Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Kaiser Forum => Topic started by: shadetree77 on February 26, 2015, 04:07:06 AM
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Finally got the engine put back together today. Now it won't start. It won't even TRY. The starter turns the engine over just fine. Good and strong now. It's not kicking out anymore. But the engine will not even BEGIN to catch. It's getting fuel and spark. I've tried several different coils including a known good one.
I'm starting to think it's a timing issue. I put a new timing chain on it. I did just like the manual said making sure to have a certain number of links between the two marks on the the sprockets. Anyone have some tips for me on how to make sure the timing is in the ballpark without a timing light? From what I understand the pointer on the engine should be pointing to 4 degrees before TDC when the distributor rotor is pointing AT the number 1 cylinder position. Is this correct? How can I make sure the number 1 piston is at the top of the compression stroke?
I'm open to any other suggestions as well. A few more symptoms I noticed which may or may not be related: When I put my hand over the carb. while the engine is rotating I feel air pushing OUT. I noticed some bubbles of gas around some of the carb gaskets too as if it's having air pushed through it. I thought a carb was supposed to always pull IN while the engine is rotating? Also after I try to start the engine for a minute or so I can smell raw gas under the hood. Unburned gas in the cylinders?
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Be aware the rotor turns COUNTER-clockwise. Are the plug wires in the correct sequence for counter-clockwise rotation? It's often assumed that they should be clockwise and they get installed that way and the engine won't start. That's the first check I would make.
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Thanks for the suggestion Fid but I checked the plug wires twice and they look correct. I used the install guide I got from the fellow who sells the repro. plug sets (can't think of his name right now) and also compared that to pictures I took of the wires when it ran before. Number 1 plug is first one to the left of the front distributor cap hold down. The rest are hooked up just like it shows in his guide and according to firing order.
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Pull the distributor off the head and remove the adapter shaft from the block (that's the long shaft that connects the distributor to the oil pump. Reinstall the shaft 180 degrees opposite of how it was originally installed. Reinstall the distributor, you'll need to turn the rotor 180 degrees as well. Try to start the engine.
Let us know what happens.
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I agree with Joefrazer, it sounds as though you are 180 degrees out.
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That's what I was thinking too. I lined the distributor rotor up with the number one plug position 4 or 5 times in a row and marked the pulley just to see where it was at in relation to where it SHOULD be. It appears to be on the exact opposite side of where the marks are. That would seem to indicate 180 degrees out. But I did not know that you could turn the shaft like that without turning the distributor itself. I've never taken a distributor out. I will definitely give that a try soon and I'll let you know what happens. You might have just saved me from having to take that timing chain off again which is something I was NOT looking forward to. Thank you!!
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Update. Did exactly what was suggested. Took distributor off, removed shaft, rotated it 180, rotated rotor 180 to match, put back together, and.....nothing. Condition is the same. I do have a question though. Was I supposed to have the timing marks lined up or anything when I rotated the shaft? Would that have made a difference as to where it ended up?
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No, there was no need to line up the timing marks.
Just to be sure - all of the following check out OK:
1. The carburetor is delivering fuel to the engine
2. There is 6V at both coil posts with the key ON
3. There is spark at the points with the key ON
4. Engine compression is good - at least 110 lbs
5. When the timing pointer is at TDC (or close to it) with the distributor rotor pointing to cylinder #1, both the intake and exhaust valves are closed
I would reset the distributor to its previous position (rotate the adapter shaft 180 back to where it was) and check everything one more time. Have you tried pulling a spark plug to see if it fires when the engine is cranked?
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Sounds like a plan. I put the distributor back to its original position. I'll begin checking off things on the list soon. I need to go get a compression tester tomorrow. But, before I came in just now I used a piece of wire down the spark plug hole to determine when the piston was coming up. I believe that I found TDC because when the cylinder is all the way up the pointer is on the correct timing mark. BUT, when this happens the distributor rotor is NOT pointing to number 1 cylinder. I know it can point opposite of number one if you're not on the compression stroke but this is not the case. It doesn't point to number 1 at all no matter what stroke it's on. This is what is leading me to believe there was a mistake of some sort on the timing chain installation. I'm assuming if this is the case, the only way to fix it would be to take the timing chain back off and try to line it up correctly. Thoughts?
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I agree. You may have to revisit the chain installation.
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That's what I was afraid of. Sigh....maybe things will go a bit faster this time now that I know the ins and outs of the job. I ordered a new gasket for the cover. Wow...I am not looking forward to doing that all over again. I went ahead and completed all the checks on the list given above with the exception of the compression test. I need to buy a compression tester. Here are the results:
1. Carb. is doing its job. Strong squirts of fuel from the jets when the pedal is depressed.
2. Verified 6V at both sides of coil with key on.
3. Blue/white sparks at points when trying to start car.
4. N/A (No compression tester)
5. I can't do this one as I have already put the tappet cover back on and can't see the valves through the tiny spark plug hole. Did use a piece of wire to find TDC and rotor will NOT line up with number 1 cylinder.
6. Pulled a plug and it does fire with blue/white spark.
7. Also removed each wire and checked for spark. Got blue/white spark on all plug wires.
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Shadetree77, I can certainly associate with your problem and will follow this thread in hopes you get the engine running. Just sincerely hope you find a resolution. Some folks here may recall my problem with a '51 Fraser hardtop dating back to 2009-2013 where everything I have seen on this thread was checked, rechecked, plus all the little basics as well as timing chain, distributor rebuilt, but the car never ran again after the blown head gasket in December 2012 and we just parked it in March 2013 after multiple efforts to get it running.
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The distributor turns at half crankshaft speed. The #1 piston comes up at the end of the exhaust stroke and once again at the end of the compression stroke. The spark plug fires at top dead center of the compression stroke. Disconnect the coil wire. Take out the #1 spark plug. Remove the distributor cap. Put your finger firmly over the #1 plug hole. Have an assistant crank the starter four or five turns. You should feel both suction and pressure as it turns over. The pressure should push your finger away. The pressure should come as the rotor points to #1. The air pumping out of the carburator is not a good sign. The timing chain could be on wrong or you could have valves stuck open or adjusted too tight. A compression test would be a big help. Good uniform compression would rule out valve problems. Uniform low compression could be the chain. Hope this helps.
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The distributor turns at half crankshaft speed. The #1 piston comes up at the end of the exhaust stroke and once again at the end of the compression stroke. The spark plug fires at top dead center of the compression stroke. Disconnect the coil wire. Take out the #1 spark plug. Remove the distributor cap. Put your finger firmly over the #1 plug hole. Have an assistant crank the starter four or five turns. You should feel both suction and pressure as it turns over. The pressure should push your finger away. The pressure should come as the rotor points to #1. The air pumping out of the carburator is not a good sign. The timing chain could be on wrong or you could have valves stuck open or adjusted too tight. A compression test would be a big help. Good uniform compression would rule out valve problems. Uniform low compression could be the chain. Hope this helps.
or the gear
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UPDATE:
Compression test complete. Uniformly LOW across the board. Took the timing chain cover off. The timing chain is WAAAAY off. Apparently, I didn't have it lined up correctly during installation. I will be pulling it off tonight to try and reposition it. New timing cover gasket won't be here until Wednesday so I'll be back with another update near the end of the week. Hopefully, that update will include a video of the engine running. Wish me luck my friends.
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All the best of luck. One good thing about flatheads, unlike modern high compression close tolerance engines. If a modern engine is out of time, engine and valves, parts will hit and break- often fatal and $$$$$$$ Flatheads cab be assembled wrong and live to run another day.
Scott K
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OK, Got the timing chain lined up correctly. Put everything back together. Now everything is lining up. Tried to start the engine and it's doing EXACTLY what it was doing back when I started it for the first time. It's trying to start but the starter keeps kicking out and spinning before it can fire up. Last time it did this I just kept on trying and trying until it finally started. Jim suggested that I had a stuck open valve and when the rotation of the engine was reaching the cylinder with the stuck valve it was making the starter spin too fast and it was kicking out. This makes perfect sense as I know that I have one stuck exhaust valve in the number 6 cylinder (I had TWO stuck when I started it the first time). I was going to try an unsticking method once I got the engine started. For now I'm going to keep trying and hope I get lucky like last time. In the meantime, anyone have any other suggestions? Oh, and seeing as it might come to me taking off the cylinder head to unstick the valve, where do you guys get new head bolts?
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Try a compression test now. Is the distributor in right? Try the thumb in #1 to find the right TDC. It should still start with one or two stuck valves. Are you getting any backfire or flames?
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Compression test results: 1-55psi, 2-55psi, 3-0psi, 4-0psi, 5-45psi, 6-0psi. :-* Looks like I have a LOT more stuck valves than I thought!! I knew about 4 and 6 and I thought I got 4 unstuck. Found TDC and everything lines up PERFECTLY so timing is right. At one point I got a little puff back through the carb. No flames, just a puff of vapor. Only happened once. What's the next step here? Valve job?
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I'm surprised to see so many cylinders with zero compression. That's almost always indicative of timing issues or valves that are stuck open. You can remove the valve inspection cover without removing the manifolds...try that and spin the engine with the starter with the plugs removed. Observe valve operation to see if they are returning. Broken or weak valve springs will cause the same problem.
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Take off the right (front passenger tire) and you see a inner panel that is removable, This allows access to the valve cover so you
can watch the valve action when it is removed. Buy a can of engine fogging oil (at marine dealer) and spray it into each cylinder, It
looks like shaving cream. Put the plugs back in a thread or so and let sit overnight, Next day remove plugs and turning over engine
watching the valve action. This is on the zero and low reading cylinders. You may get lucky after several times of fogging to get the
valves unstuck. It is doubtful that you can get 3.4.5,6 all free, but it is worth a try. I bought my hardened head bolts at a tractor
supply store. They sold them by the pound! A complete set was about $12.
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55 seems really low for the "good" cylinders. If you are positive the chain is on right try putting a few squirts of motor oil in the good cylinders. Then do another compression test. See if it improves. It won't start on 55. It may start on 75 or more.
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Tried putting some oil in the cylinders. It brought the compression up to around 75. Dumped oil in the 3 good cylinders, quickly put everything back together, and tried to start it. It is trying to start. I can hear some of the cylinders firing. But every time they do the starter kicks out and spins. If the starter would stay engaged I believe that the engine would eventually start. I am also trying to free up the valves in the other 3 cylinders. I couldn't find a fogging oil that was a shaving cream consistency so I bought some Seafoam Spray. Sprayed them down heavily and put the plugs back in loosely. Will let that sit overnight and see what happens. Going to pull the wheel well cover and tappet cover next time I'm out there so I can see what's going on. Got a feeling that head's coming off no matter what I do though. We shall see.
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My 54 had starter problems like what you are experiencing. I had the starter rebuilt, now it doesn't kick out anymore.
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Inspection cover removed. I have a good view of the valve action now. Confirmed that two valves are stuck open. That accounts for two of my three dead cylinders. However....the third cylinder is a mystery. It would appear that both valves are opening and closing normally. They both seat at the same height that all of the working cylinders seat. Just for the heck of it I dumped a teaspoon of oil in that cylinder and the compression jumped to about 20. So does that mean I have worn out or broken rings in that cylinder? Man, if I have to take that oil pan off again I'm just going to pull the whole engine, replace everything, and be done with it. Oh, and the seafoam didn't appear to help the stuck valves. :( :(
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I think the rings are either worn or stuck and when you dump oil in the cylinder it's temporarily sealing them and bumping compression. My 50K exhibited the same symptoms...low compression that would come up with oil in the cylinder. I pulled the engine and found the rings were worn so I just rebuilt the whole thing.
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That's what I thought. Well, there goes my plan to have the car back on the road this summer. Always next year I guess. A few questions:
When you pulled the engine, how did you do it? By that I mean how did you attach the cherry picker? I have a lift plate. Will that work or do I need to get some of those that have the loop hooked to them and mount to a single bolt?
Did you leave the trans. in the car or take it out too? If you left it in, does it have to be supported? Which way is easier, leaving it in or taking it out attached to the engine?
I called a very well respected machine shop today and had them give me an estimate for total rebuild (all new internal parts and all the machining). The estimate was $3000-$3200. This was a LOT higher than I thought. What do you guys think?
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Remove the hood radiator, hood latch support and front bumper...that will make engine removal much easier. Remove the engine and transmission together...it's much easier. Drain the trans first or you'll have fluid everywhere as the drive shaft acts as the rear seal.
I used a cherry picker with a load leveler and two large straps designed for engine lifting. A word of warning, the engine coupled to the cast iron hydramatic is heavy so make sure your lift chain or straps are up to the job.
$3k sounds about right to rebuild a 226. I had a bit less in mine because I worked at a parts store and bought the parts at cost. My labor cost was somewhere around $1800.
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Thanks Jim. Front bumper is already off. Was looking at the latch support today. Doesn't look too difficult. Have to get some help with the hood. I've got a 2 ton cherry picker and a 2 ton load leveler. Those should be able to handle the engine and trans. I'll take off the water pump and the generator to lighten it a bit too. Thanks for the information. Since I have to pull the oil pan and take out pistons, do you think it is worth it to take the engine out of the car? I'm still trying to decide whether I should try to do this with the engine in or just pull it.
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I would pull the engine. The flywheel acts as the front cover of the torque converter and they're mated together with a few dozen bolts. If you try to drop the crank with the engine in the car, you'll need to removed the converter bolts, then loosen the transmission to slide it back just to get at the flywheel to crank bolts. Trust me, it's much easier to pull both as one assembly and then remove the transmission with both out of the car. Been there and done that.
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Think I have just about decided pulling the engine and trans. is the way to go. Not only will it allow me easier access to everything, I can go ahead and thoroughly clean the engine, trans, and engine compartment while it's out. Few more questions for you Jim:
Does the transmission cross member need to be removed or will the Hydramatic clear that on the way out?
I know you have to slide the driveshaft out of the trans. Does the other end of the driveshaft need to be disconnected from the rear end or will it pull out of the trans. while it's still connected?
While I've got the Hydramatic out, are there any relatively easy seals to get to that I should go ahead and replace? I really wish I had gotten to test the trans. before now. That's really going to suck if I do all of this work on the engine, get everything back in, then find out my trans. is toast.
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The crossmember is not removed prior to engine/Xmission removal. Just unbolt the rear supports from the crossmember and it should all slide out. The driveshaft is best removed from the car prior to engine extraction. In principal one could leave it in for removal but it would be a pain and it will have to be removed for re installation anyway so remove it and simplify everything.
The rear seal (driveshaft) should be replaced. Beyond that unless you have a known problem sleeping dogs should be left lying, unless you want to overhaul the whole unit. Given the condition in which you found the engine, I would opt for an overhaul.
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The hydramatic is generally speaking a bulletproof transmission. With clean fluid and proper adjustment they will outlast an engine several times over. When you drain the fluid, check its color. Fresh would be a bright red, older fluid will be darker. Anything real dark or black is indicative of overheating and clutch wear. The pan can be removed and should be to inspect the filter (can be cleaned and reinstalled) and the pan for any stray bits from inside the transmission itself. Some grey sludge is to be expected...that's the steels and clutches wearing and would be normal. Heavy deposits would indicate a worn unit that should be rebuilt.
Unfortunately, one of the seals that leaks most is the front pump seal. For some reason known only to GM, it's installed from inside the case so if it is leaking the only way to replace it is to tear the unit down. All that for a $10 seal. My 54 has 314K on the clock and the only reason I rebuilt the transmission was to replace that seal. Otherwise, it would still be doing its job with what I was told were the original parts.
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Thanks for all of the great advice guys. It helped tremendously. I spent 9 hours straight in the garage today getting everything ready for the motor and trans. to come out. With the exception of the hood it is ready to go. I have to get someone to come over and help with the hood.
Jim, I had the trans. pan off once before and it looked pretty good in there. Fluid was a bit dark but not too bad for being vintage 1974. There was a small amount of material in there but not a lot. I cleaned the filter and put a new gasket on the pan. While I have it out I'm definitely going to put a new propeller shaft seal in. Probably going to pull that side pan and put a new gasket on that too. As for the pump seal, I had to do one of those in the Dynaflow on my Buick. It involved taking the torque converter apart and removing it. The seal was a metal clad round type that you pressed in behind the converter. I'll check my Hydramatic manual but if the job is similar I might go ahead and do it while it's out.
Thanks again for the help guys. I'll update whenever I can get someone over to help me with the hood. Maybe if I provide some cold liquid refreshment and maybe a slice or two they'll stick around to pull the engine too. ;D
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My hydro experience has been other than bulletproof. I have done more hydro overhauls than engine. The problem has invariably been bushings and sticking rather than leaks. This results in a disinclination to shift when it is supposed to. Once backed up 3 miles because it would only go into reverse (summer day and there was a resulting engine temp problem.) Anytime I could get my hands on a removed one I would rebuild it. Of course my rebuilt now doesn't much like to go forward after it has been in reverse, but that is a known issue for new and rebuilts, overcome by a bit of revving. So take your pick.
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The only issue I ever experienced with mine...aside from leaks, was a problem in the 2-3 shift. That's when the transmission is switching from one band to the other and if the clutches are worn, it will either slip or not want to shift. Mine would balk at shifting once hot but would eventually go to third gear. That transmission had 210K on it so I figured I got my moneys worth out of it!