Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ldladyvt on November 18, 2009, 06:17:39 AM
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Morning folks!
I am working on the class cheat sheets for the KF Judging manual and a Power Point presentation. Any ideas, pictures, information you might like me to use please send to me. (ldladyvt@hotmail.com) I am looking for shots of excellent, good, and fair parts.
Thank you for your help and input!
Char Dayton :)
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Jack Mueller has been working on judging guidelines for each model of our Kaiser's and Frazer's for years. I hope that you get in touch with him as he has pictures as well. I have seen some of the guidelines and they will be of tremendous help to both the judges as well as the owners. He covers every visible part of the car and lists what is authentic or not for each model. The guidelines need to be implemented as soon as possible so that they can be fine tuned for judging. As you know, judging of the cars has been a big problem for the club since the beginning.
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All members should please note that Charlotte Dayton first learned about my set of rough drafts for Judging Standards since she took over the first time and sat on the information, as did Fred Walker before her. Club President Mike Knittel has assured me in a September 2009 e-mail (I still have it) that he would contact Char promptly to have her contact me about refining the material for use. As of the date and time of this posting, I have heard nothing from her.
Please note also that I have been trying to get the National Officers and Directors of the KFOCI interested in applying these standards and making them available to judges and interested club members since approx. 1995 and have been shot down, with Carl Hering calling them a "waste of time and paper". Now that we can put things on CD the paper issue is moot, and as a CD, production cost should come out to be less than $1.25 a copy plus shipping costs, further negating any reference to cost.
Lastly, if I do not hear from the proper parties on this and things are not rolling by 1/31/2010, I will accept the fact that the membership of this club has no interest in what is correct or acceptible for their cars, and will toss the material into recycling.
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
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Jack,
Can you send me what you have assembled for the Henry J? I am doing a full body off restoration on a 1952 Henry J Vagabond Deluxe. I am working hard to put it togther as correct as possible. You might remember me as I have contacted from time to time. I hate to piece meal more info from you. I have spent a larghe amount of time and money to get my car correct. Any help I can get would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Mark Steele
10034 N 107th Ave
Sun City, AZ 85351
623-412-7903 (Home)
AZSteele123@aol.com (e-mail)
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To Mark Steele and others interested in the material I put together...
The items I have worked up are in rough form only; they need to be reviewed, discussed and tested against actual cars before being considered "good to go". I am reluctant to release anything because some of the information may be changed or added to which could impact the results of restorations or upgrades. If anyone is interested in getting a copy of a draft for their particular car as a "for reference only" and not accepted for judging purposes, please send me an e-mail at kaiserfrazerlibrary@yahoo.com. You will get the material as scanned files, and the total file size could exceed 500kb.
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
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I'm extremely suprised the information Jack has amassed is not being sought after by the officers of our club.
ANY historical data, and most especially information that could be used by members and judges alike, to help set standards for judging or just an individuals goals in how far they want to take a given restoration, should be considered very valuable to the Kaiser-Frazer community as a whole and to the judges in particular.
Is there a reason for this evident lack of interest? I cann't think of ANY reason why information should not be sought after and appreciated.
John Russell
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I noticed John's comment and I can give an example of why the stuff was buried.....
What the material was first prepared, Fred Walker was not only Chief Judge, he ran a restoration shop specializing in K-F restoration work and was also perhaps the largest of the parts vendor/members in the KFOCI. Fred told me that written standards were not required. All one had to do was to buy all their parts from him or, better yet, have his shop do the needed restoration or upgrade work. Fred made a point at National Convention judging times to note the cars on the judging field that came out of Auto-Pride and that regardless of how they looked or were set up, judges in the particular classes could use the Auto-Pride car as a benchmark. A number of items sold by Fred were in fact wrong for the car they were put on to...ask Jerry Laurin about his very early 1947 Kaiser Special as just one example, or check with Adam Harder about his 1949 Kaiser, in particular his exhaust system.
How about that for a conflict of interest?????
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Point taken...
But...
Fred is no longer gathering the info. Jack (you), I believe, are? And from what I have read you have been doing so for years. I am assuming 2 things here:
1. You don't have a conflict of interest and
2. You have vetted the info you got from Fred and have corrected what needed correcting.
All I'm saying is - that the information is of value to those of us that are restoring these cars. It should be made available, at least those portions that have been vetted for accuracy, to the club as a whole and to help establish standards for judging, so that (hopefully) cars being judged on the West Coast, say, are judged by the same standards as cars in theMid-West, the South or the East. It only makes sense.
I DO note that you have offered to send data for individual models to those that ask (as I did), but it would be nice to have access to the full body of work, at least those sections that are complete.
Thanks for listening all... ;-)
John
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I need to correct a few things that may have been mis-understood.
First off, Fred Walker gave me NOTHING! I never said that, in fact I tried to indicate that Fred had no interest in putting anything down on paper...it might come back to haunt him later on.
Second, I am not in the restoration, auto mechanics or auto body business and hever have been other than a helper on occasion, working with someone else on a project. I am also not in the parts business, although I may, on occasion sell small amounts of surplus or trade them for other things I want. Because of legitimate and necessary provisions in the Constitution and By-Laws of the club, a person cannot be both Club Historian and Chief Judge at the same time. Also, it should be noted in the interests of full disclosure that between work schedules and travel costs, Barbara and I don't get to National Conventions that often these days, and I don't see that changing in the near future unless the meet is close to home (Cleveland OH area).
Third, I continue to gather materials to help fill gaps in my information files on things K-F, Willys and so on. I have repeatedly shared this info with others at no cost other than (when required) photo copy and postage expenses. I have also taken profolios of materials and binders of documents to meets I am able to attend. Remember, this is stuff I paid for out of my own pocket and is mine, not the club's. If I stop being Club Historian, the material stays with me so any replacement would have to come into the job with their own files, photos, etc.
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I would like to say, one thing you can do in getting closer to having a true original looking car, is look at factory original photos, This really helps when you look at engine bay photos, as they show where the decals should be, as well as the color for items, such as a oil filter case, the starter, generator, ect.. This shows what was black, what was engine green ect.. that should help alot for those items.
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True and proper factory original photos are black & white so how do you tell colors off them? Better idea is to use the color pictures (actual photos or drawn illustrations) in factory literature or the color pictures in the upcoming KFOCI HANDBOOK VERSION 4.0.
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I am truly surprsied and disheartened that anyone in our club would think that having access to information is a waste of time. The opposite, of course, is true. You mentioned that Carl Hering shot the idea down, but is this not something that the club members can vote on? I am a member and have a an interest in this being produced. I would definitely buy a copy if someone produced it even if it were much more expensive than the $1.25 you estimate. Lastly, many other clubs have gone to great lengths to provide exacting and detailed information on how to restore their cars. One that comes immediately to mind is "Restoration Facts" for the 1941 Buick http://www.buickclub.org/old/1941.htm, which goes as far as to list what percentage of gloss black for each undercarriage part, etc., etc. It certainly seems to me that there are enough people in this club who would want this to continue. Jack, I hope you don't scrap your work. I would hope that the club finds it of sufficient value to encourage (financially and otherwise) you to continue. Information once lost can never be regained.
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Many factory photos and sales brochures are done months before the cars are finished and should not be relied on for accuracy as they are often of prototype cars and include features that are not on the final production cars. Jack has not only used hundreds of factory photos but he has spent hours going thru parts books, literature, service bulletins, accessory bulletins and his huge private collection of dealer aids and all things Kaiser Frazer. By meticulously going thru this material year by year he has determined when parts changes and improvements occurred and has documented all the changes in a booklet form for not only each year of car but each model as well. The old regime is gone and it is time for us to get into the 21st century with our judging. The information is there for the asking. It just needs to be fined tuned and we can all help by making observations and suggestions about our own cars. I don't care if it costs $1.25 or $25.00 to reproduce this material I would like one for each year and model of our cars just to learn more about them. The material is badly needed by the club and as it is disseminated to the members it will be the final word for judging. Most clubs have this material available to members and we can too. Gordie Chamberlin Former National President and Chief Judge of the Early Ford V-8 Club of America
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Jack I would like a copy of the info for my 3 Kaisers. We have a 49 Traveler 52 Manhattan and 52 deLuxe 4 dr my email is kennsnotavailable@yahoo.com and let me know where I can send a donation to further KF research and history. Our 49 has 14k miles on it and has been in storage since 56. I can use info like this.
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Hello Char, as Chief Judge we have not heard from you regarding the available judging standards. As you can see members want them and the Club sure does need them. Is there any reason that we can not go ahead with their implementation? Here is an opportunity to help make our restorations more authentic and not have to rely on memory by the judges in this important phase of club participation. If we do not go forward on the judging standards we are flirting with losing all of these years of research and documentation on the different years and models of our cars. What are your thoughts on this important issue? Thanks, Gordie Chamberlin
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To Char, Chief Judge of KFOCI,
I wish to recommend that we hold off on implementing Jack's 1951 Henry J Models K513 & 514 and Henry J Vagabond Models K523 & K524 Standards. Jack was kind enough to send me a draft copy of it a few days back. I have had time to look through it and it may require some changes. Jack has done an exceptional job in assembling this information. I have contacted Jack and ask if I might send in my recommendations along with supporting documention. He has contacted me and is open to hear them, as I knew he would. He indicated that what he has assembled are to be a 'starting point'. So lets build on these as quickly as possible and then implement them.
Best regards,
Mark Steele KFOCI # 9311
1952 Henry J Vagabond Deluxe.
Sun City, AZ
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To Mark Steele and others of similar bent.
It is my opinion that Mark Steele is has mis-stated my position on the judging standards drafts for reasons of his own. I have never suggested, required or otherwise stated that the drafts as they sit be implemented. Mark, you need to clarify your posting and I believe an apology from you is in order.
If you read through my postings on this topic you will see that I repeatedly state that these are rough drafts and are no where near a finished state. Mark's first line states that the club should "hold off" implementing the standards, then states later that I indicated the material as a starting point...the last part is true. The lie is that I never suggested the material be implemented as they sit as a standard to judge cars by. Not only in my postings, but in my cover emails on draft copies sent to those requesting them, I stated that these are not ready for use, and have not represented as such. They will require review, expansion and a number of general questions will have to be settled and included in a final draft. Even then, it will have to be "tested" against cars in various conditions, tweaked and cleaned up. I figure that even if things started January 1, 2010, it would probably be at least the 2013 National before it would be ready for use and even then, a transition period may be in order.
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Jack please accept my apology for any mis-statment of anything that you said.
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Jack, thanks for making the judging standards available to the members. It is expected that changes and additions will be necessary before they are finished and thanks Mark for getting back with some suggestions. I don't know how much time Jack can devote to this but we all need to try to get these guidelines and read them and get back to Jack with ideas. Not all of them will be valid but lets get this thing rolling. WE can make things happen!
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Char approached me about judging standards for the Darrin. Even though she did not share with me the rough draft she created, she expected me to supply information (sorry, Char...how can I give you additional info if I don't know what you already have?). According to her e-mail she apparently plans to do 1 or 2 classes per year...at that rate it will take more than 10 years to create judging standards that may very well have to be updated and revised by then...just like the way people used to do the HANDBOOK, and us older members know what happened to the first 3 tries at that thing.
Sorry, I cannot be a party to that kind of activities.
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
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Does anyone have a copy of the current Judging Sheet that is used. If the do an they e-mail it to me. AZSteele123@aol.com.
Jack, If you were in Char shoes how would you approach moving forward with what you have given her? Would it be what you have already posted in this forum?
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Hi There,
This is what I believe to be the current judging sheet.
http://circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/KF%20Meet%20Entry%20Judging%20Sheet.pdf (http://circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/KF%20Meet%20Entry%20Judging%20Sheet.pdf)
Hope this link works
This is the judging sheet used at the KFOCI Natl in 2008. My apologies if changes have been approved since.
Travel On,
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Jim,
Thanks, We have not talked in a long time. How is your Henry J coming?
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No progress on HJ as I bought a 53K Manhattan 2 Door which is taking all my time now. Not trying to do a complete restore but trying to build a driver.
Thanks for asking
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Do you still have the Manhattan that was purchased from the owner of "Lasagna?"
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No - that 53 Manhattan 4-Dr is now in Kaiser Bill's Museum in Utah. I miss it. Regret selling but Bill really wanted it as it was like the one he and his wife took on their honeymoon.
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Jack Mueller has been working on judging guidelines for each model of our Kaiser's and Frazer's for years. I hope that you get in touch with him as he has pictures as well. I have seen some of the guidelines and they will be of tremendous help to both the judges as well as the owners. He covers every visible part of the car and lists what is authentic or not for each model. The guidelines need to be implemented as soon as possible so that they can be fine tuned for judging. As you know, judging of the cars has been a big problem for the club since the beginning.
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TO THOSE THAT ARE WORKING ON THE JUDGING MANUAL, PLEASE KEEP UP THE WORK THAT YOU ALL HAVE DONE AND GET IT FORMULATED FOR ALL THE CLUB TO PARTICIPATE IN. yOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE THE NAY SAYERS I HAD TO CONTEND WITH IN FOR YEARS IN GETTING ALL THE VINYLS REPRODUCED. I GOT THE SAME TREATMENT IN WORKING WITH THE OLD TIMERS IN GETTING A WORKING AGREEMENT TO PRODUCE THE LUXURA AND LAMAR MATERIAL. AT TIMES I WAS TOTALLY DEPRESSED UNTIL I SAW HOW PEOPLE WERE USING TRUCK UPHOLSTERY AND VELOUR(MOUSE FUR) AND WERE CALLING THE CAR RESTORED. THE SAME GOES IN THE PARTS SOURCES I WORK ON THAT LISTS MANY REPRODUCED PARTS FROM OTHER SOURCES THE WERE USED BY KAISER
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Charlotte Dayton has never requested the full set of drafts; the only one she asked for covered 1953 Kaiser Deluxe Traveler, the same kind of Kaiser she has.
If I was in charge of this, here's roughly how I would proceed:
1. Get together a group of 5 or 6 knowledgeable club members, who have expertise in different areas (Darrin, 1947-50 Kaiser, 1947-51 Frazer, 1951-53 Kaiser, 1954-55 Kaiser, etc) and see if they would commit to working with me (and others) as a team.
2. I would update the old drafts, taking into account materials I've acquired since these were done.
3. Circulate the updated drafts to the appropriate members of the group for comment and discussion.
4. BASED ON INFORMATION IN FACTORY AUTHORED MATERIALS (Service Bulletins, Confidential Bulletins or Trade Letters, etc) make any needed additions to the updated drafts.
5. Since Barbara and I will not be in TX for this year's National (sorry, Barbara can't do the heat down there in the summer) deputize someone from the team to oversee "tests" on cars and get feedback.
6. Refinment of standards based on feedback and test results at the 2010 National
7. Run additional test judging activities at Midwest, Eastern and/or Western Division spring meets in 2011
8. Refine as required per results of (7).
9. If the team is confident of the product (standards) they would be presented to the membership at the 2011 National for acceptance and if accepted, a 2-year "transition period" would take place, allowing members so disposed to bring their cars into conformance as may be required. First year of judging using the standards officially would be 2012. During the transition period, some deviation may be allowed.
10. There is the time line for the project. I believe it can be done.
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Jack, that is a great idea. Count me in for the Graham Paige Frazer's and early Kaiser's. Come'on guys, please sign on and lets get this thing rolling. We will have guidelines that are authentic and we all can be proud of them!
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Jack, you can certainly count me in if you need input on the Henry J.
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I thank people for their interest in such a project. Please be advised however, that I have not been asked to take the point on this and am not trying to underminesomebody else's effort. However, if it is handed off to me, I hope that it will be the sooner the better; the ability to hold this ambitious time line depends in part on getting the team together and circulation of the existing draft materials no latter than early February 2010.
It seems to me the big problem is that a number of people in the club may be surprised if not shocked to find out that an Auto-Pride restoration does not guarantee repeated Gold Awards in KFOCI Judging; they may also be surprised that groups like the AACA don't know our cars all that well either...
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This is all the more reasons to get the judging guidelines to the membership. Everyone can use them! Jack, you are the logical one to spearhead the effort and I hope that everyone who reads this will offer to help out by reviewing their own car and offering suggestions to make the guidelines really usable. We need a writeup in the Bulletin too as many members are still not on-line. Fortunately many members are really experts on their own car. Please contact Jack if you can help on any car model that you feel comfortable with. Jack, would you make up a list of all of the makes and models that you have existing guidelines for? Not everyone realizes all of the work that you have already put into all of these K-F products.
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I would be enjoy being a member of the group for Henry J, Allstates, HJ Vagabonds.
I am sure that Char would welcome this kind of help once she see the outpouring of members wishing to work on it.
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According to an e-mail I received from Char on 12/11/2009, the Judging Manual was finished years ago by party or parties unknown to me. Judges have supposedly been using this highly confidential (have you ever seen a copy? I haven't) but it appears it may contain various errors or omissions (and they judged cars using it???). All she wants to do is update it.
And for years I've been told nothing in writing exists.
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
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I will be as kind as I can be.....but how can you be judged on a standard that is not available to restore your car to? That is plain stupid!
That is but another reason we are loosing members or at least member become really inactive.
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Sounds a bit like our secret Darrin Society (God, please forgive me for that minor transgression against this legendary select few)...get 'er done!!!
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Here in the Beautiful PNW at our meets we have been minimizing the judging. Long Distance, Mayor's Choice, Best Color, Most Original, Nicest Interior are the kind of awards we have been judging to. When you attempt to judge to standards that are only opinions and memories that are not written down, all you will get is hard feelings. We find that KF friendships and smiles are much more important than a 200 point car. It is nice to restore your car back to show room condition to share with your friends and guest but when arguments break out over whether your hood ornament is factory installed, dealer installed or after market then I believe your priorities are misplaced. Just my thoughts for the day. Merry Christmas and keep smiling.
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I agree with the last posting from the PNW area, but there is a snag at the National level. Insurance companies, potential buyers (especially of the big $$$ types) and interested car owners look to the KFOCI as the authority on how close a K-F product is to original new condition. There are no factory archives to consult for such information and there is all too much mis-information written over the years about these cars (one "authorative book" even states that Lycoming engines were used in all Kaiser and Frazer cars!). The point score at National level judging is considered to be THE determining factor. As this will never change with time (unless someone digs out the landfill the stuff went to in the 1970's and everything is still intact) we, the membership, owe it to ourselves, future car owners and others who will come along years after the last of the people who remember these cars new is no longer around. This is why judging standards are necessary and that these standards be available to judges and members alike. Further, these standards should address not just details and specifications but how cars should be evaluated by judges to help owners and others restoring cars understand there is more to the process than the right upholstery material, tires, etc.
I will write more on this in the February 2010 issue of the Bulletin.
Jack Mueller Club Historian
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I have received an e-mail this date (12/31) from Char...I will be working with her on development of Judging Standards. Anyone interested in being part of the team?
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Jack, I would like to be part of the team.
Fabian Oskierko LM6279
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Jack, I would like to be part of the team as well.
Mark Steele, KFOCI #9311
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Jack, Larry Barker wanted me to tell you he would like to be part of the team at a minimum on the 54-55 Kaisers. Thanks.
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Hi, All....
I am extremely gratified at the response in just so short a time. For those interested in helping, please contact me at the regular e-mail account, kaiserfrazerlibrary@yahoo.com and let me know about the area of expertise (make and/or model year or type) you can offer. I have challenged Char to get a revised rough draft on the various cars ready in time for the 2010 National.
Jack Mueller
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Kaizerfrazerlibrary please don't toss this valuable information. I for one would be interested in buying a copy of the judging rules, etc., for the 1949 Frazer retagged 1950. Mine did not however get all the Kaiser upgrades, rather remained the same as the 1949 Frazer to begin with. I hope you will get this information finished and available to the membership, I know I will certainly appreciate it as I begin to restore my new project. Thank you for your time and dedication.
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The information will be saved and built on as I acquired a lot of new material since the 1990's. At present, I am waiting for an envelope from Char with materials she has worked up from the Darrin and we see where things go from there.
Please keep in mind that the final version (if I have anything to say about it) will be STRONGLY based on factory-released documents of various types, not what somebody thought was correct or what a past Chief Judge offered club members for sale.
PS: If you have a Kaiser or Frazer with a 226 in it, I strongly do NOT recommend running Champion J-8 plugs in it. With today's gasoline (evaporates at lower temperatures than gas produced when K-F cars were new) you are more prone to vapor lock and overheating. The Auto-Lite Thermal Rating Chart indicates AC 44 or J-10 Champion plugs run in the range of the A-5. Kaiser-Frazer published a Service Bulletin advising dealers that if they had a 226 that was running hot or experiencing vapor lock and had A-7's they should drop it down to the A-5 if the engine had at least 6,000 miles on it. This is one of MANY points the standards will have to resolve.
Jack Mueller
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Any such concern with the 161?
J8's are called out as "correct" for the Darrin.
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Interestingly enough, I have no information from Willys-Overland or Willys Motors about the engine issues that K-F had with spark plugs in the 226. The thermal rating chart gives the A-5 a rating of 5 to 30, on a scale of -10 to 100. The A-7 is rated at 25 to 50. J-8 Champions are rated same as the A-7. Bottom line is that the A-7 produces a significantly hotter spark which may give you a bit more fuel economy and a bit more "ummpf" but apparently not enough in the eyes of K-F engineers to be significant or they would hot have issued the service bulletin.
In the case of plugs for the 226, it should be noted that Champion J-8 are non K-F because Kaiser-Frazer never used Champion plugs on the line. To be fair, the original Auto-Lite type A-5 or A-7 are not in production (but have turned up at swap meets; I've picked up several boxes of the A-5 over the years) which helps build a case for "original" as in factory type vs. "acceptible" or what will be considered a no point deduction alternative. I would like to think that the number of "original" things you have would help determine "extra credit" which could be helpful if the judging sheet showed a point total within a couple points of moving up an award.
Jack Mueller
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Terry, Jack:
It is easy to look at factory literature and determine Autolite A5 & A7 sparkplugs were used in KF cars. You can't get these plugs anymore as normal replacements, nor can you get Champion J-8s (you can get a modern equivalent, the J-8C, but it differs in appearance). These are CONSUMABLE components and I don't think you should expect a running car to have these components.
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And concerning "extra points," at one time the National Judging Sheet had checks for additional items such as fog, driving and spot lights for extra points. Some had the opinion that this was a way to promote sales of accessory items by the Chief Judge. I do know that most KF cars were not equipped with these accessories. To promote the installation of these items is to promote an incorrect concept of what these cars looked like when sold!
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Your various comments are noted. The issue with the spark plugs is but one example of how things were manipulated by a former Chief Judge to his advantage. Also, on the subject of plugs, the J-8 heat range as I have noted already, runs too hot for the 226 as a general rule using todays gasoline with its low evaporation temperature compared to gas made when the cars were new.
Another issue is pleats. Kaiser-Frazer had a standard width for pleats of various material. However, remember these were hand-sown up on one of the balcony areas at Willow Run and the work was done by hand. As such, there would be variation between the different seamstresses as well as the same seamstress on different days. A tollerance allowance would have to be established.
It would be oh so much easier if the old factory files still existed but they went to the landfill courtesy of American Motors soon after they acquired Kaiser-Jeep Corporation.
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Note: None of the Accessories I have acquired for my 1952 Henry J Vagabond Deluxe were obtained from any former or current Head Judge. (To the best of my knowledge.)
I want to ask everyone when was the last time you purchased a new car that did not have a 'Dealer' added accessory?
I also would like to know how many Henry J's were purchased in the 'snow belt' that did not include a 'Dealer' installed (KF) heater.
Do we know how other Classic Car Clubs address Accessories in Judging?
Would you value a 'Factory' correct car (no KF Dealer add-on KF accessory) more than a 'Period' correct car which has a few Dealer add-on (factory authorized) accessories? Like in the case of a Radio, Heater, and/or Oil Filter on a Henry J. That is assuming that condition and all other factors are the same.
I welcome good discussion on this issue.
Best,
Mark
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It seems to me (being a non-expert) that correct accessories (either factory of dealer) should in no way remove points, as long as they are correct for that year and model and are in good condition, etc. But they should not ADD points either. Getting extra points by adding accessories? I don't see how there would be any justification whatsoever for that.
As to period correct accessories (non-factory, non-dealer) I lean toward not accepting them, i.e. Points should be docked for something like a 'period correct' air conditioning unit. Thoughts?
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Logan,
Geat comments and feedback.
Mark
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I like authorized accessories on K-F products but I do not believe that they should add any points but they could be a deduction if they are installed incorrectly, need chrome work or do not work. Same thing for white wall tires. If they are radials or do not have the correct white wall width there should be a deduction. I think that aftermarket accessories are already a deduction for us although "Era" accessories are acceptable for many clubs. Two other items that will be an issue are turn signals and seat belts. They are a safety item and are accepted by most clubs if done tastefully.
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You are soooo correct about American Motors tossing records. At the Orphan Car Show in Ypsi several years ago, I met a dude who was walking around with a very large album that was filled with original KF photos and sketches of both the Darrin and Henry J in various stages of prototype--some in clay. He claims that he was a draftsman working late at AMC when they were dumping files. He took as much as he could carry in several trips!!! Great viewing but not for sale.
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I'm starting a separate topic on the issue of accessories relating to judging as well as other judging type issues. I look forward to getting all kinds of comments on the matter and the information will be useful in the evolution of the standards program. Please feel free to comment.
Thanks,
Jack Mueller
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I have today (1/27/2010) received an envelope from Charlotte Dayton concerning the matter of written judging standards.
The information in the envelope arrived too late to change my item in the February 2009 Bulletin about the judging standards activities. It seems I misunderstood or was misinformed as to what my role in the project was to be, although the idea of having rough drafts for testing at the 2010 National appears to be a correct milestone date.
Jack Mueller
Club Historian (at least for now)
Kaiser-Frazer Owners Club International
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Jack,
Can you be a little more clear as to what you are communicating above? Might you be able to compare what you thought your role was going to be to what it seems your new expected role is?
I want this process to be successful and not fall on the shoulder of one individual.
Best,
Mark Steele
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Just to remind people about how judging has been conducted, consider the case of a HJ or cheap Kaiser and a heater. These didn't come with factory installed heaters (although there were factory approved dealer installed types) and if such a car was judged and didn't have a heater, no points were taken off. If the car had a heater, then it would be judged on condition BUT no points would be taken off if the heater was an Arvin, Allstate, etc. instead of one of the factory approved items. Of course if the installation was crude, that might result in a point off.
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A similar situation exists with turn signals. Some models didn't come from the factory with turn signals so accessory units were allowed and encouraged (for safety purposes) in judging. But there is an extra consideration here because many accessory turn signals didn't integrate with the park lights and brake lights (4 wire vs 7 wire) so extra lamps had to be installed. Fred's simple rule was "As it came from the factory" conflicts with the emphasis on safety and driving the cars.