Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: darrin502 on April 14, 2016, 09:05:21 PM
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What do you think about KFOCI combining with another club like the Hudson club?
Our club needs to grow, our members are aging (i am one)and we need new members.
Not many young people joining our club. Grow or colapse?
Lee
LM 1068
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Its a start
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The Hudson club is a great group of people with activities nationwide annually plus active regional meets. As a whole the group embraces everything from pure stock to radical hot rods ( very few around ) based on Hudson, Es***, Terraplane,and Railton cars. Membership is young to old and all points in between. One thing some in the KF community may find negative is overall the Hudson club does not share the ZEAL i see in KF for pure stock cars and absolute factory perfection on restorations. I would expect within 10 years that if KF does not merge, it will lack enough active engaged members to be viable and desireable. Likely due to aging members and a limited younger crowd. Nash Rambler club has been pulling back as well. Perhaps the real approach would be Hudson/KF/Nash Rambler as an independents club. The Studebaker community is still viable for 20 years before they may need to look at options, though they are making meets shorter to accomodate peoples lives today. Not sure about the Packard people, though they do buddy up with Studebaker community.
Lives and the world are changing. It will be harder and harder to keep the torch burning...
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As a newbie...I'm hoping the club is around for a long time. I'm looking forward to car show weather here in Ohio and getting my kiddos to them as well! It's definitely imperative to facilitate the interest.
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The Hudson club is a great group of people with activities nationwide annually plus active regional meets. As a whole the group embraces everything from pure stock to radical hot rods ( very few around ) based on Hudson, Es***, Terraplane,and Railton cars. Membership is young to old and all points in between. One thing some in the KF community may find negative is overall the Hudson club does not share the ZEAL i see in KF for pure stock cars and absolute factory perfection on restorations. I would expect within 10 years that if KF does not merge, it will lack enough active engaged members to be viable and desireable. Likely due to aging members and a limited younger crowd. Nash Rambler club has been pulling back as well. Perhaps the real approach would be Hudson/KF/Nash Rambler as an independents club. The Studebaker community is still viable for 20 years before they may need to look at options, though they are making meets shorter to accomodate peoples lives today. Not sure about the Packard people, though they do buddy up with Studebaker community.
Lives and the world are changing. It will be harder and harder to keep the torch burning...
I could not agree more. I am 40 and one of the younger members of KFOCI. I remember the National here in St. Louis back in '86 had something like 200 cars. Times have changed. I really think a national independent makes club is a great idea. Don't know if you could ever get the Packard people on board....
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thanks for the responses keep them coming. ANYTHING WE WANT TO DO WOULD HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY THE MEMBERSHIP.
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The idea of combining clubs has been entertained in the past. Many years ago, a Willys club existed and a few of the KFOCI faithful approached them about forming one large club but nothing came of it. Eventually, the Willys club folded and the KFOCI moved on.
We've also had some conversations with the Graham Owners Club but that was more on the level of joint meets, like that we're doing next month with the Willys Reunion group. The Willys Reunion group is not a club but instead are just a loosely formed group of people who get together twice a year to share their vehicles, parts, and stories. I'll share that we're using this meet as a way to gain membership, or at least awareness of the KFOCI. If all goes well both groups have agreed that we may do this more regularly - which is how it may have to be with many single marque clubs.
Just my thoughts...
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Perhaps the real approach would be Hudson/KF/Nash Rambler as an independents club. The Studebaker community is still viable for 20 years before they may need to look at options, though they are making meets shorter to accomodate peoples lives today. Not sure about the Packard people, though they do buddy up with Studebaker community.
Lives and the world are changing. It will be harder and harder to keep the torch burning...
This is perhaps an idea whose time has come, or at least has gotten much closer. 10-15 years ago, there would have been many vehemently opposed in each club to a merger - those still left who had started each club and been involved in the early growth, and those who actually had driven their favorite marque's cars when they were fairly new. But many of those folks are gone now, and the younger folks coming into our clubs were not even alive when these cars were still being manufactured. The newer folks would most likely be much more open to a multi-make club. Even some of us old folks would be too ;).
Generally the Packard folks don't seem to buddy up with the Studebaker folks, except for those that own the '55 thru '58 Packards (especially the '57/'58s that were built in the Studebaker factory in South Bend and based on Studebaker body shells). In the Studebaker Drivers Club, the reality is setting in that the future is not all so rosy unless a consistent effort is made to attract younger members; while different things have been tried, I think we are still losing ground in SDC although not as much as some other clubs. And maybe that will be the case for all the 'old car' clubs in the future, as many young folks today are nowhere as interested in cars today as 'we' were when their age. And a lot of the ones that are interested in cars are interested in modified cars, not 'factory stock' cars. I know I will get a lot of flack for saying this, but all the 'marque' clubs will have to be much more accepting of modified cars if they want to stay viable in the future.
Independents merging to stay viable -- history repeats itself!
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I think all the above statements have real merit and deserve further discussions. #458
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Keep it going
The Studebaker club would probably not be interested as they have about 12000 members I was told so we could not offer them anything. But there are many small clubs like us.
Lee
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Not knowing either club's history, it's always struck me as odd that all Willys, and especially Willys Aero's aren't in the Willys Overland club.
Looking at the total history of Willys, the connection to Kaiser was extremely brief and only at the very end of both companies existence in the US market, excluding Jeep products. If you lump US & Brazil production together it might make more sense but Ford was the final owner in Brazil, yet the same logic didn't carry over putting Aero's in the Ford club.
As for the declining interest now, I think an independant auto club or an orphan club might be the most viable solution.
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There already is a club (of sorts) that is a combined, independent alliance - the Antique American Independent Automobile Association. I do not know much about them, but is worth a looking into. Their banner says, "AAIAA is an association of non-dues paying owners of American Independent brands of cars (non GM, Ford or Chrysler Corp). i.e. Hudson, Willys, Graham, Nash, Pierce-Arrow, AMC, Hupmobile, Packard, REO, Studebaker etc." They are affiliated with the Sweethearts & Orphans Meet in Texas (Robby Markman, KFOCI member is a regular there, along with other Texan members). More info: http://clubs.hemmings.com/americanindependentautos/
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I believe that two once large multi-make car clubs are now gone. CHVA and the Milestone Car Society.
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I believe that two once large multi-make car clubs are now gone. CHVA and the Milestone Car Society.
That doesn't surprise me. It would be a balancing issue between inclusiveness and your favorite marque being lost/diluted in the crowd. I don't know how this works but I know there's a way to search car registrations. Maybe a "marketing" campaign to contact all registered KF & Willys owners with an invite to join. Other than that, maybe a marque specific club(s) merger.
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The policeaman can do it but they wouldn't 'cause of the laws.
If you got a friend in blue, try asking.
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CHVA just won a Golden Quill award (along with our very own Barbara Mueller). Surprised me that they are still active, glad they are.
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Last weekend attended a Hudson regional club meet. 38 cars, 46 families. reviewed plans for the 2018 National meet : Wisconsin Dells Wisconsin, Chula Vista Resort. May include a caravan to Iola meet and show. DUKW rides from resort and many more family friendly options.
Maybe the thoughts should be less a true merging of the clubs but more a sharing of national and regional meets by mutual agreement. Duties are split, most if not all activities shared, expenses shared pro-rated/ same reimbursement. The larger meets appear to this newbie to be the real difficulties. Even the newsletter may be getting hard to keep up, but the group events are the real issue.
Yes, i would consider being a local liason IF there is interest in approaching for 2018. I am known, if to a lesser degree, in the local Hudson communitty, by the people tied to the event.
Scott K
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i don't know if I like the idea of merging with other clubs. I think that as a young person, 19 and an owner, we need to preserve the very unique mindset we have as a group. I don't know of any group or club that is as helpful and generous as ours. We are people who want to preserve our cars and their legacy and aren't focused on making a buck (sometimes it is nice too though) and that is something to think about if we were to merge. would it be wise to potentially damage the real reason that our club is strong even if the core group is so small.
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What if we could get some museum space at the Willow run hanger, I mean like a solid KF room. They probably have the space for it and I'm sure we can all get some pretty cool stuff there for an exhibit. We need to find ways to get out the history and the story to the public. Maybe release some KF articles on Hemmings too.
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What if we could get some museum space at the Willow run hanger, I mean like a solid KF room. They probably have the space for it and I'm sure we can all get some pretty cool stuff there for an exhibit. We need to find ways to get out the history and the story to the public. Maybe release some KF articles on Hemmings too.
There is work afoot as we are reading this to create both a KF Historical Society and a room at the Ypsilanti Museum (formerly a Hudson dealership up until a few years ago, believe it or not) and site of the annual Orphan show. Everything manufactured at Willow Run and Ypsilanti are honored there (KF, Corvairs, Tuckers, Hydramatics, WWII bombers, etc.). The late Ken and Blanche Mericle's yellow Traveler is on permanent display along with a '51 Kaiser body-in-white that never made it to the assembly line, still on the casters that it's been sitting on for 65 years, as are other KF products.
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Sending some articles to Hemmings or some such might be a good idea. I wonder if we could send some reprints of Allen Hogle's well-researched historical articles from the Quarterly back in the 1980's. Anyone know about copyright laws in this case?
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The CHVA was started as an all car club for Independents as well as cars from the Big Three. It was very popular for years but some chapters in the Los Angeles area have closed down and the club is not as popular as it once was. One club that would welcome us all is the AACA. It started for antique cars and for many years it was for 1915 and earlier cars only. Now they are including cars in the 1960's and they have chapters all over the United States and they have local meets in most states. A typical National meet at their home in Hershey PA will have over two thousand cars on display and being judged. It takes a huge group of volunteers to handle such an event. You will see many Kaiser, Frazer and Willys cars at their meets as many of our members are also AACA members. There have been over 5,000 different American car companies over the years and only a few of them have a following so big that they can have their own club. you see most of these orphan cars on display at various museums or at multi car meets.
One thing that is hurting participation in National Meets is the quality of gasoline today. Our cars are not as dependable today as they were when they were new and the fuel was formulated differently. Look for it to change radically in the near future as the our government is trying to wean us away from fossil fuels and eliminate smog and as electric cars get better you will see gasoline powered cars being eliminate completely. Some versions of electric cars now have a 400 mile radius and when you see that technology get less expensive you will see the general population buying them exclusively. My own Prius regularly gets 50 miles to the gallon and I don't understand why every one does not drive one. Gasoline in Los Angeles is almost $3.00 a gallon and is taxed much higher than in the rest of the US.
It would be wonderful if our KFOCI had it's own museum and a few years ago we invested club money to start a foundation for the purpose of having a collection of all things K-F but it was never completed. As our membership numbers decline I doubt that it will ever happen although some of our members have fine private collections and they are often on display at our National Meets. The Ypsilanti Heritage Museum in Michigan has a fine collection of Kaiser Frazer memorabilia and it was donated to them by prominent KFOCI members because our club had no place for them and we have lost other collections for the same reason.
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I missed this discussion when it was active. I read all the comments. The club should merge with similar clubs. I think that "most" clubs should become divisions of the AACA. That will be perhaps another 20 years, but all old car clubs have dwindling membership.
I was surprised when Lee stated the Studebaker Driver's Club SDC) has 12,000 members. If he knows for sure that is great but I highly doubt it. I was a member of the Buick Club of America when it had 7,500 members and there were millions more Buicks made than Studebakers. If SDC is that strong then the rest of the clubs need to find out what is going on!
The PAC Packard Club is not a good fit for KFOCI. I too was a member of that club and I just think it's not a good fit.
What is a good fit is the Nash Club and the Hudson Club. I owned a Hudson Commodore 8 2 years ago and gave it away to the Hudson Club President who lives right here in Des Moines, Iowa.
So - I got their periodical for awhile and I think the culture of the Hudson and Nash club's more aligns with KFOCI. In that all brands are considered independents and differed from the mainstream manufacturers while they were relevant in the marketplace.
Therefore all have members that appreciate the uniqueness of the cars. Of course, both Nash and Hudson have cars dating back to the teens and twenties but the bulk of what would be at a meet or reported in a monthly periodical would be post war.
Merging could see members cross buying and owning the other brands. As mentioned, I have owned a Hudson and 2 Kaisers and have always considered buying a Nash, got close a couple of times. Some of the KFOCI members own Hudson and Nash now.
This should happen sooner rather than later and would take club leadership just having conversations with the other leaders to start.
Benefits would be a better periodical - I know the Hudson magazine was a slick magazine not a newsletter like KFOCI.
Better meets - more cars, more variety and stewardship.
Better national museum status and endowment.
Negatives - perhaps, and this is unknown - one side is stronger than the others and has more content in the monthly magazines, but not sure.
If everyone waits too much longer, then the clubs will fold and this opportunity would be lost. Still, the very best scenario is that the AACA reach out to ALL of the individual marque clubs and offer to make them divisions of the AACA.
The Buick Club of America, and I think even KFOCI have divisions. The BCA has about 20 now, one for each subgroup that has a particular focus. So, if the AACA made that offer, and car clubs joined as divisions, then despite overall declining memberships, the group would have "critical mass" and be able to withstand the cultural shift in the next 20-30 years.
The treasurer of the BCA opined about 2 years ago that he sees membership in the BCA dropping to such levels that solvency would be difficult.
I apologize for not being a member of the KFOCI and yet making some statements on the forum. Right now I don't own any collector cars and am not much of a club joiner but if I did buy any of a particular make of car, I join the club. That is the only reason I was in the Hudson club. I did not renew after I gave my Commodore 8 to the President.
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I was surprised when Lee stated the Studebaker Driver's Club SDC) has 12,000 members. If he knows for sure that is great but I highly doubt it. I was a member of the Buick Club of America when it had 7,500 members and there were millions more Buicks made than Studebakers. If SDC is that strong then the rest of the clubs need to find out what is going on!
Most of the Studebaker Drivers Club members say membership is 12,000 since it's a good round number, but actually is right at 12,500.
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WIKI - Studebaker (1852–1967 /ˈstjuːdəbeɪkər/ STEW-də-bay-kər) was an American wagon and automobile manufacturer based in South Bend, Indiana. Founded in 1852 and incorporated in 1868[1] under the name of the Studebaker Brothers Manufacturing Company, the company was originally a producer of wagons for farmers, miners, and the military.
COMMENT - As Studebaker was business of 100 years longer than Kaiser-Frazer it is of no surprise it would have a much larger following.
Let's just concentrate on making our little Club better and better. People join Clubs and Organizations with people that have positive outlooks and warm feelings towards each other. Please on this day of Thanksgiving lets give thanks for our fantastic vehicles, the spectacular literature and all the family of folks who have remained loyal to our wonderful Club.
Just my thoughts.
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Following up on my comments from much earlier in this thread. The Midwest division of the KFOCI conducted a joint meet with the Midwest Willys Reunion group and both organizations agreed that it was a big success. Each got to see how "the other side lives" and both came away with some fresh ideas for future meets. I think you'll see more of this in the future with many car clubs and in fact, many have been doing this for some time. Like the KFOCI, there's no appetite for mergers but there is a desire to build interest and ultimately, membership. So, some cross pollination with like-mined clubs can, and does, yield results.
I agree with an earlier mention, let's keep the KFOCI the KFOCI and work to make it a better club. There are many avenues we can explore to build interest - like holding joint meets - but let's do so while remaining our own entity.
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AMEN
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I've been a member of KFOC 37 years, SDC for 30 years, HET for 26 years. I belong to other clubs, including AACA. Here in Atlanta, where there is only 2 or 3 KFOCers, we don't get together as KFOC very often. Usually, Frank Pudysz or I will decide it's time for another Dixie region and we begin to plan. That has happened twice now over the past 7 or 8 years. In the meantime, I attend meetings of the other clubs I belong to and Frank has been made an honorary member of our local HET chapter, so he shows up occasionally. SDC, PAC and HET have at least one joint meet per year with each other. Then there's also cruise nites and so forth. Not much KFOC happening here, but we bring KF to the masses by other means.
My point in all this is that we should stay autonomous as long as possible, but we need to get out and about, especially with our KFW's. Let people see them and ask questions. Maybe one in a hundred might get interested enough to join the club and/or buy a KFW.
As far as merging, we should consider becoming a division of AACA down the road. The Velie Register has done this and they have not become lost in the larger club. We can keep our autonomy and be a part of the big club as well.
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I think it will come down to solvency and numbers. I am in the Buick Club and they had 8700 members in 2010, they are down to 6350. We all know about older members of club's passing away, and the non desire of the younger folks to join clubs.
It would not make sense to join - say - a Chevy club. But KF was always an independent, and during their time, we saw most of the independents dissolve or start the process. Somehow, it seems "correct" that these independents get together once more, what they could not do in 1954, and join up.
The meets would be better populated, with more variety and interest, and ensure better solvency and quality.