Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Henry J & Allstate Forum => Topic started by: jasonrocksout on July 08, 2016, 12:04:16 PM
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Couple questions:
1st, does anyone have exact specs for making new "hood support braces"? I found a thread from a few years ago where Fid and BigDave were discussing it (and I appreciated seeing the picture you'd posted, Fid) but I'm just wondering if anyone's got, essentially, instructions for replicating them (since I'm guessing they're not parts I'm just going to find easily...)
2nd, hood ornaments. I also found a few older threads where comparison pictures had been posted, but most of them appear to not be on whatever server they were linked to at the time anymore and so aren't loading. So I'm just wanting to know definitively what the different ornaments correlate to, in terms of which ones had clear tips and which had black, and which had the round plastic bit around the spear vs. which had the... I guess triangular plastic bit around the spear...
EDITED TO ADD:
OK, 3rd, I see in the 52/53 Parts list under 18.100 it also lists "Anti-Squeak, Rear Cross Brace (3" Long) - quantity 3. What is that?
Many thanks :)
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The spear point on the Henry J was changed twice. It started as a clear bullet, was a black bullet for the '52's then went back to clear but with wings for the '53's & '54's. I seem to think there were two or three rings carved into the bullet near the base on the wingless models. HJ expert care to clarify?
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Well I think I've got one mystery solved? Looking through the 52/53 parts list, it appears that the black tip was for the 52 Vagabonds only (the series A cars), not the Corsair/Corsair Deluxe (series b) models. Those appear to have had the clear tips... Though the 52 and 53 both list different part #s for the clear tips?
Now the "rings" part Aeroman mentioned... I guess that's another question ;D
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The spear point on the Henry J was changed twice.
Actually it was changed 4 times and one persons claims 5.
Here are the Henry J hood ornaments for the respective model/year cars:
1951 ornament, KF part number 212041. The most common and yet the only true distinguishing feature on the '51 Henry J
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d929b3127cceecc40b203a6600000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160708215839733.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
This a scaled down version of the '51 Kaiser ornament.
The '52 Henry J Vagabond (referred to as "early '52" in KF literature) had this ornament. Same as '51 but black plastic
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d929b3127cceecc49213fbb100000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160708215840052.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
This is a scaled down version of the '52 Kaiser Virginian ornament. Parts book only lists numbers for the black tip (nose 213514) and ring (213513).
The '52 Corsairs (Corsair and Corsair Deluxe) had this ornament. The clear plastic tip is not the same as that on the '51 ornament
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d929b3127cceecc5cffa1a9200000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160708215839772.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
This is a scaled down version of the later '52 Kaiser ornament. The parts book does not list a number for it as unit but lists - Body 213899, Wing (plastic) 213332, nose 213296.
The '53/'54 Henry Js had this ornament
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d929b3127cceecc5a8b75a7400000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160708215840368.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Unlike all of its predecessors, this one is not a scaled down version of its Kaiser counter part. It too does not have a part number for the unit but a break down of Body 213937, Wing (chrome metal) 213901, Nose 213902
I know kaiserfrazerlibrary claims the '54 J had a tip which was the same as the '53 but black, but I respectfully disagree. It would make sense that KF would make this change but I have seen no evidence of it. I've seen a number of '54 Henry Js and never saw one with a black tip. The '54 Henry J owners manual does not show one, nor is there a part number listed anywhere for one. Neither of our claims can be proven or dis-proven at this time so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I welcome his comments.
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Greatly appreciated Fid, that's what I was looking for re: the hood ornament :)
Now I just need to find a new "wing" piece for my 52... since mine is partially broken off, sadly.
Have you any insight into the dimensions, etc., for the hood support braces?
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That's a tough part to find. I know pnw_oldmags had some at one time, so did mbfleming. Post it in the Parts wanted section and see what happens.
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The first two pictures are also the same as my 1951 Kaiser Special...in clear.
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Shawn, in photos yes. However in reality, the HJ ornaments are smaller versions of their larger counterparts used on the full size Kaisers. Smaller=not interchangeable. ;)
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However in reality, the HJ ornaments are smaller versions of their larger counterparts
Correct. The Henry J version is about 16" tip to tip, the Kaiser version 21" tip to tip.
You can usually tell the difference in pictures. Here's the one from my '51 Kaiser Special
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2da04b3127cceffa74956481c00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520120425233241980.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
This frame is from the Number 1 issue of Dennis The Menace in 1953. It's easy to see where the artist got the model for the hood ornament in the comic
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d929b3127cceecc46e73fbaf00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160709040018993.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Have you any insight into the dimensions, etc., for the hood support braces?
I think Big Dave made a set a few years ago. Perhaps he can provide some input. They fasten to the hood ornament mounting bolts at one end and to the corners of the hood on the other end. The previous thread may give you some insight on how to measure for them.
http://kfclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,4479.0.html
It starts out as a hood ornament thread but goes into the topic of the braces.
I did go out and measure the ones on my car and they're 18.5" - 19" in overall length. Looks like 3/8" round stock.
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I have found the Henry J hood a poorly designed cheap imitation for an auto hood. It's bad enough reaching through the grille opening to release both latches and then raise the heavy hood with the left arm while fumbling for and attaching the dinky hood rod with the right hand.
Closing the hood requires the utmost care. The hood must be gently closed while guided into position, otherwise the drivers front of the hood overlaps the fender by an inch and removes the fender paint.
It is with interest I have read this thread re: hood braces. I thought about this for awhile and remember two black metal rods in one of my HJ boxes of parts. These rods looked like fender support rods, but were too long to fit the rear fenders.
Well, lo and behold, I located the rods today and they measured as per Fid's dimensions. Bolted one to the underside of the hood from the forward hood emblem cap screw to the existing hole in the left front of the hood, and, voila...super strong hood. Since the hood prop rod supports the left side of the hood, adding the left brace lifted the sagging right side of hood.
The Factory should have used the hood braces since day one. Then again, the car should have had a truck lid. And a glove box compartment.
But, I digress. This Kaiser Forum has provided extremely valuable information to help me restore my cutie Henry J with the neat-o mini tail fins. Thank you.
I have provided pictures of the hood supports below.
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The hood must be gently closed while guided into position, otherwise the drivers front of the hood overlaps the fender by an inch and removes the fender paint.
The previous owner did exactly that on my '52 HJ Vagabond. The '51 HJ and '52 HJ Vagabond did not have those braces, and just like Russ, I was lucky enough to find a set in the trunk of my '52 Vagabond when I got it. And as Vagabond Russ points out, they are much needed! I remember my dad acquired a nice low mileage '51 in the early '70s and the first thing he did was make a set of those braces - he made them out of flat stock but they did the job. I always had a '53 J (still do) so I never knew how "bad" that hood is without them till I picked up my '52 Vagabond in 2001. Yes, they are badly needed and I'm sure that not having them is the reason why you see so many driver side hood trim pieces with the ends broken off.
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The hood must be gently closed while guided into position, otherwise the drivers front of the hood overlaps the fender by an inch and removes the fender paint.
The previous owner did exactly that on my '52 HJ Vagabond. The '51 HJ and '52 HJ Vagabond did not have those braces, and just like Russ, I was lucky enough to find a set in the trunk of my '52 Vagabond when I got it. And as Vagabond Russ points out, they are much needed! I remember my dad acquired a nice low mileage '51 in the early '70s and the first thing he did was make a set of those braces - he made them out of flat stock but they did the job. I always had a '53 J (still do) so I never knew how "bad" that hood is without them till I picked up my '52 Vagabond in 2001. Yes, they are badly needed and I'm sure that not having them is the reason why you see so many driver side hood trim pieces with the ends broken off.
I pointed the missing braces out to my dad, who immediately said "Oh... well that makes sense..." ;D
His first though was, similar to your dad, making some out of flat stock. Luckily I have a buddy that works at a fab shop that is happy to just knock out a set once I can get him some good dimensions (as far as at what point does the rod "bend" into the flat piece, what angle is the bend, that sort of thing)
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Would it be possible for someone to post a photo of the hood supports installed? Thanks
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Would it be possible for someone to post a photo of the hood supports installed?
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3da01b3127ccef2bd6c7864d000000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520130420225838392.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Does anyone have the exact hole-to-hole dimensions for the Hood Ornament for a 51 Henry J (Part No. 212041)? If so, please post it. Also, does anyone have one of those that they would sell? Price, please.
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Good picture Fid. I thought both rods connected to the front stud of the hood ornament. I see now that the passenger side rod connects to the center stud. Good information.
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The spear point on the Henry J was changed twice.
Actually it was changed 4 times and one persons claims 5.
Here are the Henry J hood ornaments for the respective model/year cars:
1951 ornament, KF part number 212041. The most common and yet the only true distinguishing feature on the '51 Henry J
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d929b3127cceecc40b203a6600000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160708215839733.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Hi I'm Lex de Mol from Holland, fresh member of the KFOCI.
I am the owner of a 1954 Henry J Corsair de Luxe.
On the hood is an ornament that is not mentioned here.
here a picture of my ornament.
maybe i'm wrong but it seems to complete the story.
And i'm looking for the window rubbers of the left and right door.
who can help me ?
regards
Lex
This a scaled down version of the '51 Kaiser ornament.
The '52 Henry J Vagabond (referred to as "early '52" in KF literature) had this ornament. Same as '51 but black plastic
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d929b3127cceecc49213fbb100000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160708215840052.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
This is a scaled down version of the '52 Kaiser Virginian ornament. Parts book only lists numbers for the black tip (nose 213514) and ring (213513).
The '52 Corsairs (Corsair and Corsair Deluxe) had this ornament. The clear plastic tip is not the same as that on the '51 ornament
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d929b3127cceecc5cffa1a9200000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160708215839772.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
This is a scaled down version of the later '52 Kaiser ornament. The parts book does not list a number for it as unit but lists - Body 213899, Wing (plastic) 213332, nose 213296.
The '53/'54 Henry Js had this ornament
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d929b3127cceecc5a8b75a7400000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160708215840368.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Unlike all of its predecessors, this one is not a scaled down version of its Kaiser counter part. It too does not have a part number for the unit but a break down of Body 213937, Wing (chrome metal) 213901, Nose 213902
I know kaiserfrazerlibrary claims the '54 J had a tip which was the same as the '53 but black, but I respectfully disagree. It would make sense that KF would make this change but I have seen no evidence of it. I've seen a number of '54 Henry Js and never saw one with a black tip. The '54 Henry J owners manual does not show one, nor is there a part number listed anywhere for one. Neither of our claims can be proven or dis-proven at this time so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I welcome his comments.
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With the glare it's very hard to tell what the picture in the previous post shows. More info?
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my hood ornament is totaly chrome, included the tip.
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Thanks for the additional pictures. That's interesting. I've never seen one like that. It's likely not original since there's no factory documentation indicating there were ever any metal types produced. Since the tips were often and easily broken, many have been replaced with other tips. For years I had a home made blue hood ornament tip on my '53. Using a broken one as an example, we cast it in our high school plastics shop.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3ce35b3127ccef408f53b6bee00000050O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520131015021933349.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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I saw a 51 ornament tip that had been turned on a lathe from brass and polished. it was really sharp!
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@Jake,
Yes, the car is still complete.
i have 'this' restorated..
I working on the car now.
On this moment he looks like s..t, but it will be better, end of the year.
look at the pics.
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I have seen some really good chromed brass 52-54 HJ grill bananas. Who knows where they came from
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Thanks for the additional pictures. That's interesting. I've never seen one like that. It's likely not original since there's no factory documentation indicating there were ever any metal types produced. Since the tips were often and easily broken, many have been replaced with other tips. For years I had a home made blue hood ornament tip on my '53. Using a broken one as and example, we cast it in our high school plastics shop.
@Fid;
it seems to me an original. but i'm not shure!
here some detail pics.
grtx
Lex
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It's well made but there is no record of any such part in any KF literature (parts books, dealer news, service bulletins, shop manual). Being a European delivered '54, who knows? Maybe such a thing was made for the overseas cars, you never know it all.
Here's one you see quite often:
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d935b3127cceecc92ae0f50300000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520160715024203733.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
It's a '53 ornament with a '51 plastic tip. Back in 1970s when I would attend KFOC meets with my dad you pick up an NOS 1951 Henry J hood ornament tip for 50 cents! I had a bunch of them. The tips were very prone to breaks due to people grabbing onto them to open/close the hood or just getting bumped when people walked by. The '53 tips were just about impossible to find, also lots of people who bought cars with broken tips didn't know which one was correct so they'd buy a '51 tip and install it on the '52 - '54 ornaments. You still see quite a few like that, including this one. This one is on Edgar Kaiser's custom Henry J and what's interesting about it is it has the small screw in bottom to hold it in place. Most people who replaced the tips did not know that screw was there originally and did not replace it when replacing the tip. I always wonder if when this car was put together for Edgar Kaiser, they had this ornament laying around and put the '51 tip on it and fastened it with the screw because that's all they had available. I will likely never know for sure. I'm not going to change it as the car has historical significance so everything will stay as it is on it. I'll keep it running and road worthy but nothing else will be restored/changed on it.
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@Fid;
i found on the internet some HJ in the States.
It looks, they have the same tip!
So, can't you be wrong??
grtx, Lex
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i found on the internet some HJ in the States.
It looks, they have the same tip!
So, can't you be wrong??
Car in top picture has the correct plastic tip inverted- I've seen the car. Bottom picture is an artist rendering with several errors (no bumper bolts visible, chrome trim on windshield yet fender script says only 'Corsair' - it was the Corsair Deluxe that had the chrome trim on windshield, Corsair did not have it), not a photo so not credible.
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I was recently able to purchase a set of NOS 1952 Allstate black hood ornament plastic parts, front and rear. Do you think that there would be enough demand to reproduce them? The originals were broken on both of my Allstates.
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I like the Hudson Jet in the Dennis the Menace cartoon.
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Not to hijack the thread, but the Hudson Jet image reminded me of a KF member who was also a Hudson fan. Bill Hafker owned a four door Jet and would crisscross the country in that car. He thought nothing of heading off to the west coast in search of a rare 45 RPM record, another of his passions - amazing since he called Cape Cod home for many years.
Bill had, at one time, something like 40 Hudsons and several Kaisers, as well as a few Ramblers in the mix. He downsized when he moved to the midwest but kept the cream of the crop.
He and I once tried to tow-bar an Edsel behind a 68 Buick Wildcat but the Buick's coil springs weren't up to the task, so we swapped cars and used the Edsel as the tow car. That turned a lot of heads!
Sadly, Bill passed away a few years ago and his collection was sold at auction. His KF neon signs are now owned by club members, as are at least two of his Kaisers.
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When the 1951 Frazer's were first made they had a clear plastic tip on the front of the hood ornament. It wasn't very long and production changed to a chrome plated metal tip that you see on most '51 Frazer's today. It is the same shape as the plastic tip. Broken tips did not seem to be a problem with the '51 Kaiser full size cars as they seem to have had the same tip for all of their production.
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That same issue of Dennis the Menace also paid tribute to the '51 Frazer. Check out the tail lights in the next frame -
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Just to revive this briefly, what actually is the difference (aside from part no.) between the 51 clear tip and the 52 clear tip?
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The '52 clear tip is a little bit longer and has three "grooves" whereas the '51 has two grooves.
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Thanks!
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Check out his example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Other-Makes-Henry-J-Light-beige-/331937194443?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4d48ffa1cb:g:TlQAAOSw0UdXrAGX&item=331937194443
Seller claims it's been "Restored" - I would take issue with that statement. Other than that, I like it. It is a '52 Corsair which has a '52 Vagabond hood ornament but the '52 Vagabond hood ornament has a '52 Kaiser Virginian tip on it.
It will be interesting to see if it sells. A custom job with an original six cylinder engine (it had to be four originally as only the 4 was available without a deck lid in the '52 models) and no overdrive likely won't garner the interest that one with a more modern engine would.
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Fid… I like it also.
When I win the Lotto ,I’m building a large man cave and calling it Brown’s Folly.
I’ll have Henry J’s. One of each year built and all the possible drive trains and bodies offered. These will be stock. I’ll also have “Owner expressed” ones and this is the category that the strange colored J just posted on ebay falls into. This is the height of the “osculate my anal orifice” movement in car expression. I know I’m spending a lot of money but I like it!
After my first dozen or so real Js are in house, I’ll build one that is modern technology and with a 51 gator vinyl interior that would make Prince blush!
In the mean time, I do like this one
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Author Topic: I Married Joan - Dented Fender season 2 episode 21 (Read 9 times)
Fid
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I Married Joan - Dented Fender season 2 episode 21
« on: Today at 06:47:41 AM »
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Well, it's on youtube now. The '53 Henry J Corsair Deluxe gets some good screen time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xas5B1Deko
@ Fid
i looks to me that this is the same hood tip as mine! (see 6.03 min) or am i wrong again??
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It does but it's an old black and white film so hard to say how accurate it is. I'll only say there is no factory documentation to back up any other version than the clear plastic one but I will admit Lex, it does look like a solid one on that car.
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Fid ... the noise piece with the 3 wings.....
somebody (i'd do it) make a dental impreshion (or mold ) of it
and recreate some ---again (i'd do it) but i DO NOT have one to make the MOLD from.... :(