Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: RSB3 on January 12, 2010, 09:10:12 PM
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I am looking at a 1949 Kaiser Deluxe and it has all the original parts, engine is rough and may need some work, body is fairly straight with minimal surface rust but no rust through the skin. The interior is really rough but all the parts are there. The bumpers have been rechromed and are perfect and wrapped in paper. New tires, typical large whitewalls and it has a visor also. one rear side (small) window is cracked. Steering wheel is cracked. it is a one owner car.
What do you think this car is worth?
thanks in advance
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There are two tags on K-F products such as this one with important information for potential buyers. There is a tag on the firewall with numbers such as PAINT, TRIM, TR, AG, SPEC-FO and so on. The numbers on this tag help to identify how the body was originally built (paint color, upholstery material and interior color, transmission type, etc). The other tag is on the driver side front door frame by the hinges. It is the car serial number tag and in this case begins with K492 or K502.
If you can post the numbers from these two tags, identifying what numbers are found by what headings, I can let you know how the car was set up so you can tell how much of the work done on it is correct. I'm sure you will agree that the outcome can be significant in terms of value.
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
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www.nadaguides.com (http://www.nadaguides.com) can give you rough estimates.
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Thanks for the info on the identification numbers. I will try to find that info out. The car is not currrently running but does appear to have all the parts and pieces, the rust is minimal. The interior is torn out but they have all the seat frames/springs, new carpet kit and headliner material for it. The body is straight with very few dings. It has a manual transmission with an inline 4 or flathead may be the right term. It appears to be a standard Kaiser Deluxe, it does have the visor over the front split window and is a 4 door. I would think everything is original to the car which would be a plus.
Thanks again,
Bob
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"It has a manual transmission with an inline 4 or flathead may be the right term."
??? Hope this is a miss type. All 49 Kaiser and Frazer models came with an inline 226 CI flat head 6. If it really has a 4, someone transplanted it.
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Ok, i have the info on this car Model 491, Body 1, Paint 190, Trim 111, TR 2 - this was on the firewall
Model #4942
Yes it does have a 6 in it
and I bought it...
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If it's a model K491 then it is a Special (standard model). The 1949 deluxe would be a model K492 and would have the car's color (such as "Onyx", "Bermuda Tan", "Caribbean Coral", "Crystal Green", "Academy Blue"...) on the front fender flanks. The Special had a one barrell carb whereas the deluxe models had a 2 barrell carb and most deluxe models had overdrive, although some Specials did too and some had it added by a restorer. The "TR 2" on the tag indicates standard transmission without overdrive.
In any case, it's a very nice driving/riding car and very easy to get running and keep running. When you get it on the road and take it to shows or wherever, rest assured you'll have the only one there!
Keep us updated on your progress and by all means, check back in with any questions you may have.
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Ok I have a special is what I am getting from the numbers I provided. It is basically primer right now but the body is pretty straight with minimal surface rust. it does have a single barrel carb. the original color was a green color and the interior was a brown/bronze color (dash)
I paid $800 for it and all the parts are there, the seats are out and stripped to the frame/coils. and the engine will need work to get back to running order.
I pick it up tomorrow and will take some pictures to post.
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Paint code 190 is "Executive Green."
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The wheel paint is in pretty good shape and I really like that color! The interior push (door openers) are very deteriorated, do you know of replacement parts for these? I will need new upholstery for the seats, has a new carpet kit and headliner kit. I will need to go through all the parts and see what is good and what needs replacement.
The driver side window is cracked and the right rear passenger smaller window is cracked but all the other glazing is good. Are there window guides available in the after market? They are dried up.
thanks!
Bob
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1949 Kaisers are one of the easiest to find parts for of all K-F products. There are many sources within the Kaiser-Frazer Owners Club that can help you with parts, etc. Now that you have the car and before you go further, I would recommend you get the following:
1. 1947-49 (blue cover) Kaiser-Frazer Shop Manual
2. 1949 Illustrated Kaiser-Frazer Parts List (thick book)
Many parts vendors work off part numbers rather than general and sometimes vague descriptions...you can get those out of the Parts List, with drawings and pictures to identify specific items. The service manual goes into more detail on things than a generic MOTOR shop manual. You may find some of the information on the KFOCI HANDBOOK VERSION 4.0 CD interesting; new members in the club get that when they join.
Two other quick things. First of all, is there an "A" on your door post serial number tag (as in K491-A001234)? Also, where are you located? There may be members of the club in your area and perhaps one (or more) of them have a 1949 or a 1950 Kaiser Special (except for serial numbers, 1949 and 1950 models are identical). People who own and/or have restored one can be helpful with ideas and tips on where to get things.
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I have the shop manual available on CD in pdf format. Check out my site at http://www.kfnut.com (http://www.kfnut.com) Look under stuff for sale.
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I will check on the door post for the serial number, is it stamped or is it a sticker? what does the 'A' signify?
I am located in Idaho
Thanks for the info,
Bob
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The number on the door is K491-004742
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Hello...your car is a Deluxe. It has fancier upholstery, the 2bbl carb, wider rocker trim with door bottom trim and other upgrades that should include stuff like overdrive, wheel trim rings and a steering column mounted map light. Serial numbers started with 1001.
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I see in post #6 it states it is a Special.
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I'm confused too unless joefrazer mis-typed. The model number is the tell all, a K491 is a Special, and as mentioned a Deluxe would be a K492...
In either case, it will be a nice driving/riding car.
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Kaiser-Frazer operated an assembly plant in Long Beach CA during September 1949 and re-started operations in early 1950 there. Cars assembled at Long Beach have the "A" I mentioned in an earlier post here, and the cars went to dealers in the Western U.S. Cars without an A were assembled at the main plant in Willow Run, Michigan. The post stating serial numbers (door post and body on the firewall tag) starting at 1001 was correct, so it would seem your car is the 3,742nd Special 4-door sedan produced (your earlier post with info off the firewall tag) and could have been the first 1949 Kaiser Special shipped to the original selling dealer (wherever that was) and was probably produced between August 28 and October 10, 1948 (check the SCHED number...that can translate into the date the body started down the line, but not the date of final assembly).
Jack Mueller
Club Historian
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Thanks Jack. It definitely doesn't have an 'A', I am traveling for work this week but will take pictures of the tags and post and also of the car. It is completely original and needs work, I bought it from someone who bought it from the original owner in Idaho. He bought it and then stored it for 2 years and now it is mine. :)
Is there a source for glass? the driver's window and the rear right vent glass (smaller piece) needs replacement.
What is the best source for interior seats and door panels, i would like to restore close to original.
Also the plastic push buttons (door openers) and arm rests are shot, deteoriated from 60 years of use.
Thanks for everyone's input,
Bob
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Where in Idaho are you? My wife's in-laws live in Rexburg, and if you're anywhere near I'd love to see the car sometime when I visit.
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I am located in Boise but soon may be relocating to Seattle due to work. (mid March)
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Congrats on your classic buy.
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After some more research, I thought i was missing the turn signal lever but found out it was an option for the Special. Also the rear view mirror is an option, I don't have that either.
Is this correct?
I have a bone stock Special!
Thanks,
Bob
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All KFs came with an inside rear view mirror, although on some models the day/nite version was extra. An outside rear view mirror was always an option and was added by the dealer. KF had a factory authorized mirror available but many dealers used local parts sources for them. My 54K sports a Ford branded mirror and was added by the dealer at new, according to the invoice.
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Thanks! I will need to check if there are mounting holes for it for my 49. I thought I read it was an option.
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Well I am back into the car again. I am going to replace all the wiring since the fabric wrapped wiring is all frayed. Going to upgrade it with new and connectors. I also got the glass I needed from Larry (thanks Larry) and a shifter and brackets are on there way. This car is definitely a Special. Interior needs to be completely gone through since it is only springs for the most part. Is there a way to tell the color of the interior? The back of the rear seat had some type of plaid fabric with solid at the top, this original? reddish in color.
Thanks,
Bob
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According to the book, "Last Onslaught On Detroit", Trim 111 on a K4911 would be "Sahara Tan Corundle Cord." Don't know if this helps much but that's what it says.
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:o you are right! unless someone has a picture of the fabric to match...
Thanks for the info!
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Have you joined the Kaiser-Frazer Owner's Club? If so, put an ad in the monthly bulletin. I was at a meet recently and there was a member there that had a KF fabric sample book which I believe was from 1949. Someone likely has one and can help you with photos etc. so place an ad.
Also http://www.smsautofabrics.com/ may have it too.
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Fid ... I have three 1949 Fabric sample books but no trim numbers attached. So sad so bad.
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I am also missing the paper tag pieces from my fabric books, but I have seen people with a complete item. Perhaps someone could bring a book to the Spring 2011 meet of the Midwest Division so the info can be captured.
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My 49 Kaiser Special--Glass Green with dark Oakwood Brown dash also has 111 interior. Much faded, it is that Sahara Tan Corundel Cord. It is a light tan colour and the Corundel is an extremely wide wale corderoy, about a quarter inch or so if memory serves. I do believe there is a paint colour Sahara Tan or Sahara Beige used in KF or Studebaker--in any case it is very close
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Hope this helps!
(http://images116.fotki.com/v695/photos/5/1449415/8178488/100_0122-vi.jpg)
(http://images19.fotki.com/v678/photos/5/1449415/8178488/100_0124-vi.jpg?1290000794)
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(http://images57.fotki.com/v283/photos/5/1449415/8178488/100_0126-vi.jpg)
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WOW!! Thanks for the pics!!!! I have saved those and that looks EXACTLY like the interior (111) of my 4911 49 Special along with Oakwood Brown interior paint, and exterior 215 Glass Green which is close but not exactly the same as Executive Green (170).
Would you have the 215 Glass Green card as well??
I have the OTHER interior book that covers 49 cars and interiors, mostly Deluxes and Frazers I think. Unfortunately it is missing the interior for my car. If a National is held sometime in the North East or a reasonable distance from PEI, I would bring it along for duplication or viewing...maybe even sale.
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Does anyone have a Paint Code, an interior book paint chip, or the formula of Oakwood Brown, by the way?
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You can get correctly mixed paint from your local PPG jobber. If they are befudded by this, they need to contact the PPG Color Library with the K-F color and paint #. PPG will run their master chip through the computer spectrometer which matches the color characteristics to mixes using currently available material. There is no cost for the research, but the jobber will not give you that information. The idea is that the jobber sells you the correctly mixed paint.
Thanks to EPA regulations (among other concerns and situations) the old formulas contain base and tint colors that have been out of production for years.
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(http://images116.fotki.com/v695/photos/5/1449415/8178488/004-vi.jpg)
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Thanks again! Given reflection etc, that does look very close to the original colour of my car, based on the non-restored under hood area with the factory production line markings on the firewall. I notice that the Corundel Cord for Glass Green is Linden Green, and the other card with the Executive Green shows the Sahaha Corundel Cord. Thinking a bit harder, I 'think' that my Corundel Cord was likely this Linden Green rather than Sahara. Hard to tell, its so faded, and its a guess what colour Linden was originally. There are all sorts of actual linden trees around here, but I doubt that LG was the colour of the leaves or flowers!
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(http://images28.fotki.com/v977/photos/5/1449415/8178488/100_0153-vi.jpg)
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That is it! The seats are Linden Green, not Sahara Tan. This brings up a conundrum. The tags don't quite match what my car actually is. I'm not sure how an Oakwood Brown dash ended up in it because isn't it supposed to be Linden Green paint with Glass Green 215 exterior, and Linden Green fabric? Or am I wrong, and Oakwood Brown is correct? In any case, it looks good together, oddly enough.
I just discovered I have the three pages of the Acme Proxlin paint chips and formulae, both the C 1949 and the C 1950 versions. If anyone is interested in a particular formula of the 24 colours, I'll post the old/new variations, although I'm not sure how useful they will be unless you have access to the composition of the original numbered pigments and tints.
The only chip I cannot find is that of Oakwood Brown itself. Even the TCP Color Library doesn't have a colour chip on their site, and I think OB was an exterior 47-48? colour, and interior 49-50?
I haven't figured out how to post pictures to this Forum yet.
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As I stated in a previous posting here, THE OLD MIXING FORMULAS, PAINT COMPANY TYPE NUMBERS, ETC ARE WORTHLESS! Too much has changed over the years regarding paint and companies have gone out of business. As for showing chips in print this is equally worthless as they will not scan exactly perfect and will not print exactly perfect.
Please refer to my earlier PPG posting. You can of course try to eye match off an original chip in your hand, but there is no guarantee as these things change color with time due to chemical reactions on the paint (especially colors like Caribbean Coral).
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About cars with tags that don't match the car's color, etc. Yes, many could have had alterations made by dealers and/or owners, but there are some that were factory done. I owned a 49K that a friend's father bought new. He was a salesman and wanted the car to reflect the colors of his business. This included having a dash painted brown instead of green like the trim tag stated it should have been. I have pix of the old beast somewhere and it's a two-toned green Special (yes, I know that wasn't a factory standard, but there it is), and it has a green and beige interior with an Oakwood Brown dash and steering wheel. Curiously, the trim/paint codes are not 999/888. The guy I bought it from remembers traveling by train to Willow Run to pick the car up from the factory. I asked about Willow Cottage but didn't remember anything of it, just that they toured the factory and then drove the car home.
The car now resides in Indiana and the current owner was in the process of restoring it.
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Why, thank you joefrazer.