer.
-
Hmmmm, According to the owner of the Green Kaiser Pickup and the article about the truck, the 3 promotional trucks were made in 1950 by Betts in southern Ca and were all made different to show the public what they could offer. I'm not sure when they offered an automatic but it is not out of the question to use one if they were around then because they did use a pickup bed from other automotive makes.
The Davis Dealership truck was made out of a wrecked car in 1948.
-
The Hydro-matic was used by Pontiac in 1950 and the motor in in the Green Kaiser truck had a Pontiac straight eight.
-
I guess that's all the history and or information we are going to get, but if you just stumbled onto this thread and have some information or history on these incredible trucks please do so.
Again thanks for everyone's help!
-
Has anyone found the article about the Kaiser Pickup in the quarterly or in the "car and parts" magazine?
I have been trying to find them with no luck!
Any Guesses of dates that it might be?
-
Thanks Jake!
Is the quarterly available on line?
I am not a member of the KFclub
-
The Quarterly Magazine is but just one benefit of club membership. Why don't you join the club and enjoy all of the extras? ???
-
Hello again,
Thanks Jake, for the info.
**** I have talked with Gary, the owner of the Kaiser concept truck #3 by Madman Muntz and he was so kind enough to give me the Serial number and body numbers off his truck.
**** I checked the numbers to the 1947 Frazer pickup from Oregon and THEY ARE WITHIN A FEW DAYS APART!!!!!!!!!!!
****I also found where the first one was a three speed Frazer Manhattan (which this is!)
****I have looked at the original title from southern California and it says it's a PICKUP not a SEDAN like it started life!!
****The truck also had a 1947 with a 1950 tab (updated sticker) California Dealer license plate #1
****There are many, many other things that identify this truck as the FIRST truck commissioned by Earl Muntz!
****And being a Frazer and not a Kaiser it is a 1 of 1 not a 1 of 3!!!!! Oh My!!
****I have contacted the owner and have bought this truck!!!!!!!!
Thanks to everyone who has helped Identify this truck!
-
Pictures coming soon!
-
Here is a few pictures of the 1947 Frazer Manhattan Pickup
-
Interior is dark blue
the exterior was Gunmetal over Gray
-
one more!
Don't have many photos yet but will soon
As you can see, it is a very solid truck. No rust through anywhere!
-
Nice truck How and where did you find it if I may ask please ?
Fred
-
Thank you, yes very cool truck! I spotted on Craig's list and it came from Oregon. I can't believe I was able to purchase it after it was exposed! I hope to find more documentation and write a complete history of the truck
-
I happened to notice the "Manhattan" script visible on the left front fender. This is indeed a rare find and interesting vehicle. I can imagine documenting what came with the original Muntz modification is going to be tough. Congrats on your purchase.
John B.
-
Thank you!
I do have documentation that the first kaiser Frazers were shipped to Muntz dealership and the serial numbers puts these concept trucks there because they are early numbers.
-
What is really nice is the truck seems to be completely original from when it was turned into a truck. The man that has the Kaiser truck completely restored and customized it. They are only original once!
-
The club tracks car data plate information. Elsewhere on our site theres a link to an online form where you can add your find to the list. If your car is indeed a Muntz conversion, we would like to track it's existence as one of the special vehicles built.
Muntz was one of KFs early distributors and his west coast operation moved a lot of cars early on. It is thought that his shop converted a few sedans into pickups and if so and this is one of them, then you have a great find!
I'm glad the car has been saved and I hope you plan to restore it. Also, consider joining the KF club as membership will give you access to the resources needed to get your car....um...truck back on the road.
-
Thanks,
Yes I think I will join the club.
I am putting together all the information and documentation I have and will post it here soon!
I would like very much to share the info with the club.
-
Earl Muntz was not a dealer but the Distributor for K-F in the Southern California area and New York City. A January 1946 magazine ad in the Los Angeles area listed thirty one dealers from Santa Barbara on the North to Riverside on the East and Santa Ana on the South, a large area in about five counties. He did not stay with Kaiser-Frazer for very long and sold his Distributorships and moved on to making televisions. Wasn't it determined that the pick-ups were made from wrecked cars several years after they were manufactured? I've never seen any evidence that Muntz had anything to do with converting the cars but one of his dealers could have. These were simply a conversion and had nothing to do with Kaiser-Frazer. The Airport Limosines were converted from brand new Kaisers but not made by Kaiser Frazer either. These pick-up trucks are interesting customs but were never sponsored or approved by K-F and Muntz seemed to be long gone by the time the pick-ups were made. Some Kaiser Frazer dealers also made convertibles out of Henry J's and a couple of them are still around.
-
Jake...What is the one in Nb like .I looked on CL but didn't see it . So where is it advertised ?
Thanks...Fred
-
Hudson pickups are not common. Hopefully the deal is good for both!
-
answer to Gordies post
http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/1210cct-1947-kaiser-truck/
this article will explain some of your questions
Earl Muntz was still with KF when the 3 trucks were built but left soon after
Earl was also buying out Kurtis race car factory to build his Muntz Jets at this time
All around 1950
thanks for the input
-
Oh!
Also the trucks are known to be made from 3 new unsold 1947 sedans
-
Sorry but I am a hard sell! The article on the new Posie restoration is nice but written by someone who wasn't even born in 1947 and is hazy on facts. First, K-F never made any 1954 pickups however someone customized one and it is still around. Second, K-F would never have donated three new cars to a dealer to experiment with. K-F had their own in plant styling department and could have built their own versions if they wanted to. I believe that one of the trucks was the one shown by Joe Frazer on page one and by Jack Mueller on page two of this site and by judging from the interior it was obviously a well used car to start with. There is no evidence that Earl Muntz ever had anything to do with the building of these trucks but one of his dealers certainly did and it is a nice looking truck. It is too bad that the original trucks are not still around in original condition as I am sure that there were differences in the way that they were built. Until I see some real evidence I have to believe that these trucks were converted long after they were manufactured first by a K-F dealer in South Gate CA and later by several individuals who wanted their own custom pick-ups and a few of them have also survived. Ernie Chavis was on Madman Muntz original list of dealers in 1946 but later moved from his original location in Compton CA to the location painted on his truck in Southgate CA. I saw Earl Muntz at his used car lot on Sepulveda Blvd. in Van Nuys CA around 1970. I wish now that I had talked with him! He had his Muntz Jet parked near his office.
-
Are there pictures of the 'Posie' truck before any work was done to it?
-
You are right! It's all a little hazy with many different stories, some right (maybe) and some wrong (maybe). And yes the article on the Posie truck seems to have some new facts that haven't been around. I would like to know their sources and documentation. Supposedly their is a separate tag put on these trucks with Curtis Betts name on them.
What about the article in the Quarterly and the man on this post earlier that talked about the 1947 Kaiser pickup from Georgia that claimed Muntz providence? The Posie truck claims it's from Georgia. Seems like the Muntz's name has been on these KF pickups for a long time.
Their is also a story in the book "the onslaught of Detroit" about Muntz receiving the first KF's and these pickups have very early numbers and they are both within a few days of each other (very Ironic)!
Of course their are other stories too. It would be pretty amazing if all the stories were just coincidences or made up, but I guess it could.
Thank you for your input, you seem very knowledgeable about all this.
-
Also,
In Wikipedia under "Muntz Car Company" it says that [There were 3 promotional pickups built by Earl Muntz but didn't make it to production], and Muntz Car Company was established in 1950. This is when Posie or Hot Rod Network claims that the trucks were built!
-
The owner of the 1947 Kaiser pickup has his truck on loan and displayed in a famous museum in PA ( I'll look up the name and post it) for the past 4 months, claiming the muntz promo. I would think (but I could be wrong because I am no expert) the truck must have some documentation or he wouldn't be able to do this.
-
Very hard to say but it Looks as if a pickup bed has been grafted on, in a unibody type configuration like the unibody ford of the 60's or an El Camino look. It also looks as if a back of a pickup might have been used to form the back of the cab. I am not for sure, but that's what it looks like.
I have no written proof of this being one of the trucks (except that the serial and body numbers are just a day or two apart from the Hot Rod Network or the Posie truck) and was wondering what are the odds of that! there are dozens of other things that points towards that it could be!
I am going to write a list of all the things that points towards it being one of the trucks.
I have also talked to Gary who owns the Posie truck and he is suppose to share with me his documentation and where he got his information. He has already been kind enough to share the numbers off his truck. I was really surprised and happy to get this information and will post the rest of the information soon.
I also realize that there will be some people that will deny that it could be the truck. I owned the 1973 Bill Mitchell Trans Am that was the first Black and Gold trans am and had many documents to proof it along with the designer John Sinellas signature and it had been in many magazines and most Pontiac books, but there were people high up in the Pontiac club that wouldn't believe it, But it was and it sold at mecum auction for $145,000.00
You can't please everyone
-
I recently heard from Rudy Phillips, our K-F parts supplier from Ramona CA about these pickups and as Rudy has been to most National Meets over the last thirty or so years he is very familiar with most of them. He mentioned that the one done allegedly by the dealer in Compton CA was actually built by someone in San Diego and then sold to the Compton dealer. He knows the owners and history of several of them and you might get some interesting facts from Rudy. Many of them were built in the 1980's. Rudy's number is 760 789 3608
-
Thanks Gordie,
I have heard about Rudy because I was looking for vintage hub caps for this truck. I will call him and see if he has caps and pick his brain about these trucks. I have always liked the pickups that look like cars, like the Hudson. I'm glad I never bought a Hudson because I would t have found this truck! I also have always like the KF cars and when this pickup came up on Craig's list I was smittened. It was a good price ($1700). I am also going to join the club because now I'm hooked lol
Thanks again for Rudy's # and your knowledge
-
Does anyone know a Dave Clark from Oregon??
He was the owner of the truck in the 50's
-
I am considering putting an item in the next release of KFOCI HANDBOOK about the trucks. I latched onto a letter that indicated the development info on the truck was sent to Willow Run with an eye towards making the thing a production model which of course did not happen.
Grafting a pickup body onto a sedan and refinishing it was nothing new. One of the Milwaukee area K-F dealers put a dodge box (it said DODGE on the tailgate in a rather slapdash way into the back area of an early production Kaiser K-100 sedan (with the fuel pump at the rear). My uncle had a Rambler Classic wagon converted into a 2-door pick-up for one of the Milwaukee area AMC dealers c.1970. For many years after that dealer folded the thing became the "mascot" for the old Picklesville USA used car lot on Lisbon Ave, near the Lisbon/Appleton avenue split.
-
Hey, finding that letter is great! What date is on the letter? The date could match up with the build of the trucks and help their provenance? At least it proves that some were made with intent to try to get put into production. The new information is encouraging! Can't wait to see it all put together.
Much appreciated
-
You misunderstand me. The letter is a memo from Kaiser-Frazer Corporation Southern California Division that included photos of the Ernie Chavis truck. The writer suggested that K-F might want to consider producing the model including re-engineering the car platform for such a use. It was never seriously considered for production as far as I know. The suggestion was similar to the concept for the 4-door S-10 pickups of the 1990's; the original add-on was created by a small independent limo builder in Wisconsin that had a connection to a Madison area Chevy dealer. The dealership tried to sell the concept for fleet use including the old Wisconsin Electric Power Company but it never took off.
Ernie's truck was one of the best examples of the engineering required for the El Camino (Chevy) or Ranchero (Ford) types of the late 1950's and 1960's.
-
Yeah, you just said trucks, I didn't realize it was the Chavis. It was the one they said was from a wreck and done with a 1948. Thanks
-
Wow!!!
Good eye Jake!
"Vintage Trucks" magazine is doing an article on the truck!!!!
-
The Muntz trucks were KAISERS not FRAZERS
-
The documents that Gary Madeil (owner of the third Kaiser truck) has on these trucks is very convincing and they state that there were 3 trucks made and all were made different. The first one was a Manhattan Frazer 3 speed, the second one was a Kaiser special 4 speed, and the third truck was a Kaiser with a Pontiac straight eight with a Hydromatic. The third one is Gary's.
There were about 146,000 Kaiser AND Frazers built in 1947 and they were producing almost 500 cars a day Kaisers and Frazers. The Frazer trucks serial and body numbers are less than 2 days from coming off the line from Gary's Kaiser truck.
I have also talked to the previous owners of both trucks in question and the second owner of the Frazer truck when it was bought out of California and taken to Oregon in 1956. All stating that the trucks are legit.
I also have the original California title and it clearly states it is a 1947 Frazer Pickup.
There are many other things that points toward that there was in deed a Frazer pickup built.
I understand that there will be and is some controversy over these trucks because there is not a lot of information on them.
I am ALL EARS on any information or thoughts anyone has, PROS or CONS.
I would like to know the source that states they were only Kaisers trucks built.
Thanks for everyone's comments
-
In my opinion, take the vehicle for what it is. It is someone's creation, whether by Earl Muntz, or someone else, that was completed back when the car was near new and has survived all these years. It is a unique piece of history that should be preserved, whether in its current state or restored, and enjoyed by its current caretaker.
Who cares whether its a KAISER or a FRAZER. Its odd and its great! Thank you for saving this vehicle and we look forward to seeing it at a KFOCI meet someday!!
-
I agree completely
I am researching and posting all information found wether it right or wrong, in hopes of figuring out the history of these trucks.
I am also planning to take the truck on the road to display and show it in the near future.
Thanks Joefrazer
-
So far there is no proof that there were any cars modified by Muntz in 1947 or 1948 but probably twenty made from wrecks and well used cars by dealers, body shops and individuals over the years and some were well done. Please do not promote your Frazer as a Muntz built truck until you have proof as that incorrect rumor about Muntz built trucks needs to be laid to rest. All there is at this time are opinions and no proof whatsoever.
-
I will post the documentation that Gary has, it is very convincing! So there is some documentation about trucks commissioned by Muntz
Stay tuned!!
-
Also, as I said before, I am not saying that this truck was in fact commissioned by Muntz!
I am just stating what I have been told by you guys and many other knowledgable people and listening to everyone and then we all can come up with are own conclusion. I do know I am coming up with a lot of information and would like to share it with the forum for you guys to eat up. Lol
Anyway thanks for all the response
-
Earl Muntz ended his association with Kaiser-Frazer in late 1947 when the New York City and Los Angeles distributor franchises he had (as well as the retail dealerships) were bought back by Kaiser-Frazer.
Here is a copy of the memo Henry J. Kaiser Jr. sent to his brother, Edgar Kaiser, about the Chavis Motors pick-up. I was able to fix the folder the files were in. I was mistaken about the date of the document. It is 1948 not 1946. The dealership who had it built (not Chavis Motors) had it done in 1946 from a wrecked very early production Kaiser. The Muntz trucks had a different shaped cab
-
Thanks for posting the memo!
Muntz Car Company was the name of his car manufacturing company that made the "Muntz Jet" from 1950-1954, BUT it was also his name when he sold Kaiser Frazers, see picture. Muntz actually was working with Kurtis (who he bought car manufacturing co) in the late 40's.
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=350746571076
-
I am waiting on a few papers then I will post all the information I have found in the last 6 months of searching!
This should be interesting because some of the information goes against the grain!
-
Muntz Car Co. was at 1101 Figueroa St in Los Angeles and in January 1946 announced that he had 31 dealers in four counties in Southern California according to an ad in Auto News magazine. Jack's memo was from Henry Kaisers son who worked briefly at the Long Beach assembly plant. Muntz was probably gone from Kaiser Frazer by the time that the San Diego truck conversion was done. The sale of his K-F distributorships in 1948 no doubt enabled him to go into the television business.
-
Court documents show that Muntz sold out his K-F activities back to the factory before the end of calendar 1947. Joe Frazer engineered the sale claiming it was a leftover item missed when Graham-Paige sold its auto interests to Kaiser-Frazer earlier in that year. Frazer got a check from Muntz for 84,000 dollars & the court papers suggested that the dissident stockholders go after Frazer to recover the money for Kaiser-Frazer Corporation.
-
Thanks,
Now we are getting some information.
Thank you for the responses.
Very informative!
Everything helps
-
I posted pics of the truck earlier in this post. Is that the pics you are talking about jake?
This was taken from Earl Madman Muntz wikipedia
"An example of a matchbook ad for Muntz car lots in the 1950s" Note: it says car lots 1950s
And in this book http://epostscripts.net/writings/46.4post.pdf (as stated by you guys) it says that Earl bought into KF in 1947 and was out in 1948!
but what I don't get is there is a lot of articles that says Muntz had car lots in the late 40's and early 50's as it says in the wikipedia statement. I could probably find a half dozen other places that says the same BUT none of this really matters because if Muntz indeed commissioned these trucks, he did it with 1947 KF sedans in 1947.
On a bigger NOTE: in the Wkipedia "Muntz Car Company" at the very bottom in referances it clearly states
"that Earl Madman Muntz commissioned 3 KF promotional pickups from sedans to see if there was an interest for producing!!!"
More to come
I am having all my findings written up so I can just copy and past it on this Post post
-
C'mon now. One of the cornerstones of the Muntz empire before and after World War II was his dozens of used car lots spread across southern California! They ran long after he got out of Kaiser-Frazer dealer/distributor operations. Court records substantiate the fact that Muntz had sold his operations to Kaiser-Frazer Sales Corporation in November 1947 not 1948. (Pergament v. Frazer under "Muntz Franchise" in Judge Frank Picard's findings of fact as part of his rulings in the civil suit. Look it up in west law).
Next thing, maybe you'll start talking about Graham-Paige Frazer's built at the Graham plant on Warren Avenue in Detroit. Richard Langworth himself put that tidbit into KFOCI HANDBOOK Volume 1 which was released to the members in the late 1960's.
-
I'm a little slow but please teach me!
Yes, I probably don't want to go there, on the Graham Frazer thing. lol
-
Wikipedia should not be considered a factual source for any information. It is essentially a blog, or better yet, a stream that can be edited by anyone who thinks they know the facts. It's supposed to be checked by other readers but that is not always the case. Wikipedia is great reading but one should always take what's written with a grain of skepticism.
-
I was only trying say that, The "Muntz Car Company" was the name of Muntz's KF business in 1947 as it was in his "Muntz Iet" business from 1950 through 1954. Do you not agree?
-
As yo can see, it is very solid, (see underneath pic). Almost no rust and not any rust through! Always being in southern California and Bend area Oregon. The truck was in the same community that the Band leader Freddie Martins Famous custom Muntz jet was found. I have good reason the same collector, who owned a wrecker service had Freddie's and the 47 Frazer pickup in the same collection. I believe the guys name was Clark. More about this later.
Anyway I got off the subject.
More pictures coming
-
Arrows?
-
for some reason I can olny post one pic at a time????
-
another
-
more tomorrow
I have some of the fabrication of the grafted bed,
-
The early 1947 Kaisers and Frazers used hood props like those on your vehicle. They were later replaced by counterbalanced hood hinges. For many years, finding a hood prop car was a rarity, but lately more and more seem to be popping up.
Does the firewall mounted trim tag state Kaiser Frazer Corp or Graham Paige Motors?
-
The trim tag says Kaiser Frazer
This is what Gary madriel (the owner of the green Posie truck) has been talking about. How the some of the first Kaiser Frazers were shipped to Muntz Motor company in California and these two trucks talked about are very early production numbers and they are both just a few days apart! I have documentation to back up Muntz received some of the first KF cars! Ironic huh
-
Good eye, again Jake!
-
Oh my! Very nice. And the garage, spectacular!!!
-
A few pictures of the fabrication involved etc
-
There was no tailgate when I got it but it could have at one time. The floor boards are solid.
Originally the car was gunmetal gray over claypipe gray but it looks like after grafting the bed, it was painted horizon or teal blue with a dark blue interior! Pretty snazzy for 1947
-
Whoever did the work knew what they were doing. The fabrication is definitely not a back yard hack job. This unit was professionally built. Now, to figure who did it!
By the way, your California dealer tag has value. Do not give it away!
-
Hi...... At one time I inquired about your pick-up........ Seller said pick-up bed was plywood? At onetime was a flower car?
Dave F. #10113
-
Yes, he had no history except that it came from a man's estate auction when he died. He had a wrecker service and collected cars. I believe the Freedie Martin car was in his collection.
You are right the owner did not know what he had and guessed it a flower car! We talked about that on another post. The bed of the truck does have plywood overlay like most old trucks. Thanks for your comment!
-
Except for the very first Manhattans off the line, all 1947's will be Kaiser-Frazer tagged. Read more about Manhattans in the item that's part of KFOCI HANDBOOK Volume 6.0.
-
I have a photo of cars being loaded into a train car with a sign above saying "Kaiser-Frazer automobiles from Willow Run to Muntz Car Co. Los Angeles Calif."The car shown is a 1946 built Kaiser and one of the first on the West Coast. The Frazer Manhattan was announced around March 1947 and the early Manhattans still had the wide radiators and struts to hold up the hood. These cars were scarce and too valuable when new to convert into a truck until later years when they lost that value. My first Frazer was purchased in 1956 for $25.00 and by that time if the car ran good it could be a good prospect for conversion. Pick-up beds have been all steel since the late 1920's except for wood slats on the floor to make loading easier.
-
I like what you say about early Manhattans to valuable to cut up new!!! That's what I'm talking about, I have documents proveing this Manhattan is an early manhattan AND docs that is was made BEFORE 1950! So what your saying is it would have to be special to be built into a truck early on because of value of car and that is what happed to this truck!
Thanks again
-
Jake's photo was one of mine, taken in Lincoln, Nebraska in 1983. I was with Gene Meyer and we took their 1951 Frazer Manhattan Vagabond to a regional KFOCI meet there. That was my very first ride in a Kaiser-Frazer product. I've had the strange addiction ever since. Here is the original photo.
-
I like what you say about early Manhattans to valuable to cut up new!!! That's what I'm talking about, I have documents proveing this Manhattan is an early manhattan AND docs that is was made BEFORE 1950! So what your saying is it would have to be special to be built into a truck early on because of value of car and that is what happed to this truck!
Thanks again
I am glad that you have so much documentation regarding who modified your car and when it was done as that will be crucial to proving that it was done as you believe in 1947 by Earl Muntz and not many years later as is most probable. You say that it was built before 1950? That was three years after Muntz left his K-F investments and went on to other things. I believe that if Muntz had any cars converted into trucks which is very doubtful it would have to have been done in early 1947 which would have made them new cars. Show us this documentation.
-
Been on vaca
Ok,
First As pointed out my manhattan is a very early one by its serial number and the hood braces also confirms this. Second the "On Slaunt of Detroit" book says that the first Kaiser Frazer cars went to Muntz Car Company which probably puts this car in Muntz's distributing. Third the Betts Curtis plate in the Possie truck (Gary's #3) matches the plate that my truck had (you can see evidence where it was and it was in same spot as the Posie truck and the plate was put on the Horizon Blue not put on the Claypipe gray the sedan was originally. Fourth the Posie Truck and the Frazer truck came off the assembly line at the same time. I am waiting on Gary's permission to release his docs that puts his truck with Muntz. There is also the fact it was found in a high dollar collection with another famous Muntz Jet owned by the famous band leader Freddie Martin. Who Muntz customized Freddie's car several times (written about in several articles). The mysterious CA #1 dealer license plate found in the truck. The proffestional build and not a hack job.
Like I have said before, I am only stating what I have found, what I have been told, and the documentation of it being an early car and matching the Posie truck time period and the visual evidence with the plate and the Docs from the Possie truck, which I feel I need permission to post because the owner has been so kind. I Also have an original CA title that clearly states it's a 1947 pickup truck not a sedan as it started life. Which also proofs it was made into a truck as a new car!!!
I am still looking into other avenues and always welcome everyone's opinion!
-
Stay tuned! :P
You know what, sure it would be nice to have Muntz name on it but even if people are skeptical it still what it is! An early Manhattan professionally made into a pickup at an early age! And that my friends is really cool! And I dig the look (that's what started all this)
Peace Out
-
Hmmmm, sounds fun! Maybe to soon for me.
I am trying to get the truck mechanically in shape to drive but I am by no means going to change anything on the truck especially the patina that it has. I believe it it in complete original condition. But I do plan on showing it! That's why I want to drive it.
-
I should.
What do you think the best car show would be to show the truck, maybe the Kaiser Frazer national meet?????
I also am trying to get ahold of the Dave Clark family that owned the truck in the 50's from portland Oregon to maybe shed some more light on this subject. Portland is where TV Muntz lives today but I'm sure there is no connection there.
I am also working with the CA DMV hoping a name can found from the CA license plate that was with the truck.
There is also the man that sold the Posie truck to Gary that has some information I haven't seen yet.
-
Muntz Car Co. was at 1101 Figueroa St in Los Angeles and in January 1946 announced that he had 31 dealers in four counties in Southern California according to an ad in Auto News magazine. Jack's memo was from Henry Kaisers son who worked briefly at the Long Beach assembly plant.
in response to statement above
So there was a KF assembly plant in long beach Ca. That is where the trucks were supposedly made in Long Beach (see original article about the Posie truck). It is also the same area as Compton California that you guys say the trucks was made. HMMMM, It is very possible that one is the same and the trucks (mine and the Posie came from that assembly plant because they are just a few serial numbers apart.
Come on guys, this is too ironic along with everything else mentioned
If you go back and read everything that has been said on this post, it is hard not to believe the trucks were made early and went through Earl Muntz and that they were proposed for production. Please read
-
Well I guess it wasn't KF assembly plant but Ford. So Kaisers son worked for Ford?
Anyway this area seemed like a hub for this kinda thing.
-
In the beginning of this post club members were talking about the Muntz trucks and now everyone is sayin they don't exist!
Untill Gary with the Posie truck comes forward with his info, here is what we know.
The two trucks mentioned are without a doubt built very early (probably before 1948)
The Frazer is a very very early Manhattan (by the serial # and hood struts)
The Kaiser Truck and the Frazer truck came off the factory line at the same time ( by the serial numbers being the same week)
Earl Muntz received the first Kaiser Frazer cars to be sold, so these two trucks went through his distributorship or hands
The Frazer has a original Southern California title stating it IS a 1947 Frazer PICKUP (says right on the 1950 issued title)
The Kaiser Frazer Quarterly has mentioned that there was trucks that were thought to have Muntz providence, clear back in a 1994 publication and talked about for 30 years or more
Everyone knew that the truck in GA ( that Ray Fraizer had) claimed Muntz way back in the day and this truck is now Gary's Posie truck and The Frazer truck came off the factory line at the same time
Both trucks have similar builds
The owner of the Frazer truck in the 50's claims it was a very SPECIALl build in southern California but wasn't sure by whom
The build is very very Professional
and all the Mickey Mouse stuff like
Being found in Oregon with the Freddie Martin Muntz Jet
The Muntz family resides in the same area in Oregon
The 1947 #1 California Dealer tag found in the truck
The 1950 time magazine found in the truck stuffed in the hood braces that has a picture and article about Muntz in it, A story about Henry Kaiser, A Muntz TV ad, and a Muntz Jet Ad. (I know this is silly but it is there and is still there)
And like I said before: It is a very special build, an early Manhattan, a cool ride, and has a special place in our history of KF
It is also so original with it's dust, dirt and Patina, who wouldn't like it except someone that is dead or jealous!
-
Hopefully for the last time we ask you for one shred of evidence that Earl Muntz ever assembled any cars. Old rumors and opinions by un-informed sources do not count. Where is your source that you claim that your car was made in Long Beach CA. The Long Beach plant was open from Oct. 1949 thru Jan. 1951 and all they did is assemble new cars, they never built any. All 1947-1948 Kaisers and Frazers were built in Willow Run MI. Earl Muntz received cars from Willow Run as a distributor and dealer in 1946 and 1947 in Los Angeles, CA. If you register a vehicle in California the verifier will determine the body style by visual inspection. All cars registered in CA. before 1950 were registered by the motor number and not the serial number. I have been a CA. vehicle dealer for over fifty years and have registered many thousands of vehicles. Kaiser Ambulances and limos and taxi conversions are documented and certainly many Kaisers were converted into pickup trucks over the years. Yours was nicely done but the green hot rod no longer exists as an original Kaiser. Enjoy your car and it will always be welcome at Kaiser-Frazer events as a customized car. If you ever come up with any real evidence from Mr. Muntz's history we will reconsider its place in the Kaiser Frazer world. After almost seventy years no one has ever documented that Earl Muntz ever built or customized any Kaisers or Frazers. I'm sure now that the rumor started when one was customized into a truck by a dealer in San Diego and then sold to the dealer near Long Beach who was a dealer when Muntz had his distributorship in Los Angeles. See pictures of this nice truck earlier in this post.
-
Thank You, and thank you for some more information.
I agree the green Posie truck was ruined when hot rodded!
-
Just to repeat what I know personally about the Posie/Ray Frazier/Ga truck, nothing documented, mostly anecdotal:
1. There was a one-page article about the truck in an old car hobby magazine, perhaps Cars & Parts in the 1970's or early 1980's stating the car had a Pontiac straight 8 and was built by Muntz. It had several pictures of the truck, one I remember was from the rear with "KAISER" on the tailgate.
2. It was owned for quite some time by Jim Davies of East Point, GA. I've been told that he fostered the Muntz connection, but I never met him and I might be repeating rumors.
3. I spent a lot of time with John Parker in the 1980's at his shop in Fullerton, CA. The subject of this truck came up and he told me that he examined this truck once and recognized a weld underneath that was done by him - WHEN THE TRUCK WAS STILL A 4-DOOR SEDAN. I do not remember the time frame from when John found the weld, but he was not in Southern California until at least the late 1950's and probably would not have seen the car before that time. I believe he saw it as a truck at a Kaiser Meet (perhaps the Atlanta National Meet in 1979).
4. It went thru an auction here in GA (early 1990's) several years after Jim died. I worked the auction for the auction company and got to examine the truck closely. It was white at the time and was fairly well executed during the conversion to a truck. It also sported chrome wire wheels with very thick spokes.
5. Several years later, Ray Frazier owned it.
So this particular truck, in my estimation, was not built by Muntz. Perhaps it was built by Jim Davies or maybe he bought it already converted, I don't know. I have to admit that I really liked this truck when I saw it at the auction and would really like to own it. I hope Mr. Posie enjoys it during his ownership.
I have no knowledge of the other trucks, so cannot confirm or deny their authenticity.
-
Looks like Kaiser imprinted (raised letters) on the tailgate and a state State Farm sticker on the bumper.
Jake as I said before good eye!
Could or would a hack job have that on there or done like that? Probably not!at e the third lost Muntz truck!!! Lol
-
If it's a four speed, west be on to something. One of you guys needs to find the article in the Qaurterly about this truck to see what the say about it.
Very cool stuff Jake!
-
Who owns the truck now?
Serial and body number would be very interesting!
We all just considered this truck a home built. Maybe not!
-
What you're looking at on the tailgate is trunk script from a 1947/48 Kaiser.
-
Can you show me a picture of one? Not familiar with them!
-
You mean a chrome script applied, like my Manhattan on the front fender. Would like to see better picture because it sure looks raised up in the metal like on a lot of old pickup tailgates.
-
That would have to be a 1948 emblem as the '47's had individual letters. Just more indication that this car was modified long after Muntz left the scene. There is no such thing as a Muntz built truck!
-
If theirs no proof Muntz made them, then there is no proof he didn't! ;) It Sure is talked about a lot and a a great concept!
Thanks for your opinion!
-
Here's a picture of the script as placed on a 1948 Kaiser.
-
The picture of the old blue truck isn't very good but really looks a little different.
Thanks for the pic. I googled it earlier
-
Boy, we sure have a lot of "experts" talking about this. Let me chime back in 1 more time
I refer readers of this to KFOCI HANDBOOK. There is a section in it about the Long Beach CA assembly plant where cars were put together (assembled, built, whatever you want to call it) from body shells, assemblies and certain items out of Willow Run as well as component parts procured from West Coast suppliers. The item also identifies what months the plant operated as it sat idle for over 3 years before the first assembled cars came out of it in September 1949. It was closed October-December 1949 and February-March 1950. This section will also identify the simple ways that a Long Beach CA assembled K-F product (Kaisers and 1951 Frazers only, no HJ's) can be identified compared to cars built at Willow Run, finished at Jackson MI or assembled at Portland Oregon's assembly plant.
The Handbook is a CD and you get it as a perk for being a member of KFOCI with your new member information. The current release version (Version 5.0) has around 1,000 pages of information on cars, company, and all kinds of other K-F or Willys related materials. The item is not available for sale; also it should not be copied.
The Long Beach facility was for a time also the home of the Southern California Division of Kaiser-Frazer Corporation. This unit of K-F was one of several west coast based Kaiser interests that Henry J. Kaiser's son, Henry J. Kaiser Jr. ran.
When K-F vacated the Long Beach facility, it ended up back in the plane business. My contact at Boeing is not sure, but the building itself was either torn down for the Seal Point Industrial Park or is among the buildings Boeing still uses (some of the old Douglas buildings were acquired by Boeing & they build aircraft there, at least until September 2015). One of the few pictures of the building that survived is in the Handbook item.
Earl Muntz may have turned out 1 of the 3 trucks credited to his Los Angeles operation. The one I posted pictures of earlier is identified by HJK Jr. in his 1948 memo as produced by a body shop for the original K-F dealer in Long Beach. A number of K-F dealers & distributors made pick-ups out of 4-door sedans (or later on, Travelers) using various degrees of complexity (one of the Milwaukee dealers just cut up the sedan body, locked the back doors and dropped a prewar Dodge pick-up bed on the chassis).
-
Great info!
Thanks
-
You guys have been helpful to say the least!
I have joined the club. Does the Handbook follow or do I gave to order it?
Thanks again
See you at a meet coming soon
-
Oh my!
You have got to be kidding
As I told you before I have documentation the truck was made early as a new car!!!
-
About the club, when your membership app is processed, you will receive in the mail a calendar, Quarterly magazine , and a handbook on CD. Packages are sent once a month, usually within a week after the 15th.
About your 47 Frazer pickup. I'm not typically one to chime in with a strong opinion...I'd rather play middle of the road due to my position within the club...but at this time I have to agree with the others. You have a rare machine that was assembled by someone other than Kaiser-Frazer. It could have been a dealer, or it could have been a body shop talented in this kind of work, but it was not done at the factory, or with the factory's blessing.
I've seen a few of this sort of "truck" and some are better assembled than others. From the pictures I've seen of your pickup, it's one of the better ones. But that again, does not mean Muntz or anyone under his sphere of influence put it together.
So, once and for all, please provide concrete documentation of this vehicle's assembly as a pickup or let's all put this topic to rest and enjoy it for what it is - a rare and unusual vehicle that was once, and is again, someone's pride and joy.
I encourage you to get the vehicle roadworthy and bring it to a KF meet. I guarantee you'll be the center of attention.
-
The Posie truck before it was modified
-
It looks like the Kaiser pickup in the pictures posted by powell56 uses a 1957 Ford pickup bed. Is this the pickup bed it has always had?
Here is a pic of a '57 Ford:
(http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/1950-1959-ford-trucks-37.jpg)
-
I've been reading and researching other articles about these trucks and I happened upon this post. This is indeed very interesting (and heated) and seems to me that there is something to this. I am quite a hard sale on most things and especially on this subject, but with all the recent as well as past discussions about these trucks, there may be some merit here but would have to see documentation whatever it may be, including the anecdotes given by the man that owns the truck in question. I am very interested in this truck and it's history.
Would it be for sale? If so, is there a way to contact you so that I may inspect the truck and it's documentation?
Kind regards,
Francois
-
Great minds think alike!
I will send you a private message. Thanks for your interest!
-
kaiserfrazerlibrary
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1988
KFOCI Historian
AOL Instant Messenger - none Yahoo Instant Messenger - none
View Profile Email
Re: Monthly President's Message
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2015, 03:43:02 AM »
There have been isolated cases of surviving vehicles (not just K-F or Jeep product) titled in a year other than the model year of the vehicle. I have never dug into the matter but there appears to have been laws on the books of a few states (one of them Washington State?) where a new, untitled vehicle (with the Certificate of Origin of a New Vehicle from the factory) was first titled the year the car was sold new. With the advent of the new VIN number system decades ago, that practice had to end and it did.
The original California title for this truck says that it is a 1950 Frazer pickup but we all know by its look that it is a 1947 Sedan and not a 1950 pickup. This is very interesting!
I am going to post a picture of its data plate and its firewall. The truck was repainted after the conversion to claypipe gray. You can clearly see the claypipe gray overspray on the data plate. You can also see the original color under the plate. Now for the kicker! On the firewall there is a rusted scratching that clearly says "aligned 11/3/47.
I will post picture when I get back to my computer next Wednesday.
I never noticed this before and the man (Francois) that has been looking at the truck pointed this out to me. This puts the build or conversion in 1947! This is just another reason I believe the truck was built in 1947,
-
The Posie truck before it was modified
This is the truck that I was talking about in an earlier post. The late John Parker had remembered welding underneath it when it was still a car. It was owned by the late Jim Davies and resided in Georgia for many years.
-
As promised
The first photo is of my firewall data plate. You can clearly see that the original color (gunmetal gray) behind plate and that the plate and firewall was painted claypipe gray. This was done after it was modified into a pickup.
The second photo is the firewall that has been painted the claypipe gray and you can clearly see it was scratched into the paint (rust and all) and says "ALIGN 11-24-47"
also remember this is a very early Manhattan
There is no doubt this truck was made as a new sedan!!
-
Opps!
Here's the pics
-
Funny thing
ALIGNED is misspelled ALINED
lol
-
The first photo is of my firewall data plate. You can clearly see that the original color (gunmetal gray) behind plate and that the plate and firewall was painted claypipe gray. This was done after it was modified into a pickup.
The second photo is the firewall that has been painted the claypipe gray and you can clearly see it was scratched into the paint (rust and all) and says "ALIGNED 11-24-47"
-
1947 Frazer Manhattan Promotional Pickup Truck
-
Thanks Jake, but I have all four original rims.
I probably won't do anything to the finish not even clear. I want to leave it in its found condition.
I found the Betts Curtis ID tag that shows they made these trucks. I will post a pic. I also found a great article from the California Library system on microfilm!!!!
-
Real Cool!
Thanks Jake
The picture of the truck looks like the the blue one that was posted earlier.
-
They said January or February 2015 in "Vintage Trucks"
But it suppose to be in "Street trucks" next month, July or August issue!
Thanks for your support.
The man that came and looked at the truck and its documents (Francios) made me an offer on the truck but I couldnt sell it! He thought the build was professional and liked the documents I have found for it. He also believes the truck was built in 1947 and has a connection to "Betts Curtis" and possibly "Muntz"! Maybe someday I will sell it but for now I'm having way to much fun with it!!!
I'm looking forward to meeting KF people (you guys) at some meet soon with my truck. I also want to dig deeper into its history and confirm some of my findings!
-
Hmmmm. How old are these photos?
Any other info on it?
-
http://youtu.be/orrgEOmDYrw
-
http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/1210cct-1947-kaiser-truck/#.VXbqgVaEkq0.mailto
-
Is there a picture of this truck, as purchased, before Posies worked it over?
Gary.
-
Yes, back on page 10 of this post!
-
http://kfclub.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6766.0;attach=8927
-
Hello Again,
Just wanted everybody on this forum to know that I have inspected the truck of 1947Frazer. I have also looked at all of his documents. I personally believe that this truck was professionally built by Betts Curtis of Long Beach, CA in 1947. The serial number is within a couples days of the Posie Truck, who claims it was built by Earl Muntz. There are too many coincidences for all of this to be made up. Unfortunetly I was unable to purchase the truck. However, I just thought this club should know.
Regards,
Francois
-
Is there a picture of this truck, as purchased, before Posies worked it over?
Gary.
Is there a picture of Posie's truck just after its "original" modification into a pickup -- versus the one that shows the truck with a circa 1957 Ford pickup bed?
-
Not that I know of!
Story I got, it was hit by a train on the rear end and the ford looking bed was put on????
-
I was also told that the truck started life as a unibody like mine and the newer Posie truck!
-
Jake
You are very watchful, you should be in the KF research department!
-
I just noticed, this post has over 10,000 views!! WOW!
Just shows it is very interesting subject, to say the least
-
That's sweet!
-
This is weird! I don't know who made this Facebook page!!!
https://m.facebook.com/1947Frazer?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F1947Frazer
-
It even says "my" car. Maybe somebody I know but didn't tell me????
-
Thanks for asking!
I have been trying to get it running with as little new parts as possible (plugs, wires, cap, fresh oil, etc)
I believe that's called "Muntzing" Lol
Also cleaning up original rims for new tires. But that's about it.
I have showed the truck to a couple editors, had a couple photo shoots, and a couple of guys that want to buy it but I'm not willing to sell!
-
The article from Los Angeles times in 1968 called " Muntz spells Munz" proved very interesting!!!
-
I do need 4 KF dog dish hubcaps for 1947. I wonder if Rudy Phillips has any? I think someone posted his number earlier???
-
I may have four with lots of patina that would match the rest of the truck. How condition do you want the caps to be in?
-
There were three styles of cap used on the 1947 cars. The earliest had either KAISER or FRAZER embossed and worked only with wheels that did not have the spring clip cap retainers. We call them "knobby wheels". A later version of the same cap was used but was plain - without the lettering. The third style was used with wheels that has the spring clip retainer. The first two styles do not interchange with the third.
-
Can you post picture of caps you have for sale?
Thanks for the info on the three types
-
Patina on caps is fine! How much? And post picture if possible
-
The hub caps have dents and scratches but they have not been ran up against a curb. I will attempt to post a picture.
-
Maybe this time I can get a picture of the front sides posted.
-
There were three styles of cap used on the 1947 cars. The earliest had either KAISER or FRAZER embossed and worked only with wheels that did not have the spring clip cap retainers. We call them "knobby wheels". A later version of the same cap was used but was plain - without the lettering. The third style was used with wheels that has the spring clip retainer. The first two styles do not interchange with the third.
There are also caps with the embossed lettering that fit only on the later wheels with clips. I have a NOS set and they won't work on my GP Frazer with the knobs on the wheels.
-
The pictured caps are the last style made available. They were also used on the 48 Kaiser and Frazer cars.
And, Gordie is correct, there are actually four styles used. I found a rather beat up later cap with lettering in a box yesterday while looking for something else.
-
I will try and post a picture of my wheels to see which cap works. They are mid season of 1947 when the Manhattan came out. Remember my truck is a early Manhattan! Thanks for the information!
-
Will the caps pictured fit my wheels? How much do you want for them?
-
These caps came off of a car that has the spring clips on the wheel to hold them on.
-
Oh my! That's cool,
-
I would like to see it sometime!
-
Sorry, I already proved it was built in 47!
-
Had a great show at the low rider capital of the world! People really liked truck because it rides so low!
Had a man offer $8500! Didn't take it!
The article that came out on the truck was short but sweeeet! I'll post a picture of it
-
)
-
Hey Jake,
Well I only got to go to one car show this summer but the truck was a big hit!
It is coming out in the magazine I mentioned in January or February.
I haven't got it running yet but still plan to.
The man that made me that offer to buy the truck keeps badgering me to sell to him but I am holding out because I think the truck is the "King of Cool"
I found an article from the micro film from the Southern California library system, where it talks about all the many things the Entrapenure Muntz did in his lifetime. Many failures but many successful business adventures and one being that he worked on the development of a car that could be used like a truck!
Take care
-
Really cool!
I like the old service vehicles!
Cool cool cool
-
What is the grill on this '52 pickup? It doesn't look like a Kaiser grill.
John B.
-
The yellow and orange Kaiser pickup on eBay didn't sell! I think it's a very cool ride with great patina! It was a shop truck back in the day.
-
I just noticed that this post has almost 20,000 views! I think that's a record for the forum.
-
Henry Kaiser Jr. was the manager of the K-F plant in Long Beach up until 1949. I recently managed to buy a memo from Henry Kaiser Jr. to his brother Edgar, the President of Kaiser Frazer Corp in Willow Run, telling him about how a former K-F dealer in San Diego made a pickup truck out of a wrecked Kaiser in 1948 and that it was presently owned by a dealer in Downey CA. The memo wanted Edgar to see how a Kaiser pickup would look. The memo was sent with seven professionally made photos of the truck. That certainly indicates that Kaiser had no information about the trucks until 1948 when the memo was sent. Many Kaisers and Frazers were made into pickups and convertibles over the years and they are certainly interesting.
-
Yes, I read in "Old Rides" that one you just described was made from a wreck!
Really cool truck and history!
Jake, you are right, cool picture, but I'm bias
-
Got the motor turning over! Lacking spark!
Getting closer, can't wait to drive through town!
-
Brakes working with better tires. Still want to put original rims on it.
I'm also still looking for original 47 caps, in very user condition!
-
Man I love that car/truck! Wish it wasn't so far away from me or I may consider it! The old hand painted advertisement is kook!
Why would you have to delete from the form? It's got a good place here!
-
Very nice!
It does resemble the Kaiser that was in Hot Rod Newsletter.
I'm still looking for hub caps that have patina.
Anyone on here have or know of any please contact me.
-
I have some 1949 Kaiser small caps with lots of patina (called shelf exposure). These are what I call "transportation hubcaps" as they will cover the hub of the wheel, but don't look anywhere near pristine (but the chrome is not peeling off).
-
Free ads in Newsletter
-
Will the 49 fit the 47? I've heard that there are two different caps for 47 and I'm not sure which ones I need. Any help would be nice. How much for your caps?
I'm almost certain I have the original wheels.
Thanks for the quick response!
-
If your car has spring clips on the rim then you can use caps from a 1949 Kaiser or Frazer. If your car does not have the clips, then you're limited to the early production "knobby" style cap. They're so-called because the rim has knobs, or bumps on it that hold the cap in place.
-
The article in the Newspaper that was found in the California library system, connected the pickip with the collector out of Oregon who was gracious enough to come forward about the birthplace and conception of the pickup!
-
Ok, you have us interested with the first page..............can you post the rest of the pages? ;)
-
Coming soon
Sorry
-
thank you
-
opps
lets try this again
-
great picture Jake!!!
-
We were up in PA and went by the ACCA Museum and saw Gary's Kaiser Pickup Truck (Posie)(green).
Even though I feel they ruined it by customizing it from it's originality, It was awesome to see it and to learn more about its origin and to see it's provenance. Truly a great piece of History as is the Frazer Pickup shown in the article above!
-
Looks a lot like a pickup!
http://m.ebay.com/itm/222270440251?_mwBanner=1&ul_noapp=true
-
Have you attended a KF meet with/without your car? If not, you owe it to yourself to see what the organization is all about by joining us at a show. The club has members of all flavors, from folks who've just become interested in KF, to those who bought the car if not new, then when they were young previously enjoyed cars.
With this mix comes a knowledge base that far exceeds what you will encounter on this forum, only because of the sheer number of people. We have nearly 1200 members around the globe who enjoy the cars and when an odd one appears, you will have those who just have to know more about it. And what better way to do it than to bring it to a meet. So, I encourage you to give a meet a try...I'm sure your car will leave them scratching their heads!
-
Thanks for the private messages and interest in seeing the article again about the 1947 Frazer Manhattan Pickup!
-
Hmmm........at least one post on this thread page has disappeared. :o
-
:)
HR is wanting to put the two of the three known KF trucks (Mine and Gary's) in a story, coming soon.!..
Thanks for all the kind words.!..
-
The 1947 Frazer Manhattan Promotional concept pickup truck.!..
-
I took these two pics sometime in the 1980's. Cannot remember where or when, but the junkyard/storage yard was somewhere in Southern California, more than likely north of Los Angeles, maybe towards Bakersfield or Santa Barbara. I do not know the truck's story either. Is this the same one this thread is about?
-
That doesn't look like it is the same truck. The back window is larger and the rear end is rounded instead of square but none the less a cool picture and truck!
It may be the one that Jake has posted several times
Maybe it's the third concept pickup supposedly commissioned by Earl Madman Muntz! lol
-
I can see the differences after looking back at pictures. thanks Jake
If anybody needs more information on the three promotional Kaiser and Frazer pickup trucks commissioned by Madman Muntz, there is a great display all about the trucks, their history, and documentation, now at the ACCA Museum in Pa.
I will post pics of the display
-
Look closely at the pictures and you'll see that the car is actually a 49/50, not a 47/48. Looking thru the back window you can see that it's a Kaiser based on the clock being on the passenger side.
-
The tiny bit of the grille that you can see confirms that it's a 49-50 Kaiser based truck.
I seem to remember a pic of one in an old quarterly, maybe from the late '60's or the '70's. Had a round logo on the doors, I think.
-
C'mon, Jake, where was the pic taken who are the people and who owns the vehicles? Never post a pic without describing the details.
-
Cool cool
New truck
1959 napco 4x4 Scotsman Studebaker pickup
Only 9 made
It sets beside my 1947 Frazer Manhattan pickup
-
FYI
The 1947 Frazer pickup is going back home to southern sunny California to a new owner that is gong to display it as is with all its patina/Character. Full circle!
The newest article in "Trucks" did a fantastic job on the new owner and its plans for the truck.
-
Took me awhile but I read all of the comments. I agree with Gordie, but reluctantly. I never did see any posting, whether a photo or just a# - of the VIN's of the 2 supposed early cars made into trucks.
There is some reference above, which certainly can NOT be true - that the Posie built hot rod is at the AACA Museum? No way!
I also find it interesting that "Frankies Frazer" was quite active and proclaimed that he had sold a car for $125,000 but did not even attempt a modest correction of the non stock wheel set or anything. The same photos he posts are used by the supposed new owner.
While I get that it was "Frankies" car and he can do whatever he wants, the truck deserves restoration as a curiosity if nothing else.
In my opinion, which as Gordie notes is all we have - this is certainly an early non GP (?) Frazer that was very purposely converted into a truck. IF the Posie car has a close to it VIN, and if the original workmanship is similar, then I think they were done together.
Note I did not say done by Muntz. But together. It is not out of the realm since KF went on to produce the Traveler/Vagabond. Hudson and maybe Studebaker had car based trucks. Chevy and GMC had crossover Suburbans. This was in the zeitgeist of the time.
But it is troubling that so many folks have linked these to Muntz without documentation. The Posie car is gone forever. If it truly was 1 of 3 then the owner did a disservice to the entire collector car hobby by forever converting it to a Hot Rod. There are thousands of slabsider KF's out there still, and we know the owner and Posie spent well north of $200,000 on this creation.
They could have used the Kaiser truck as a template and simply purchased a slab sider for $500 and done the same thing.
One thing that bothers me is I have never seen the original pre hot rodded photo set of the Posie car. Did it have a Pontiac straight 8 and automatic? Or not?
Frankiesfrazer kept those details out, sometimes saying he did not have permission to post. Maybe it is in another post.
In any case, "Frankie" had had enough of the "supercool" Frazer pickup and sold it, at a modest price I guess, and the new owner is flipping it again, but not including any new photos. Or did Frankie not really sell it and the ebay seller is Frankie?
If it is on the west coast again, then I don't have the $2000 to $2500 it would cost to haul it back to the Midwest.
if I could buy it at a "normal" project car price, I would restore the car/truck to it's original grey paint, ditto on the upholstery and everything, except it would be a clearly converted truck. As Jim and others have noted in this thread there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
It was repeated over and over again that this was common. Once a restoration was underway, there might be more clues to the originality of the truck conversion. It is interesting to note the 1st title being 1950-ish but that does not tell me it was created in 1947, early 1948 and used by the dealer.
if it was sold to an individual, then the title would be earlier. Gordie, do you know if they had MSO's back in 1947? I would assume they did and that was the 1st "title" or build document. That would have been turned in when the title was issued in 1950.
That MSO is certainly long gone, archived maybe for a few years by California, but certainly destroyed at some point.
Frankie can claim all he wants that he wanted to keep the car as he found it, it was (and maybe still is) his car. But the bottom line is no one wants to truly restore the car, and spend the serious cash to do so.
As far as the ebay ad placed in the Ford section, ebay has long not provided a good placement option for KF. Many get placed in odd spots.
Who buys this car? That's a good question. Most KFOCI members are choke full of projects and typically don't take on restorations any more. It could go to a Posie - like customer who hot rods it since as with that car, many hot rodders are looking for the odd car to get away from fat fendered Chevys and Fords which are ubiquitous.
And for them, $4000 is chump change.
Is this truck a part of KF history? If it was judicially restored, and we actually had a museum, would it be allowed to placed on display?
-
Very sad that after the facts and documentation, people reject it. Really doesn’t help the club to denie facts that were found. It’s just part of history and should be recognized
-
All the K-F pick-up trucks I have seen (for real or photos) were production sedans cut up and either had an existing pickup bed grafted in (like the early production 1947 Kaiser Special cut up and given a prewar Dodge pick-up bed with a DODGE tailgate) started out as wrecked automobiles. The closest any factory-built truck came to existing would have been based on the one pictured here. Attached with the photos is a memo from Henry J. Kaiser Jr (who ran Kaiser-Frazer's Southern California Division which included the Long Beach CA assembly plant) to his older brother Edger Fossburg Kaiser (that's the "F" in his name; Fossburg was Bess Kaiser's maiden name) that suggested Kaiser-Frazer look at the possibility of building these on the production line. As it was back in 1946 when the photos and memo went back east, it was kind of a useless exercise.
-
I've read all thru this thread and still haven't seen any real documentation! It really gets me that all these magazines and museums and whatever just print what they want or what they're told by a wishful owner, builder or seller. Documentation is everything, especially nowadays! It sure seems to me that there is no REAL proof that this was anything but a car someone made into a 'pickup' because they could. I don't see where the club is denying facts because I don't see any facts...it is a piece of history but it is just a story until I see proof.
-
Similar to the urban legend about Dutch Darrin dropping Caddy V8's in a dozen or so cars.
It must be true since every car rag in the 50's had an article about them.
FAKE NEWS!!
-
It’s Back!
-
I guess. The new owner still won’t use updated photos
-
He is pulling the motor in the kaiser pickup from York NE..
It sat to long.. I just talk to him.. I going to loan him my engine stand... this summer...