Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Judging & Factory Correct Discussions => Topic started by: Fid on April 13, 2010, 12:47:26 PM
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Here's an interesting question regarding judging and maybe some of you can shed some light on it. As those who used to chat on the old chat page many years ago may recall, I purchased my 1952 Henry J Vagabond on ebay in 2001 and shortly thereafter the engine threw a rod through the block and bounced it through the pan as well. The car was originally a four cylinder without overdrive. When I brought it back to life, I installed a 6 cylinder engine with overdrive transmission and used all and only KF parts to do the conversion. The guy who owned the car before had already replaced the original painted hood moulding with the chrome style used on the 6 cylinder models (probably the most common modification I see on '51 Js) and added a horn ring (which four cylinder models did not have). After I put the six in it, I also installed bumper gaurds, a second horn and bright work around the windshields (all features the fours cylinder models didn't have). This means this car is a K523 but has a six cylinder engine and all the deluxe trim.
If I had this car judged at a National, would there be a deduction for the tag not matching or would it receive deductions for each of the individual items I mentioned? Things like a second horn and bumper gaurds were available as dealer installed options but the bright work and hood moulding isn't listed that way or part of any AG. Also the six cylinder engine was not a dealer installed item! I'm sure this has come up before so I'm curious as to what people have to say about it.
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I'm not a judge but I'll bet it would be a similar deduction as having a Chev engine in it. I have the latest judging forms somewhere but I can't find them when I need them. I am sure there is a standard deduction for having the wrong engine and I doubt that you would be nicked for all of the accessories too. What do you judges say?
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I'm sure no double meaning was implied with that thread title, right Fid? ;)
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Whoa... I had to think for a minute on that... No, I didn't mean that and you're right, I should've called the topic "Additional Discussion on judging cars at the National." Cars that have had V8s in them and drive train changes fall into the modified class so they would be judged based on those standards.
My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that a non-tag matching car (save for AG as many dealers added accessories which were not in the AG) should not be allowed to receive gold but beyond that I don't know what to think. I'm interested in what others have to say. My blue '53 Henry J, which I drove to Auburn in 2004 is an original, tag-matching, car but my '52 Vag is not. It is one fine example just the same and to me non-tag matching does not mean "Bad" or "sub-standard" but I also feel it's not fair to judge a car as a Dragon when it was Deluxe with all the Dragon scripts/trim added.
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Pontiac Tempests get turned into GTO's on a regular basis as well as Mustangs turn into Shelby's. The serial numbers always give them away and we see those kind of cars at auctions more than at car meets. The Model A Ford owners have every reproduction part available to make a perfect car, even better than the originals. Over restored! I have heard that the Model A competition once got down to radiator water as everything else was perfect. The clean water won out as coolant and antifreeze was not around when the cars were new in 1928. Our K-F Willys cars are much more complicated than the early cars and we don't have to worry about them all being perfect but for authenticity we have to draw the line somewhere and if two cars look identical but one has wrong components the correct car has to get more credit for being authentic. Many clubs now have a class for driving cars that are not in competition but are fun drivers. Maybe we should look at that class for us so that we can all just enjoy the cars and not worry about perfection.
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Lowell - At the National in Mobile we judged Paul Harrelson's not modified HJ. As we moved to the next car, a former KFOCI President mentioned that the data plate was for a 4 cylinder HJ. Well, do you ignore the comment or do you acknowledge that you missed something important? The member that was judging with me agreed that there wasn't anything other than the data plate that would suggest that the car wasn't originally a 6 cylinder. So we marked the data plate as "non KF" and had to explain that seemingly strange comment to the Chief Judge.
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gordie - The great crippler on big bucks restorations is matching numbers. It isn't the ID and trim plates I am thinking of but number tags on starters, generators, and distributors. If a club relied on data from such sources as Motors manuals, they could have such numbers. But I don't see any point on KF cars, even the Darrins.
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That makes sense to me (deducting for the tag). That is always an issue with the Js though as they lacked so many basic features that most people upgraded them out of necessity. There's a 1951 on ebay right now which has a glove compartment which was not available at all on the 1951 or '52 Vagabonds.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/51-Henry-J_W0QQitemZ130382099608QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item1e5b60f498#v4-35
Looked closely at the photo and you can see the hole in the dash above the ignition switch where the wiper control is on a 1953. Then notice, sure enough, there is no hole in the top center of the dash where the control was on the '51s and '52s so either someone welded a '53 dash into it or put '51 fenders on a '53. Not an uncommon thing to see either. The parking brake handle was also moved to the other side of the steering column on that car.
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I recall an article in a car collector magazine from some 25 years ago. An AACA member who judged Model Ts paid some sizable money to buy a 1926 Model T that had stored since shortly after it was bought. His purpose was to have the best example he could find of a T as it was delivered to the buyer. He pointed out that the car had items from the previous year of production and if I recall, the door handles didn't all match. Henry Ford didn't cut prices to the bone by wasting inventory so it should be expected that small parts especially were used until the supply was exhausted.
Rick Kamen has pointed out that 55 Willys used a lot of left over 54-55 Kaiser items such as arm rests.
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Yes, and KF was no stranger to that when it came to radios and heaters!
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A number of interesting comments that prompt a number of interesting comments back:
1. The basis for judging is how the car would have been built at the factory and (when applicable) equipped with Kaiser-Frazer branded accessories if delivered to its original owner at the factory. As a result, while the car may look exactly like the 6 cylinder version, there are gross errors when it comes to judging IF you judge it based on the build tags (body tag, door post serial number tag, etc).
2. There are numerous cases where dealers and/or distributors put non k-F items (especially things like heaters in the beginning months of the 1947 model year) in cars to make a sale on the spot. Unfortunately, it is still wrong, or should be wrong when it comes to judging.
3. One of the reasons the Factory Special/Modified class was created was to let people who wanted to be creative with their cars get some recognition for good work. In this category, cars that are "dressed up" such as the HJ and 53 Deluxe mentioned here (assuming the Deluxe does not have K530 door post or large body tags, as some Deluxe bodies were pulled from the bank and re-trimmed for final assembly as Dragons). In the modified class, anything goes...the criteria should be based on what was changed, how the change(s) were implemented, the quality of workmanship and overall appearance (chrome, paint, etc) rather than did it get built that way. So, we already have such a class for "drivers" that may have different upholstery, drivetrains, etc.
4. Personally, I feel that if the make/type of an item is correct, the serial number (which might indicate the item was made before or after the car model year dates) should not be a big deal. After all, it is very likely that in the case of earlier numbers, the part sat around and finally got used.
5. Unfortunately, there are a growing number of eBay listings for vehicles where the vehicle is mis-represented. Typically, the listing seller states that "I listed it for a friend" or "the actual owner told me it was" in an effort to get off the legal hook, but that does not work in the courts. This is why eBay began their satisfaction program...to protect buyers from sellers who mis-represent out of innocence, or deliberately execute a fraud in order to make a quick sale to an unsuspecting party. I enjoy reading the lawsuit reports that arise after auctions and private sales when the buyers find out they did not get what they were told they were getting.
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Yes the internet has changed so many things. Owners, creators and sellers of bogus cars can no longer get away with it. Case in point that "1951 Dragon" which had a fake "Dragon" script on it, 10 years ago could've easily been passed off to a new owner as a rare car and the seller could be long gone and difficult to find but now days word spreads fast. Another example is the 1953 "Manhattan" which was a dressed up "Deluxe" listed on ebay a couple of months ago. The seller claimed ignorance, and that could have been true, but he couldn't hide behind that any more when word got out.
With KF cars it's not such a big deal but as gordie pointed out, we now see Camaros that have been forged as "SS" and "RS" models, Mustangs as "Shelbys" etc. and the folks that used to make a bundle doing that are now faced with major hurdles if they list those cars for sale on the internet. Even back in my highschool days in the 70s I had a friend who had standard '69 Camaro. He put all the Rally Sport trim on it and even went as far as hanging a piece of exhaust pipe to the frame on one side to give the appearance that the car had dual exhaust. And to add to it, and I found this part laughable, whenever he drove it, he would push the clutch in one additional time after he got into third gear so any observant bystander might believe the car had a 4 speed! But... he did these things to a car he owned that he wanted to make an impression with. When he sold it, full disclosure was given but I know people who did things like that and ripped people off big time. This is not so easy to do if you advertise on the net.
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The modified class is the proper place for 6 cylinder HJs that should be 4s. There are a good number of such cars of otherwise high quality that would properly be gold award winners in modified.
On the other hand I can remember a few "award chasers" who tried to enter cars in modified class with very minor alterations because the judging standards are sometimes more lenient in the modified class.
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Yes, I thought the Modified class was supposed to be for cars with "Major alterations to engine and drive train." If that is not clearly defined, then anyone who can't locate or afford correct parts such as hubcaps or emblems, could enter their car in the modified class and receive gold.
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That's correct, but we're fast getting to the point where you can't find the stuff.
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Here is something that others would be interested in reading in regards to judging rules. It is the judging rules for the Classic Car Club of America.
Looks like they are focus on functionality, condition, and authenticity. I am not aware that KFOCI even ask if the engine runs.
http://www.classiccarclub.org/pdfs/CCCA%20Judging%20Rules_02_15_10.pdf
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In an earlier post Jack stated, "That's correct, but we're fast getting to the point where you can't find the stuff."
To that I like to say; One of the things I really enjoy about restoring my Kaiser-Frazer (Henry J) is the hunt for the parts I need to do it right.
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And if a car has the "correct" parts then it should score higher than one that does not. That's the whole point.
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And further, if we can no longer "find that stuff," to what purpose is this club if not to make it available through, e.g., the manufacturing fund, etc.? Sorry that this is kind of a side note, but we all have an interest in preserving KF products, and when we see problems, we should step forward with solutions.
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Yes, ben is wrong on this. Modified is for major driveline and/or body changes. I argued last year that a turbo charged 226 Kaiser should be in the Modified class but it was decided (and the Chief Judge did consult with others so it wasn't just an arbitrary ruling) that the car should be in the a Stock class.
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And a word on things that you can't get... Certain things are consumable. If a KF product showed up for judging with the original tires, that would be extremely notable because tires get worn or become aged and dangerous. You would expect tires to be replaced as well as the battery, belts, and spark plugs among other things. Since we are trying to show our cars with the guide "as it left the factory" I would believe a limited acceptance of modern replacements - as the Club has already done with Champion J8/J8C spark plugs - would be in order.
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6 cylinders instead of 4 is a "major" change in my opinion. And of course the engine change is not the only one is it when considering the change from say Corsair to Corsair Deluxe.
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Correct Ben. There is a very nice blue '53 "Corsair" (not deluxe) that I've seen at a few meets and I saw it at the National in Hoffman Estates in 2007. It has a six cylinder engine, which a Corsair would not have had, windsheild bright work, which a Corsair would not have had but a very nice car just the same. I'd say it was the same modification as my '52 Vagabond but the difference is Vagabonds were Vagabonds regardless of engine whereas Corsairs were 4 cylinders and Corsair Deluxes were 6 cylinders. Does that change how it would be judged? All these questions!
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When I suggested that a 4 cyl HJ that had been changed to 6 cyl should be in the modified class I was merely stating my opinion. An opinion can't be right or wrong can it?
Now to the question of turbocharged engines being left in a stock class. LOL
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It's interesting discussion that's for sure. I think everyone knows from past posts I'm not a big fan of trophies or judging but I do enjoy discussing it from a historical/authenticity standpoint. I always keep in mind that these cars are almost 60 years old and none of them have survived without someone doing some type of maintenance to it. I lived through the 60s and 70s when the only place you could find parts was in whatever salvage yard you could locate that still had KF products in it so you often had to settle for whatever you could find to keep your car on the road. This means many of them had non-authentic parts on them. This was a good thing as it kept them on the road and in use but the down side is, it can cloud the historical info about them. It doesn't make them bad cars by any means. Of course there are many out there who don't care about the historical accuracy either and enjoy their cars and the hobby just as much as those who do.
I don't think any conclusions will drawn as a result of this discussion but it is interesting discussion just the same.
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This is a very interesting discussion. I am enjoying the views. I am a purist, and restore my cars as they came from the factory, with the exception, that sometimes i may add a accessory that was correct, but the car didn't have, such as adding a correct radio to a non-radio car. I personally feel, if a car has a option that the dealer could have put in that year, then there should be no mark down for that. Such as if a dealer could have put a swamp cooler on a car to make a few bucks more , then it should not lose any points even though the factory didn't sell them. Having said that, I do feel that changing the 4 to a six, and all the other changes should NOT lose as many points as changing a 226 6cyl. to a Ford ar Chevy v8. I think in Fids case, just losing say, 1 point for the plate not matching the rest, instead of losing a point for each thing changed would be better. Considering the car body shell, could have been used for a 6, and he used ALL kaiser parts, no other brand. The other option, is to have it judged as a modified, and then he can't lose any points. But, thats just my opinion, and since you asked, hahaha. I think when it comes to judging at the Nationals, for the cars that are suppose to be restored as all original, you need to be very specific with original factory options, or dealer available options. Most people who will spend alot of time and money to restore a car like it was new, really do try to make it that way.
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I wonder how Fred Walker felt about the early 1951 Henry Js having a factory heater or radio in them? If his stance was "If the accessory was introduced after the car it is not correct" then any of the early Js with heaters or radios should lose points as those accessories were not available till later in the model year. The radio conversion for the J, part number 100219 mentioned in the handbook, was introduced Sept 18, 1950 so an early car should only have that one in it by Fred's standards. I tend to believe that if someone bought a car from a dealer and decided they wanted to add something that wasn't available at the time they bought the car, there is nothing that would stop them from having a dealer retrofit it. In the case of the Henry J, there were retro-kits that allowed dealers to install the larger/longer door weather strip and the rubber scuff plates in the 1951 models which didn't have these items originally. For that reason, those items should be correct on those cars.
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What are members thoughts on judging of Henry Js that have been Two-Toned per Advance Information Bulletin No. 69 Dtd Nov. 28, 1950? I plan to do this to my 1952 Henry J Vagabond Deluxe. My Paint is 325 (Cape Verde Green Metallic) and Trim 4424 Cape Verde Green Dragon Vinyl. This is not listed in the AIB No. 69 so what would be my options for upper colors?
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Personally, I enjoyed the comment about the KF Manufacturing Fund.
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Mark, check out the cars in this postcard I bought years ago. The photo is Raliegh, NC in the mid 1950s. There is a Henry J visible on the right side, gray/blue '51 without a trunk lid. The third car on the left side is a tutone '52 Vagabond, light green over dark. Likely dealer applied since the photo was taken in 1952 and the car was probably still original
(http://home.comcast.net/~ljfid/Ralieghlo.jpg)
Also, this car was for sale in Northern, MN a few years ago
(http://home.comcast.net/~ljfid/finliner1.jpg)
It appears to have the factory sanctioned tutone schema. It also looks like it had a Continental Kit on it at one time along with those Finliner tailights. It could be the same car as in that post card!
Anyway, these photos may give you some idea of what might have been used to tutone the cars. Looks like Ceramic green on the tops of both... unless they are the same car. The Continental kit license light is mounted on the bumper of the MN car.
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AZ,
I think in '52 Cape Verde changed into Forest Green Metallic
http://www.circlekf.com/kfcars/colorbasic056.htm (http://www.circlekf.com/kfcars/colorbasic056.htm)
Follow the link to View Color Plate and look at sheet 2 for #325
Then look at Service bulletin 319R for two tone combinations that were suggested
http://www.circlekf.com/kfcars/kfsb319r.pdf (http://www.circlekf.com/kfcars/kfsb319r.pdf)
Advanced Information Bulletin 69 Page 1 http://www.circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Advance/AIB072.JPG (http://www.circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Advance/AIB072.JPG)
Advanced Information Bulletin 69 Page 2 http://www.circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Advance/AIB072pg2.JPG (http://www.circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Advance/AIB072pg2.JPG)
Advanced Information Bulletin 69 Page 3 http://www.circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Advance/AIB072pg3.JPG (http://www.circlekf.com/henryj/Reference/Advance/AIB072pg3.JPG)
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The colors on the cars in pix I posted is not Cape Verde green. It's just to give an idea of how they may been done in green but perhaps not as Cape Verde green is lighter. My '52 Vagabond is Cape Verde green. Always thought that was an interesting color name since "verde" means "green" in Spanish. Translates into "Cape Green green"
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Fid,
As you know your Vag and my Vag are the same color. They are both Cape Verde Green (325). The Kaiser-Frazer color chips show Cape Verde Green much darker than what our cars are. I do not think that age or fading has caused this difference. I looked at location on my car that have been covered up all these years and they are the same shade as the rest of the car. I kind of like the shade of the color chip better than what is on the car.
Mark
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Please bear with me here. In 1951 Paint color 325 was Cape Verde Green, in 1952 Paint Color 325 was called Forest Green Metallic. Are you guys saying your 1952 HJ Vagabonds are actually 1951 HJs recycled so the paint would still be the 1951 color?? Just want to know.
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I am not sure you would say 'recycle', but they could be called 'VERY late' '51 Henry J's
Confidential Bulletin No. 70, Dtd Dec. 5, 1951 anounced the 1952 Henry J Vagabond. This was the first time you see Color 325 Cape Verde Green (M) offered on a Henry J.
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Looks like the only dark green offered on the 1951 Henry J was Crystal Green, which almost looks black in the color chips.
Then for the 1952 Henry J Vagabond they introduce the Cape Vere Green (M) and no longer had the Crystal Green. The 1952 HJ Vagabond was offered in Onyx Back.
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The 1952 Henry J Vagabonds were leftover '51s that weren't sold so everything about them is 1951 based except the hood ornament and the script on the side. Most had a Continental tire kit on them but that was available on 1951s too. The Sunstar Cape Verde green Henry Js are a darker green too and I do like it better. A fellow here in a restoration shop ordered me some paint based only on my paint code, 325. I haven't looked at that paint yet but maybe I should. When I had the tire put on the back, I had the paint computer matched because it was more of a 90s metallic. Now that I think about it, the engine compartment and dash are original paint and the color is very close to what's on it. The real difference is in the metallic component which in the 1950s was a little more subdued than it is now.
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1952 Vagabond colors should generally be the 1951 color. This is because in many cases, the bodies were built up as well as other assemblies (like the front clip) expecting to be 1951 model years cars, but no orders from dealers came through for the various combinations. It was like the 1950 model year, where the company had thousands of finished bodies but nobody wanted the cars.
Also, please note I met with Mike Knittel over the weekend duringthe Mid-Atlantic Region meet. We discussed the various formats submitted from different members and we agreed to the following:
1. The format suggested by Jim Betts would be the "standard" format for a document with a current working title of "Restoration Guide". This would include pictures of various features specific to the make/model/year covered. There would also be a general section, that may end up mostly pictures, showing general items such as condition of chrome or paint, and how condition reflects point loss (a little pitted chrome, badly pitted chrome, chrome with areas pealing off or rusted, etc).
2. The management of the KFOCI would make a series of policy decisions covering things like "acceptible vs. original" because you cannot get a something any more and demand would be too limited to make reproduction viable, retrofitting of options, etc.
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My .02c on judging--My 51 J was judged at a national with a Mustang radiator, a Rambler transmission and a Studebaker overdrive, NO points deducted!!
Also my Blue Satin paint is really a Volkswagen color (I forgot the name), green engine paint is really Rustoleum,great match!!
Just depends on your judge!!!
As an additional note, applying to ALL cars, 4or5 color coats followed by many clear coats is NOT the way any cars came from the factory, including K-F products.
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Was the HJ judged in Modified/Special or with the other HJ's? Modified/Special looks at workmanship rather than originality. If it was in the regular HJ class, it's another example of how judges are NOT properly trained, and how judges are NOT presently supplied with the tools needed to do their job properly.
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amkfken: That Is So Special! NOT! AMCs and Studebakers both used T96 transmissions like the HJs. Actually there is a difference between 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder HJ radiators in the texture of the core. For judging purposes, it doesn't make a difference. Of course if your radiator required noticeable cutting of the front fender support sheet metal (radiator yoke & sheet metal in front of it) it would have been noticed - especially if it was crudely done. At the paint store I used to patronize, I was told import colors are often good choices to replace pre-1965 US car colors.
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HJ-TEX,
You stated that, "Actually there is a difference between 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder HJ radiators in the texture of the core." To my knowledge there is no difference between the 4 cyl and 6 cyl radiators as far as the '51 Henry J and '52 HJ Vagabond goes. The 1951 Henry J Combined Chassis and Body Parts List Model 513 and 514 Issued Nov 1951 show one Part Number (KF P/N 209747) for both the 513 and 514. These were tube and fin style radiators.
Can you give more details supporting you statement about them being different 'texture'!
I did find in the Henry J Shop Manual the following on page 55, COOLING, SECTION 4 - RADIATOR " The later model Henry J's use a cellular type radiator while earlier model Henry J's have a fin and tube type radiator." Maybe HJ-TEX you have been mislead by individuals using the wrong style radiator by year.
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Two different part numbers are called out for HJs in the various parts books, BUT there is NO distinction in 4 and 6 cylinder applications. In the 51 "full" parts manual the numbers as listed above are correct. In the "supplement" issued Febb 1953 the radiator part number is 213376 . The odd thing is this number is called out for not only the "true" 52 (and up) models but also for the Vagabond.
I know from various ads that the radiators were supplied by an outfit named Young for the 51s. It may be that the parts number changes were due to changing sourcing to another manufacturer.
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"Young" in Racine, Wisconsin. I believe the shop manual states that the later cars had the cellular type radiator and considers replacing the straight fin type with the cellular type an upgrade. I had a radiator shop go through a cellular type for me last year and the old-timer there told me it was a "great radiator, very well made, hang onto it." But the shop manual and the parts manual make no distinction between radiators used in 4 cylinder models and 6 cylinder models.
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Ben,
I agree with everything you said, but it is odd that in the Parts List For 1952 Henry J Vagabond Model 523 and 524, issued Jan 1952 there is no indication that it had the KF P/N 213376 Radiator opposed to the one used on the '51 HJ.
I think the Part List "supplement" issued Feb 1953 is a bit hard to buy into totally. They use the series column to distinguish between the Vagabond and the '52 Corsairs. A= Vagabonds, B = Corsairs, and <blank> you would rightfully assume is that it is applicable to both, as long as you had something in the column for 523 and/or 524.
My read is that KF P/N 209747 Radiator is the Tube and Fin Radiator manufactured by the Young Co. The KF P/N 213376 Radiator is the Cellular (honeycomb) type radiator, manufacturer unknown.
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Yes it gets a bit confusing!
And then along comes a judge that can't tell the difference between a radiator and a ?
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Hey guys, sometimes we as restorers know more about our cars thru research than the judges who have to know something about all of the K-F products including Willys. If there is any question about any part of your car document it. Copy the parts book page regarding radiators, hood ornaments or whatever the judges may call you on. If you have the proof in a folder the judge will have to look at it and perhaps rethink his position. No one knows it all about our cars but we are usually the authority on our own cars. Be prepared!
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Gordie,
I agree with your suggestion. The only thing is sometimes it is hard to know what the judge(s) will not know.
I would have not thought there would be an issue with a radiator type.
Best,
Mark
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There have been some very good suggestions. I would like to suggest that those interested in being a judge please say so. Then please be prepared to learn EVERYTHING that you can on a particular model, or year. For example, you can be a judge for the manhattans only, or a the Frazers only or perhaps just all 1954-55, perhaps just Darrin. This would make it easier for a judge to know alot on that particuler year, or model, ect.. With information as to what accessories were avialable for that particular car, the judge could be very good. I think, ( my opinion only ) that to be a judge on something , say a HJ, the judge should not have one in the show for judging, this eliminates the judge from being partial ect.. Since I don't own a Hj, or a Darrin I could learn as much as possible, then be a judge, With the judges getting together for discusions on anything that comes up. Due to my job, I can not make the commitment, or I would love to. This is just an idea, but what do you guys think?
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The new judging guidelines will make it much easier for anyone to help in the judging as all of the obvious things will be spelled out and proper accessories will be listed for each car. No one who has a car entered in our shows can judge their own class now and that is at it should be. Colors could be a problem as old paint chip sheets have darkened and are not true matches.but in some cases there will be several cars the same color and often the under hood color is original. Many parts of judging apply to all cars such as paint condition, chrome plating, tire size and white wall width and there are many more but that will be explained in the new judging forms. As a new De Soto Airflow owner I recently went to my first Airflow National Meet. I signed up for judging and had a great experience and learned a lot from my fellow judges. I urge you to do the same at our K-F meets. No one is an expert on everything but it is amazing how much you can learn just by rubbing elbows with the judges and helping out. We need all of your help as a half dozen or so judges can't do it alone and we should all be trying to learn as much as we can about our great cars. Someday all of the old timers will be gone and guess who will be the new experts? We need to start helping out now!
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When assembling the judging guidelines what would be acceptable reference sources to establish a judging guideline:
- Factory Photos?
- Service Bulletins?
- Service Standards Manuals?
- Shop Manuals?
- Parts Manuals?
- Parts & Accessory Bulletins?
- Confidential Bulletins?
- Advance Information Bulletins?
- Press Releases?
- KFOCI Handbook?
- Last Onslaught?
- Magazine Advertisement?
I have my opinion on these - What is yours?
Each and every guideline should reference the source to help resolve challenges I would think.
Your comments please.
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-Factory Photos? I am not sure i would trust these as some of these maybe prototypes, mock-ups, or artist renderings. These maybe used as illustrations to show something that is supported by primary documentation.
The following are great source of information and should be the primary sources of information
- Service Bulletins?
- Service Standards Manuals?
- Shop Manuals?
- Parts Manuals?
- Parts & Accessory Bulletins?
- Confidential Bulletins?
- Advance Information Bulletins?
- Press Releases?
I would not use these as primary sources of information.
- KFOCI Handbook?
- Last Onslaught?
- Magazine Advertisement?
This of course is my opinion.
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Boy, I kick started the discussion, didn't I? The best comment I have seen is Gordie's "I signed up for judging and had a great experience and learned a lot from my fellow judges. I urge you to do the same at our K-F meets." Look, the judges don't hate you or your car and if you understand what the judges are looking for, you may appreciate the process more. I had an idea one time that if you wanted your car judged at the KF National, you had to have served as a judge previously or you were willing to serve as a judge that day. That way you would understand the judging sheet and how the system worked. There were a couple of problems with this idea based on several Club members I know.
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The 1st year I judged was at the Manitowac National. That was the year they had so many 54-55 Kaisers that it took about 7 hours to judge them all. When they asked me what cars I had experience with, I said HJs ,51 & 52 Kaisers. At that time, the Club interest in the HJs was at a low point and I got type cast as a HJ expert. There was 7 HJ/Allstates as I recall and halfway through judging, a guy pulled up with a Darrin on a trailer right beside the HJs. He told me, "I need to get my car judged right now because I have an appointment at 1." I told him that he needed to talk to the Chief Judge (pointing at Fred) first. I am not sure his car even got judged (rules say you have to be registered at the meet to be judged and I doubt he was) and I actually hope it didn't.
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I judged 53Ks at Prescott. Got match up with a Pro and had a great experience. The only down side was Rudy brought a Darrin to the Meet. Took it out of the trailer for the judging and then stashed it back in the trailer once he was judged. Because I was busy judging for several hours did not even get to see what color the Darrin was.
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And I would like to reply to Orphanauto's post. In recent years the judging at the KF National has tried to have teams of judges for a class instead of a single person. Typically this would be one person bending down and getting dirty while a second handled the clipboard. Myself, I have made (at least) 2 clerical errors on judging sheets so I welcome such help. In such a system the person handling the clipboard may not know that much about the cars in the class or even own such a car, but in the process of judging they will learn!
The last 12 years or so it has been the custom for the Host of the National Convention to offer a free breakfast to the judges prior to taking the field on Thursday morning. I think it is disappointing that only a few new members show up to offer their service even with this enticement. Myself, I have invited several members to particpate in judging with mixed to disappointing results. Thus it tends to be the same people with the clipboards on the parking lot on Thursday morning.
But to sum things up, National judging isn't a closed operation. Help is almost always needed and appreciated and it will be educational. And especially, don't b*tch about it if you don't have the experience.
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I do agree it should be a team judging together, I hope it didn't sound as I was implying only 1 judge per model type, ect.. I have never been a judge, but because of my job, I have never been able to make a meet, ect.. This year I hope to learn in a local car show I am helping with. I really would LOVE to get involved in the KF club in many ways. I hope to write a few articles, make some meets and help with whatever needs done. I also would love to engourage ALL of you ( I know some of you already are ) to get involved. I know from other clubs, ect.. I have been with, when you get involved it becomes much more enjoyable. You really get to know other people, and thats what makes the club so great. This is our club, we need to all be part of it. I really am so appreciative of the people in here that make this club so great. I don't want to mention names, because I know I will leave people out. But to those of you who help out this club a big THANK-YOU. ;D I know it takes time, and work, so THANK-YOU SO MUCH. There has been some great suggestions, keep them coming,
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Everyone who knows me knows I'm not too keen on the whole judging process and I don't get too worked up about it but I will agree that it's an experience all critics should partake in. I did it at Auburn in 2004 and found it very interesting. Of course, I was picked to judge the "Modified" class and there were many modified cars there and we were the last team to finish. Because modified cars are judged by different standards, there were a lot of high scoring cars in that class. I don't have the answer as to how to best accomodate the modified class because I wouldn't want to discourage owners from bringing modified cars to meets. The issue I have with judging, and it's been discussed many times, is that there seems to be inconsistencies from judge to judge. Cars I saw get Silver one year, then after correcting much what caused deductions, they come back and get bronze the next time. My true interest in it is not about getting awards or trophies, it's about acheiving excellence in my restorations. The reason I started this topic was to hear people's thoughts on how non-tag matching cars might be judged. It's certainly been an interesting discussion and probably will continue to be. I know that new standards are in the works and I'm sure, even though that won't make the process perfect or foolproof, it will certainly improve it and bring it more credibility. I have offered my input when and where it might be needed. I hope I'm taken up on my offer.
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Questions, Ideas...great!
For some years now, I have championed the idea of a "book" on your car. In this binder you put photocopies of parts book pages, info from service manuals and service bulletins, Parts & Accessories Bulletins and other FACTORY ISSUED documents that show things special about your car, including correctness of variations from the "typical" vehicle of your year/make/type/model. This book is done to show the curious, potential buyers (if you ever decide to sell), judges, etc. Assume you need to include everything rather than wonder what a judge or someone else already knows or not know. This book is the basis for your "brag package" to show people just how neat your car is. If it is a factory document issued during the model year for your vehicle, that should be acceptible.
One of the problems with judging at a National Convention is that most people in the club cannot attend year after year, either due to cost of travel, schedules, health reasons, etc. We have a lot of knowledgeable people in the organization and it is my hope that when the questions on format get resolved (I hope at this year's National Convention) we can tap these brains in creating the first pass drafts of the Restoration Standards and the Reference Sheets. We get this all together, we can produce Judges Training Materials that can be used as needed each year. All this stuff would also be available to car owners so they know what to expect on the judging field...at least that is the plan right now.
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One other thought...what should be used for judging sources...Here's the list we plan to use to cross-check & verifiy details in the materials to be prepared:
Service Bulletins Information from FACTORY shop manuals and Service Standards Books P&A Bulletins
Parts Books & Supplements Confidential Bulletins (K-F) and Trade Letters (Kaiser-Willys) Advance Information Bulletins
Memos and Letters dealing with running changes and items of interest (such as 1951 Kaiser Oil Filter revision by dealers)
You folk may be interested in knowing that KFOCI HANDBOOK VERSION 4.0 is based on all the above materials, and subject to new finds of documentation, should be reasonably accurate to draw off of. Where the source of info is not factory supported from stuff in my files, the material in question is marked as such.
The point is that Judging Standards would be based on FACTORY DOCUMENTS; if an item is included by agreement (such as, because you cannot get the original item anymore and odds are it will not be reproduced) it will be identified accordingly.
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Well said Jack
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Jack has a good point on making a "book" about your car. It would be of paramount value in the restoration of a car. Since digital images are so common these days, a person can show MANY images of the car as it is disassembled as a help in reassembly. It can also show what was done in the way of repairs and replacement of parts. It can document any unique features found on the car or discovered in researching the restoration. When you sell the car this would be so valuable in supporting the price you ask for the car.
But wait, just because you bought a car that was relatively complete, that doesn't mean you can't make a "book" on that car as well. If you drive it, you are bound to make repairs.
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One more comment about Manitowac - At the banquet, Chief Judge Fred Walker asked the Judges who served that day to stand up. None of us did and a lot of laughter resulted.
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I take lots of pictures of every project I undertake on my cars. You should see how greasy my digital camera is! If nothing else, I can share the photos on here, which I have many times, and help others with similar issues.
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The idea of the book is FAR more than pictures of the car during restoration, maintenance or at shows and events. You also want to do things like (if applicable):
1. Page from the parts book showing that the factory called full wheel discs optional for dealer install if you have a base line model with the smaller hub cap; the Confidential Bulletin showing accessories installed at the factory on cars set for retail delivery is an alternative.
2. K-F Service Bulletins or page(s) from the factory service manuals showing changes or different systems (like Auto-Lite OR Delco-Remy electrical systems on non-Hydra matic equipped 1951 Kaisers)
3. Copies of a K-F Parts and Accessories Price List issued during the model year of your car, listing all the factory approved accessories correct for your vehicle.
The book needs to have factory documentation in case a judge gets it wrong. Nobody can dispute the factory materials.
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Jack (kaiserfrazerlibrary)
I am REALLY liking what I am hearing from you and Jim (pnw_oldmags) concerning the judging/restoration guide!
I assume that an original (unaltered) Kaiser-Frazer Body Code Number Plate (aka Data Plate) will be equal to Factory Documentation.
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If this goes as it should, the Body tag (with the paint, trim, etc) WOULD be the decider as to what basic equipment is correct on the car and also be used to identify type of paint (there were separate numbers for lacquer vs. enamel) was originally on the car. I don't know how the paint type will play out at this point, though.
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Jack, You are forgetting the comment I made about Paul Harrelson's 4/6 cylinder HJ. This was a good car and there was no indication from the equipment that it was originally a 4 cylinder instead of a 6 cylinder. The Body Tag and Trim Tag are important, but I think it is wrong to put much attention on them if it is a common car.
For cars other than Convertibles or Darrins, unless the paint is really wrong, the National Judges are not concerned about the color match. At the National in Burlington, VT, there were 5 Velvet Maroon Dragons and I could see differences in color in all but 2 of the cars. They were all nice cars and all but a couple of KFOCI members would not have an issue about the color match.
I won't get into an argument about lacquer/enamel or 1 coat vs base/clear coat, but if you had an early HJ and painted it Big Bad Green, or GangGreen (factory late 60's early 70's pop colors for cars) instead of Aloha Green, then l would have an issue with the color. Really though, I wouldn't have to even look at the trim tag.
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Paint is becoming more of a problem area than first anticipated. Original paints aged differently depending on the supplier (and K-F had several different vendors for paint, especially the more exotic colors). The challenge now is to see how much of a color deviation will be allowed on cars. The Paint/Trim information on the body tag will identify the type of paint (lacquer or enamel) and the color that can be referenced off a vendor's paint chip. The astute owner will note this as a "book" item to identify what the car was repainted with (if it was repainted) and keeping in mind that your local Ditzler (PPG) jobber can get a current formula for all K-F colors by contacting the Color Library at PPG headquarters.
Also, the tags will be used to settle correctness of matters such as wrong engine in an HJ or allstate (4 in a 6 or 6 in a 4) with point deductions made if required.
Please note that it appears the old car hobby has put a lot of faith in the KFOCI's ability to identify "correct original" cars after the AACA fiasco where the judges had to ask the owner of a 1951 Frazer if his V-8 engine was a factory option. I was there when it happened, so I know who owned the car in question, what AACA meet is involved, etc.
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How does everyone feel about powder coating frames vs paint?
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Ha Ha! Yes, I have been told of the event of the ACCA judging of the 51 Frazer with the V8. You know, I had not thought about it until just now if it was a Dale Hammon engine swap.
I believe it was PPG that first had the visible range spectrometer (hand held color analyzer gun for non-science types) as an aid to match car paint. Well that isn't a cure-all because it first needs to test a non-faded color panel such as the inside of a fender, inside of a glove box door or, on 51-53 Kaisers, the back side of the instrument cluster. Then you have the problem of the mixing components.
I have an interest in the color Carribean Coral, well, because I have a car that color and I think it was a standout color as compared to what the other American car companies were offering at the time. BUT- the 49-50 version isn't the same as the 51 version and any version tended to bleach out with exposure to the sun. I thought the package tray on my car was matte silver or Grey, but in fact, it was body color and the sun had bleached out all the red pigment and metallic component. The paint chip sheets I looked at either were not that correct originally (you could tell your car was Carribean Coral rather than Cardinal, but not much else) or chips had degraded. I suspect it was both.
You could not get Carribean Coral mixed at your local car parts store back in the 1950's because that color (and several other KF colors) were listed as "factory pack." What that indicated was that if you wanted that paint, it would be suppled by the paint company directly. The color mixing components were not supplied to the local stores. The reasons suggested where 1) the proportions needed to get an acceptable match were more exact than what could be expected from a local store and 2) the shelf life was shorter than normal for some of the mixing components.
So, unless a paint company retained its secret formula for Carribean Coral AND they still have all the mixing colors available, what they offer would be a best guess. I solved the problem of selecting paint for my car by looking at cars on the road for about 2 years until I found an suitable match. I won't say it is an absolute match (I think even the factory would have had a problem there) but I do think it is better than some attempts at matching that color.
BTW, the last I heard a well known old car parts vendor was still (after more than 25 years) selling Apple Green paint as the correct color for 51-55 Kaiser engines despite numerous attempts by unhappy customers to correct this mistake.
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Powder coating? I don't see how that makes much difference unless you ended up with a finish similar to acrylic enamel with ultra urethane hardener. You would tend to end up with a black that was way too shiny.
There were stencils and crayon markings on the body & frames of these cars but unlike, say Corvettes, they aren't documented so their absence isn't an issue.
Powder coating or even urethane paint should make it easier to keep the car clean and looking nice.
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PPG jobbers should NOT be doing the color match themselves...they should contact PPG Corporate. The company's Color Library keeps original matching samples in a temp/humidity controlled enviornment and their spectrometer breaks down the color into individual chemical components that the computer attached to it identifies to currently produced colors for mixing.
Jobbers get this service at no charge as part of corporate support, the idea being that the company gets the paint sale and the Jobber gets promotion within their local old car communities as THE source for original colors which (hopefully) leads to more business in this manner.
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HJ's comments explain a lot about Caribbean Coral. I like the color, I think, since I've never really seen two Caribbean Coral cars that were the same color and now that explains it. Very interesting indeed.
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I always try to use actual factory photos, but not the ones showing prototype ect.. More of the shop manual or showroom brouchers that show how it really was when new on teh show room, to get it restored correct. I am curious, how does adding a "dealer" installed accesory such as a swamp cooler get judged. I know some dealers would sell and add non factory accesories to make abit more money. This was expecially true right after the war when everyone wanted a new car. I remember a gentleman in the Studebaker club mentioning his father had bought a new car in early 47, He was told they had new cars coming in the next week, but the sales guy made the mistake of taking him in back to gert a part, where he saw more new cars getting all the accesories added BEFORE they would put them on display, so you had to but it with those dealer add-ons. making more money for the dealer. Also curious if Jack, or anyone here knows if any KF dealers ever did that. just curious.
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I would like to point out a judging quirk that the Studebaker Drivers Club had. Studebaker dealers - like any other dealer - tended to doll up their cars and wanted to get rid excess factory supplied accessories. It is claimed that wheel covers from 2 years or more earlier as well as other add-on trim items such as fender spears or hood ornaments were regularly slapped on Studebakers by the dealers. So the National Judging recognized that your 52 Champion might have wheel covers from a 48 Commander because the dealer had a set he wanted to get rid of. This was a bad decision (my opinion) because it opened the door to all sorts of nonsense as well as a general misunderstanding by the regular membership. I talked to man who brought a 57 Champion wagon (not a Scotsman either) to a SDC International Meet. It had a 169 flathead 6 with a Motorola alternator. He seemed to think it was OK for judging because later Studebakers used Motorola alternators (His unit could have actually been off a Jeep, AMC or something else). If he had said it wasn't correct but it worked better for him and he didn't mind the points deduction, I would have understood. He had the impression the judges wouldn't object. Too bad I wasn't around after the car was judged to follow up on this.
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While anyone can do whatever they want to their own vehicles, they should also be aware of the LEGAL implications of their actions, especially when it comes to the sale of their vehicle. Court decisions of late have lifted some Caveat Emptor responsibility off the buyer and on to the seller. Some judges accept the idea that if a seller knows that various items are not original or correct for the vehicle being sold and fails to disclose to the buyer, the seller is intentionally committing fraud. This can result in return of the buyer's cash, and/or fine and/or jail time.
Perhaps now, some old car owners will better understand why the setting up of written standards has to be based on factory documents of what is correct, rather than whatever is on a particular car (usually theirs) as the standard for correctness.
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HJ, you make some good points as everyone here has, but I don't see how a dealer would put hupcaps from a different year and model to get rid of a set, then he would have the hubcaps that came of the car he switched them with. Sounds liek the motorola was switched by the dealer for a repair or something as that is not in my parts book. I also was in the Packard club for awhile, and I bought their judging book. They use factory photos of the engine bays ect, to show how you can tell what is painted black ect.. It also helps show WHERE the decals go ect.. True, the photos are black and white ( in most cases) , so, it can be tricky trying to figure out what should be shiny black verses a dull black, like on the fan, generator ect.. but, these are factory photos from manuals so they are very helpful. Still curious about dealer add ons, such as fulton sunvisors, a fulton traffic light finder, or a swamp cooler. I think these are cool accesories, and if they are YEAR correct for a car, they should not lose a point, even if it's not a FACTORY , but maybe a dealer add on. just my thoughts, keep up the good work and input everyone, this has been a very good topic.
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The comment about the Fulton sun shields reflects a problem we've run into with the standards program because others feel the same way. It should be noted that Kaiser-Frazer and Willys had factory-branded visors for their various car products. These items, unlike the generic Fulton and other aftermarket visors had brackets, hardware, panels, etc, specific for the vehicle(s) referenced in the factory accessory information for the particular part number...in a number of cases, you had to make the generic fit.
As long as the club votes to accept aftermarket stuff (which sometimes was junk) as OK, so be it.
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Orphanauto, the idea was that the dealer put on more deluxe, flashier items. So a car that had plain hubcaps got fancy wheelcovers (small dog dish vs full coverage) and rear view mirrors (outside rear view mirrors were not standard on cars until 1966 and trucks didn't have necessarily have interior rear view mirrors until later).
In the 1970's and 80's dealers were "scotch guarding" the upholstery and applying "color sealer" (plastic based wax replacement).
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Regarding after market dress up items, the Chief Judge needs to remind everyone before judging what is accepted. If it is an easily removed item like curb feelers - or your swamp cooler - I tended to ignore them even though I may not have cared for their appearance. If it was something that replaced a stock item like blue dot taillights or required modification of the car such as drilling a hole, then I would count it non KF.
Clear plastic seat covers are accepted because they can not hide the condition of the seat fabric.
For similar reasons, a steering wheel cover may or may not be counted as non KF. If it hid the condition of the steering wheel, it would be non KF.
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You make a very good point HJ. I think the judges or judging rules should have a basic idea list of what is considered acceptable such as curb feelers,swamp coolers ect.. I personally don't have a swamp cooler, I was just bringing that up as an example of what a dealer may sell to make a few extra bucks, or a new owner could have went and bought right after he bought the brand new Kaiser Frazer. Jack made a great point that since KF did sell thier own sunvisors, it should be that one, not a fulton, or other aftermarket make. Perhaps only 1/2 a point loss for that, just thinking out load. I feel that "year correct" items should not lose points, but, it maybe better to take it off for judging. I personally like to leave a magazine or paper from the year of the car in the front seat, also year of manufactor plates on the car give it that extra cool look. No extra points for that of course, just looks cool. even have my wife and daughter wear their poodle skirts haha,
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To restate what I have said, the Judges don't hate you or hate your car. It is important for the judges to meet before the judging event to 1) sort out assignments and 2) instruct the new recruits and remind the older judges of what to look for. It isn't just waffles, fruit and juice at the judges breakfast.
When Fred Walker was Chief Judge, he had a meeting before the judging started. He took the prospective judges to Charlotte Dayton's son's car (which wasn't to be judged) and he ran over the judging form. Most of the students were willing to count off more on the car than Fred was.
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Regarding outside mirrors there was a K-F authorized mirror for every year K-F product and since they are a requirement for every State there should be at least one installed on all Vehicles. You could not get turn signals on early Kaisers but they should be accepted as a safety issue as well as seat belts. Most clubs allow these safety items.
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Safety Items: Certain things have been allowed for National Judging based on the idea of their "safety value." The most obvious item was a seat belt. So seat belts in a KF car (Darrins may be special issue) could not be charged as non-KF, but they would be judged on their appearance. I would think a clamp-on type outside rear view mirror would be covered by this. Other safety items included air conditioning (Fred had a number of 6V clutches for York compressors made up) and CB radios(!). I have actually seen a 6V CB radio in a 62 VW. It wouldn't be a correct period piece for a 47-55 KF car though.
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Excuse me but am I a little slow, how is air conditioning a 'safety' item? I grew up in Phoenix, AZ and my parents would rather roll down the windows rather than run the AC in the car. I never had to go to the hospital due to not having AC on in a car driving around a hot Phoenix day in the 60's or 70's. I also think a CB radio would not be a 'safety' item. I think they were popularized by that CB/Trucker song. I had one in my 1970 Chevy Nova and I think I used in once to call for a friend to come help me with a flat tire. It is also to note that I had a car stop and help just after I got a hold of my friend.
I think we need to rethink some of these 'safety' items.
Mark
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There was a law in Nebraska in the early 70s which stated that in order to pass the saftey inspection required to license a car, it had to have an outside mirror. My '53 Henry J has one for this reason and it's not the clamp-on type. I did not lose points for it. I should have removed it when I had the car repainted so I could then find the correct type but that slipped my mind.
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Traditionally, safety items were things mandated by various states, even if the mandate came about after the car was built (such as outside mirrors or seat belts). As for air conditioning or other items that may have been medical related, it was strongly suggested that such cars go into the modified class.
The problem is not so much judges meetings, etc, but club acceptance standards coliding with what individuals add to their cars for comfort, performance, etc and expecting their cars to be considered "original" not considering that original meant as the car left the factory. That definition would also take into account cars that were picked up by the first retail owners at the factory...these cars could be equipped with dealer-installed accessories and in some cases a couple items not considered part of the regular option list (sorry, curb feelers, fuzzy dice, swamp coolers and a lot of other aftermarket add-ons were not available). This is based on lists of items that would be installed at the Courtesy Garage on retail drive-aways from Willow Run; the lists are found in various Confidential Bulletins and are supposed to be included in the final version of Judging Standards.
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One other item on a slightly different note....
It's come to my attention that, what I understood to be a hold on standards development (format issue to be decided by officers and directors of the KFOCI at the National Convention) work has continued. I take no responsibility nor do I endorse anything being passed off as Judging Standards that I have not seen and been able to offer changes, etc. If others want to do this and exclude me, that is their right and if that is the sense of the club, it's ok with me. Oh, yes, if that is the case, I will go along with it as a regular member. If the group feels I cannot make a contribution to this as Club Historian, maybe I need to be replaced.
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Jack, you have made more contributions to this club than any other member ever. We all appreciate what you have done and are doing and we are going to be the recipient of new judging standards that are fair and that will really work for the club. Don't be discouraged by anyone who is not on the side of getting these new judging standards implemented. We wouldn't be where we are without all of your input. Keep it coming!
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Jack, Sorry if I have offended you ... If I am the one that has done that on the Judging Guidelines. I am a paper collector and a IT guy who likes to organized things. Not a judge, not a historian. The format for the Judging Standards you took to our Pres and I sent to our Chief Judge was just a recommend format. Your taking it to the Pres and getting his tentative approval on the format was great. Since then I have been working on expanding the sample format some and getting one actually printed in Draft form for the National has been my only goal.
Final approval of content and format is well out of my hands. I am just trying to produce a product for review. I offered to be the assembler of the information and the format policeperson but have not heard back from our Chief Judge who should be responsible for all of the actual content in each class. I do not think our Chief Judge spends much time on the Web. Assembling these documents will take lots of collaberation, and lots of correction. It will not be an easy task but feel it will be worth the hundreds of hours required to complete it.
If this project is to be a success - everyone - especially you have to be involved and provide a lot of input. Jim
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Mark, Even when a person tries through the choice of words, they often fail on typed responses such as found in this forum to convey their opinions where as if we had a face-to-face conversation, the tone of my voice, body language, and certainly facial expressions would add as much to the message as the words. Well, of course AC doesn't add any safety value to a KF car and if someone did have a CB radio in a KF car, it would be 99 44/100% likely to be a solid state 12V unit from 1975 or later. I have seen several setups that were run off of small 12V batteries such as used in lawn equipment. In which case, it would be portable and affect judging about as much as an extra pillow for your rump.
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Once again, I have to remind members that if they want the straight story on judging at the National, they need to show up and participate. When I consider my previous posts, they were mostly about previous experiences. A lot of those things, such as extra points for fog lights or allowing CB radios aren't done any more.
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This topic now spans 7 pages. That's got to be a record on these forums. Obviously a "hot" topic for discussion. It is interesting that's for sure.
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It's always been an interesting discussion item and reflects the desire by people to "personalize" their car with things not original or factory but still want their car to be considered factory correct. More money than ever before rides on how original and correct KFOCI judging at National Conventions evaluates the car.
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HJ_ETEX - - I fully agree with you that members should show up and participate. I also strongly believe that all judging standards should be documented and very accessable to all members. It should not be word of mouth but something a new member can request or is automatic with his membership. I have been to two nationals (Flagstaff and Chicago) and still have never seen anything in writing in regards to many things discussed in this part of the forum. I am strongly encorged that efforts are being made to get this all down in an updated standards. I hope this will include things like a detail list of what 'safety' items are acceptable and how it is recommend that they be incorporated in the car to minimize the impact on the originality of the car.
My earlier comment about AC and CB was not directly at you, but in general how these items just do not seem to fit into 'safety'. I wanted to challenge others to think more about what should and should not be acceptable. We are in a new age of cell phones, internet, and the loss of longtime members due to advance age. We all share the strong interest in Kaiser-Frazer and we are very passionate about it.
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I totally agree with you about having something written down.
When I stood up at the Darrin Breakfast in Chicago, I basically got booed off the podium when I brought up the subject of written Judging Standards. Some of the arguements against were: we have experts that know what is correct; we don't want to be like those Corvette owners who worry about direction of screw slots; standards will scare owners from showing their cars.
Having been a advocate of detailed standards for years, I am very elated that progress is finally being made, and to a greater involvement than I had expected. I do wish we were movng faster. The written standards can also be used by those during the restoration process.
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AZ-HJ: In the instruction section of the existing Judging Sheets it does list the acceptible safety items. No point loss for seat belts, air conditioner, CB, electric fuel pump, outside safety mirrors, oil coolers, directional signals, battery cut-off or clear seat covers..
At the time, CB Radios installed in cars to help communicate between cars in a caravan or during a break down they were probably very much a safety item.
http://www.circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/KF%20Meet%20Entry%20Judging%20Sheet.pdf (http://www.circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/KF%20Meet%20Entry%20Judging%20Sheet.pdf)
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Well do I feel like an idiot! pnw_oldmags you are correct that the existing Judging Sheet does list these safety items.
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I have observed the various discussions (if they can be called that) on judging since about 1980 or so. The interest in having written standards (other than the judging sheets) comes and goes. Mostly it just goes away... If I were a betting man I would lay 10/1 that there will be no written standards...maybe when we are in Kaiser Heaven lol.
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Hi Ben, I wish you were a betting man as I would take you up on this bet. Judging guidelines are well along and need a little fine tuning but they will be here soon and they will be great for everyone including the car owners, judges and the curious. Jack Mueller has worked hard formulating this and the various years are being checked over by experts and we will all be proud of them.
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Terry T: I thought the Darrin people were further along on judging standards than the rest of the KF Universe. Judging of the cars seems to be a lot more exacting!
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But an important aspect of judging has been touched upon in the previous posts even if the authors have not realized it. For a number of years, the judging forms were closely guarded. You could get your form if you asked after the judging ceremony, but you could not get a blank form. We published a copy in the Quarterly back around 1987 which was a real breakthrough - BUT it was not what would be used the next year.
It used to be I would visit members and when I heard complaints about judging I would ask if they had the judging sheet. Most did not know they could request the sheet after the awards presentation. With 2 members, they actually had the sheet and I went over what was marked and gave my interpretation of why things were marked. One of the 2 I thought the items counted off were reasonable, but on the other, well, I thought the judge had been especially kind.
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Here is something to think about: What about including the Judging Sheet as part of the KFOCI Handbook?
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Mark: There are 2 problems about including a judging sheet as a page in the KF Handbook. 1) The Judging Committee (and there is one) reserves the right to alter the form. There are revision numbers at the bottom of the form. 2) The KF Handbook is not altered that often so any form that is included would be quickly out of date.
So frankly, it would be more appropriate to print it in the Quarterly.
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Here is a better thought...post a copy of the form on the website. It would be the responsibility of the judging standards committee to make sure that any revisions or new releases are immediately sent to the webmaster for posting unless they get instructions on how to post it themselves.
If it goes with a QUARTERLY there is a substantial time lag for release and if you were not a member when the QUARTERLY went out, you could miss it.
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HJ-ETEX
Darrin judging may be more exact in theory but since nothing has been written down, judging has been left to the "judging experts" who offtimes have been no more than someone who doesn't have a Darrin at the show!!
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Gosh Terry, I have been hearing all these years about "this sort of upholstery stitching was ONLY done on cars #xx to #yy." I thought such issues had more or less been settled - well, I should know better because I got into the middle of the Darrin Breakfast at Matamoras (and kept my mouth shut). If you (Terry) had said there were 6 Darrins in the parking lot, one member would have have claimed there were only 5 while another would have claimed there were 7. They were a contrary bunch that morning. I wanted to express my appreciation of your efforts at the time, but I didn't find an opportunity there. I intended to use the phrase, "Herding Geese."
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There is a big problem with leaving judging to "experts". What if there is an accident and some of the experts get killed, or they die from natural causes. All that know-how is gone with nothing to pass on. That's why I wrote BUILT TO BETTER THE BEST, took the time to do KFOCI HANDBOOK V 4.0 and am now trying to line up a safe home for my stuff.
The Ypsilanti Public Library historical's section was contacted, but when they found out how much stuff was involved, they said they didn't have room for it, and has suggested the county historical society. I hope to meet with someone during the weekend of the Orphan Car Show.
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At this point, nobody knows for certain what is right on a lot of points. They are relying on cars for the "correct" stuff and what do you do if someone pulls out a factory document--like a Trade Letter from Kaiser-Willys Sales Corporation covering 1954 Aero Willys models--that shows what you thought was not correct.
Yes, if we get written standards based on factory materials rather than "it looks ok to me" type thinking, there will be a lot of people who will take hits on their vehicles but at least it will be fact-based rather than assumptions.
This should have been done c.1959 or 1960 rather than trust 1 person to know everything.
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Jack: It could not have been done in 59-60 for several reasons. 1) Documents were still confidential. 2) KW management was experiencing a real apathetic period. According to one account I have read, middle management wasn't particularly interested even in recording sales figures. 3) No one expected the vehicles to hang around as long as they did, even the owners at the time.
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I have to disagree with some of the last post:
1. There were a number of Kaiser-Frazer/Kaiser-Willys dealers either still operating at Jeep stores or offering service. Others were being bought out by club members, and the stuff for sale, so I have been told by the people back then, included paperwork (Confidential Bulletins, P&A Bulletins, etc) and in many cases the material was discarded. Some of the materials in my posession came my way in the mid or late 1970's, so there was nothing "secret" about it. This is the kind of thing I talk about when I refer to factory-based references for standards.
2. I first met Fred Walker in 1975 and was amazed that there were no written guidelines of any sort for judging cars at a National Convention (Monroeville PA). I was equally amazed that I, with virtually no experience at that time, was allowed to be a judge at a National Convention. Fred's comment then, as in later years was that he could tell you what cars to use as reference points. When I asked about curb feelers on one car, he said that was ok because he sold them to the car owner.
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Yes Jack, a lot of things were 'correct' because Fred had them for sale.
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It is my belief that at present, there are two factions working to end the practice of judging. One group is fed up with the perceived incompetence of the current judging process (and there is a LOT wrong here) the other reflects car owners who know that a good, factory-based system for details, etc, would find their pristine car may not be so pristine car as they thought (which in turn lowers the car's value).
I am not saying that we go overboard for matching numbers on things (yes, there is a way to tie back serial numbers and date codes on parts to when a car was built). I am saying that we put it in writing, and make sure that car owners as well as judges literally work off the same page. This can only happen when the Board of Directors stands firmly behind the need for change and do what needs to be done rather than being concerned that their actions may offend someone.
Going back over posts in this department, I still maintain that the problems with judging go back to the beginnings of this club. The information in a confidential bulletin, upholstery book, service bulletin or other factory document should have been captured to form good judging standards that would stand scrutiny. As is with so many organizations (not just the KFOCI) nobody thought ahead to a time when the ex-dealers and factory people with such knowledge would no longer be alive & that NOS parts might become very hard to come by.
I have tried at least 3 times since I became Club Historian to get written standards and judging guidelines in place (so car owners would not only know what judges would be looking at, but, perhaps more important, HOW they would look at things) and each time was shot down by either the Board of Directors ('written standards were not necessary" was what the one Board member said back in the 1990's when Barbara & I lived in Madison WI and he came to town for a dairy convention) or the Chief Judge who felt the judging information was on a "need to know basis" and that meant judges only.
I leave it for the entire membership to decide but I close with a question. If the club does not offer a means to tell what is right or wrong on a car--especially a new restoration or upgrade--who will?
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I very much agree, written judging standards for everyone, so we are all on the same page. No hidden or secretive judging criterion and if the Board doesn't agree………Change should be in the air!!!
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As club president, I fully endorse documented judging standards - and using them at national meets where vehicle judging is employed. And, I put my money where my mouth is, I am one of the few club presidents who regularly judges at meets. I also mentor those who wish to become KF club judges. Not boasting...just sayin'!
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In the early years of our club it was mostly a social time and for the love of the cars. There were few members who cared about exact correctness of our cars but as more and more people actually paid a shop to restore their car and then had big bucks invested it affected the values of all of our cars. As more and more of these restored cars got judged we were woefully unprepared to judge them as it was done mostly by some of the older members memories and they resisted any changes in their systems. There were very few of us who collected literature, and magazine ads and owners manuals and that material was what many of us learned about our cars from. It was much later that Service Bulletins, Accessory Bulletins, Confidential Bulletins from the factory to the distributors and dealers, data books and other specialized information began to make an appearance at swap meets and thru literature dealers. That material rarely came complete but had to be bought a few pages at a time and took years to try to assemble a complete collection and I doubt if anyone has it all. There was just too much published by many sources but that material contains all of the necessary information on each of our cars. Jack Mueller is an avid collector and has one of the largest Kaiser Frazer literature collections and has been the main drive to get new judging standards in place. There was resistance by some of the older members to make any changes but the time is long past due to get accurate information about our cars to the members, judges and car owners. Jack is close to having many of the years documented and then it will be presented to the Chief Judge and Directors for implementation in the judging system. New information is still being discovered and the judging guidelines may need minor changes for years to come but the basic information is there and ready for us to learn from, put to use, and enjoy. It has taken Jack years of digging through all of that paper and compiling it into useful guidelines. It won't be ready for this year but expect big changes in the near future.
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Additionally, much can be gained by documenting un-restored cars.
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The AACA is a kinder ,gentler place since the institution of the "Historical Preservation of Original Features" category. Not every one can afford to dismantle the entire engine compartment and then detail each piece as it was reassembled as my friend did in route to his Grand National award. There is still room for those who strive for cosmetic excellence, but the owners of "survivors" are just as enthusiastic and their percentage of participants is increasing. Might increase our turnout if you did not feel you needed a $8,000 paint job to compete.
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Ah, but how do you know they are unrestored cars? Did the seller tell that to the buyer? Is the seller correct in the first place? That's where the factory documentation is important. It will support the seller's claim or will prove fraud depending on how the car matches the documentation from the factory.
Oh, and regarding the AACA. They come to US when they have questions on the judging field at an AACA event because they don't know themselves.
Unless the people running this club make the effort to address the various issues you bring up the result is what we have now.
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I do believe the club needs standards to keep members knowledgeable on their cars, but because of all the arguing and incorrect judging I will not have my car judged anymore. I do not care about trophies anyway but I do want to increase my knowledge of correctness.
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There are many unrestored cars out there.
My Darrin was one, properly documented, then restored.
My Henry J was another, now slightly modified.
Single owner cars are rare, but out there.
One such Darrin showed up at the National in TX several years ago.
I believe that it was the hit of the meet.
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I'll add my 2 cents to the discussion. Is that unrestored vehicle one that has been in the garage for the past 50 or 60 years and not operated or worked on since it left the dealership, or has it been used and maintained to be driven? If it has been worked on to be driven, I'll argue that the replacement parts and/ or workmanship is incorrect and not factory. Factory documentation, and an original vehicle to back up the factory documentation should really be the only standard to determine "correctness". That being said, because in reality that ain't happening, a set of standards as close as possible should be adopted and stuck to. If the standards already exist, then how, some 65 years or so later, can you change the standard based on a vehicle that has been repaired or fixed with parts to "make do", or by someone that is less than 80 years old that never worked on an original vehicle. Personally, I think unless the vehicle is in a museum or static collection, the correctness is not as important as the safety and esthetics are. If you folks are driving and enjoying your vehicles, who cares how exactly 100% correct the vehicle is. If it's close to correct and is within the already established standards for judging, keep the standards as they are and publish a guide so everyone knows what to expect. I know some folks will argue about this, but this is a hobby to have fun and enjoy. Let's not get our socks in a bunch over trivia.
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The AACA has a class called HPOF, Historical Preservation of Original Features. This means the vehicle must exhibit the features it was "born" with. The AACA will allow a repaint, for example, but will deduct points for it. Items like incorrect hose clamps, headlight bulbs, seat covers, etc, will also cause point deductions.
As our cars age, it becomes less likely that a totally original KF product exists. I'm sure there are a few...one such purported car will be sold at auction next weekend here in Ohio. If we were to introduce a class in our judging system for HPOF cars, we would need decide what constitutes originality. Replacing normal wear items shouldn't disqualify a car from an award, but points should be deducted if the replacement items are not of original appearance or construction.
Judging always opens a can of worms. Everyone has an opinion and rarely do two agree. So, the best we can do is build documentation to support the judging rules and then let the cars meet them. If its found that a rule cannot be met, then the judging team will do what's needed to determine why it cannot be met. For example, if a rule states a certain spark plug must be used but the plugs are no longer available, then an alternate plug may be allowed - but that must be documented.
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There could be a serious interest in having a "under restoration" or similar type class for judging. Cars in this category need only be operational with running motor, brakes, etc. Any restoration work done would be judged on the basis of a finished car AS A GUIDE ONLY to the car owner. The judges would also talk to the owner of the vehicle. How much research has the owner done on their car? Do they know the general history of the car (how many were built, significant features, etc, NOT who owned it when type stuff). Also, what are the owner's plans for completing the work. The award given is different from the gold-silver-bronze of restored or original cars. What form the award given is the part I am having trouble with.
Over the years I have found many people--myself included--who did not bring a car to a KFOCI function because what I had at the time was not restored. Then, I got smart. I brought the car to events (KFOCI or general) and showed it as a work in process. I identified the work done, the plan for completing the restoration and general history of the car (when built, equipment when new, etc). People talked to me about where to get parts for a Frazer or a Kaiser, who could do work on the cars, and so forth. I have no idea if any of those folks were only tire kickers or if they ended up joining the club but I felt better about what I had and could justify taking it out.
What do others think.
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For many years the Mericles awarded the "Cracked KF Plaque" at the Seaway region meet. While tongue in cheek, its intent was to showcase a car brought to the meet that was in the worst condition, but with the best intention of restoring it. For a while, the award was quite an honor and yours truly won it by driving some real messes to the meet.
I think it would be a great idea to resurrect the plaque (I have located it) and award it at the national meet. Of course, potential recipients would have to be good natured and understand the intent of the plaque - to interject a bit of levity into what can be a contentious affair. On the other hand, awarding someone the plaque may be all they need to kick start a restoration!
While a nicely restored car gets its share of attention, an original car that's seen better days always gets more!
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Okay, I've been following this discussion for quite some time now. To summarize (so we can stop talking about getting it and actually get it done):
1. Written judging standards are needed.
2. The standards need to be documented by factory literature and photos.
3. A format needs be created for "the book of standards."
4. Judging is optional.
5. Judging is a tool for improving one's vehicle's authenticity.
So, when can I get a copy of the format so I can begin work on the Willys Aero judging standards? I've been waiting several years now.
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Several years ago, it was attempted by several of us to create a format for these Judging / Restoration Manuals. The first 75% was easy. Organizing it around the KFOCI Judging form and describing to the best of your ability how it should be. Shocks should be black.
Once you start getting year/model specific the manuals gets ugly. Do remember that some classes have a dozen different models. The Willy Class --- whow. And don't forget some models have variations within a given year. The manuals get very hard to use on car when the manual says things like: In this year it should be like this, but if your model number is this then this stainless trim should be narrow and your mirror should have a night flip or not. The exceptions and variations seemed endless.
My conclusion was that an online database that would display features and characteristics for the select year/model was the only answer. As making 100+ manuals is not practical. From my perspective this is the only solution. The exceptions / whatabouts will drive you nuts otherwise.
There is another problem ... Are you restoring to how did the vehicle leave the factory or the dealer? If it is factory - you best remove most of those radios. Dealers seem to have done lots of creative things to sell Kaisers. Special paint, last year's radio, Manhattan hub caps on lesser model.
Anyway words like "always", "must have" can not be used. So Restoration Guidelines maybe but never expect a document that will not be challenged by someone - just because a KF document says so -- does not make it so.
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One of the problems people had with judging is that they went overboard. If you check Confidential Bulletins you will find that various years, makes, series and body types could have been ordered from the factory with heater/defroster, radio and other options factory installed on all cars. Other cars, if delivered at the factory were equipped with all the required dealer-installed accessories before the car was delivered.
Clean house, start from scratch and put the information together. I wish the person doing this all the luck in the world (sincerely) because I tried at least 4 times in the last 10 years to get the project going and got no support from the member-elected Board of Directors so someone else can bang their head against the wall.
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The time is now. The members want it as well as car owners and the directors and officers of the club. Jack has indeed been knocked down many times in the past but much work has been done and hopefully everyone will pitch in to make this happen. It has to be done in such a way that the judges can pick up the guidelines and start using them in a user friendly manner. Major items such as paint condition, tire sizes and types, headlight types, chrome condition, wiper blades, and other topics work for all of the cars and can be listed separately. We need photos of new cars in each body style showing correct features such as wheel covers and accessories when possible or maybe a separate accessory section showing which year accessories are correct for what year Kaiser or Frazer. Some accessories carried thru for many years such as the tail pipe extention and plastic white walls. I have a collection of approximately 400 factory photos of our cars and I would be happy to loan them for this purpose. Lets get it started!
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Here is a PDF of the Henry J Class that was being developed prior to the San Diego National. This document has several years of work in it and probably would require several more years to make it close to complete. It is a 2MB Pdf so do have a good internet connection before opening.
http://circlekf.com/restorationguidelines/class04_henryj/cls04.pdf (http://circlekf.com/restorationguidelines/class04_henryj/cls04.pdf)
Browse through it and you should see the difficulty picking out one model from the 14 models it covers.
From a restoration perspective it seems an application that would allow an owner to enter their model number info and have only that model come up is the only way to go.
From a Judging perspective - Maybe a Tablet Computer application the judge takes to the field to access that same database and display JUST information for the model being judged.
Oh did I mention to gather the information ... maybe 2 or 3 volunteers for each class. All volunteers with thick enough skin to take the nay sayers sharp tongues and then we have the "what about professionals" in our group.
Not trying to be negative just realistic.
I am a bit discouraged as I have some A HOLE hacking my CIRCLEKF website deleting information. Their last brilliant session they removed about 60 of the 100 user profiles you nice people have entered. Now I have to waste a month coding more security instead of concentrating on adding content to share with everyone.
Travel On, Jim
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Wow! A great job with obviously lots of work and research involved. With a quick two hour reading the only changes I would make is to give the correct white wall tire width with no guesses and no + or - guesswork as the present judging sheet uses and to fill in the missing photos that you need and to eliminate the list of known literature sources from the guidelines but to have them as research material if needed. Very Impressive!
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This was handed over to the those in control at the San Diego Natl with several other Classes with virtually no feedback.
When were you elected VP??
I know it is not perfect but feedback like what you just gave is what is needed to make it better.
Should the document be for judges or restorers? If it is both seems Literature sources belong in here.
Great example with White wall width... Do you use factory photos as the source or do you know of a KF Source in writing that states what is "correct"?
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Hi Jim, I am just one opinion but I feel that the judging guidelines need to be just like what you have made up but the judging sheets need to be streamlined down to the important facts needed for judging the cars accurately. Jack also presented great guidelines to the board of directors and the chief judge and got no support either. It is obvious that we certainly have the talent, resources and need for these new guidelines and while everyone is receptive to doing it I will do all I can to get them implemented. They will probably be a work in progress for a while but together we can get most of the missing answers and have guidelines that we can all be proud of and they will be accurate. The judging sheets need to be very user friendly right from the start so that all of us can understand them. They should make it very easy for anyone with interest to be a judge as they will have all of the pertinent facts about the car they are judging in their hand. This should make our judging consistent and accurate. In answer to your question I have been Vice President since 2013 but have been trying to get judging guidelines implemented for many years. Now it is going to happen.
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It's nice to see that there are so many perfect or near perfect vehicles that have to be judged at the divisional or national meets. When do the correct screw heads and bolt markings come into play, or how many stitches on that upholstery are correct? Isn't there a current set of standards being used now? With an average of 40 or so vehicles at a national meet that are judged, I think ( my opinion now) is that a stricter or more complicated judging standard is not required. If there are 2, 1954 blue Kaiser Manhattan 4 door sedans that are being judged it shouldn't be very hard to determine which one would earn a higher score. And if not, then both should be equally scored. I have not heard of too many club members spending 70K or more to restore their car, mainly because we are doing it ourselves and are suppose to be enjoying it. Kaiser Frazer vehicles don't bring much money when sold, and again my point about judging standards for us, is let's not take ourselves too seriously. If the standards are there, basic standards that would apply to all the vehicles in general, publish a list and let us go crazy. When there gets to be too many great cars being shown, then the standards can get more specific and complicated. Some one posted earlier wondering if an owner would not bring their Kaiser or Frazer to a meet because it was not "show ready". I don't see a need for KFOCI to be like the AACA when it comes to judging rules. It's easier for everyone including the judges if the standards are kept to a minimum.
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If we own a nice but deteriorating car and wish to repaint or reupholster it it would certainly be nice to have information to do it correctly even if we decide not to. Last year at Puyallup we had a modified 1947 Kaiser awarded a Silver trophy when this particular car shouldn't have scored more than 40 points out of 100. That must have been a real insult to those members who have worked very hard on their cars to attain a silver level. Our judging awards should be based on a certain standard and have integrity. Of course the main purpose of our club is the fun of the cars and the friendships when we all get together but if we are going to have judging let's do it with accuracy. That is why we need the judging guidelines.
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I agree Gordie, but aren't there guidelines in place now? What has been going on for years as a judging standard? Not a "good ole boy system" I hope. And that is my point, I thought that there was a semblance of accuracy and integrity in the club judging standards. I guess I have been stuck in the Darrin part too long.
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To quote former Chief Judge Fred Walker, "I know everything there is to know. You'll do ok if you buy all your parts from me or, better yet, have my shop do your restoration work". We have no decent written standards; things vary from judge to judge and from meet for the same car.
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I did not think I was the only one. I inquired about restoring a Henry J and I was assured I would get a first if I did.
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Wow...to read this thread one would think our judging process is seriously flawed. Well folks, it's not. Rather, it is evolving. We've moved on from the days of the "one man show" and are today working to assemble a set of standards that will accurately capture how a Kaiser, Frazer, or Willys vehicle was equipped when it left the factory.
I judge at KF national meets and have done so for many years. I've judged with the Classic Car Club of America and I'm also a concours judge with the Mercedes Benz Club of America so I feel I'm qualified to to look at our process and how it compares to other organizations. In many ways, for a single marque club, we've made great strides in building our judging system, and in still others, we have room to grow. But, to grow we need to have people dedicated to building the standards and still more willing to execute them on the show field. If you're one of those folks who attends our national meets, consider becoming a judge and volunteering your time to better the process. Judging standards are only as good as the folks who use them and if we can build a core group of tenured judges, I guarantee you'll see positive results.
So, let's stop the complaining and focus those energies on bettering the judging process.
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I offered to judge at the 3rd National I attended. Fred didn't trust me so I got stuck with the HJ/Allstate class. I am a strong believer (and I believe our current President would concur) that you should not b*tch about judging until you have some experience in KFOCI judging. You think the same group of people are judging the cars at every convention? Move your butt and join in the judging! May be you will understand what the judges are looking at.
I have number of KFOCI friends that show up at the Convention and I have convinced a number of them to join in judging at least once. I would like at least 50% of our members to be able to claim that they had participated in judging.
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Now really Fred Walker didn't care for HJs and as a result didn't know that much about them and wanted to be rid of the HJ parts he got when he cleaned out the dealers. That ties into why my 1st judging assignment was HJ/Allstates.
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I too was reluctant to judge for many years but have been doing it for the last few years and have learned more about the cars than I ever knew before. The new judging guidelines which won't be available this year will make it easier and much more fun to judge. Please sign up at Gettysburg if you are attending this year. Get to know more members and more about our favorite cars and help speed up the judging for everyone.
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Before you complain about a questionable condition car getting an award, you should specify what class the car was judging in. In particular, the Modified Class is judged on condition alone, not originality. However, to qualify for the Modified Class, the car has to have a major body or drive train (mostly interpreted as a motor swap) alteration. Funny paint, wheels or upholstery isn't sufficient.
Some people at various Conventions tasked with judging Modifieds took off for originality anyway. On the other hand, I had to take off not just 1 point but max points (2 points) on one modified car because the tread was so separated on a tire I really thought it would throw if driven less than 10 miles.