Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Darrin Forum => Topic started by: jake on August 06, 2014, 10:57:28 PM
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1954 Kaiser Darrin.
Will the Kaiser Darrin sell for 500k some day..????
Next 10 years. 20 ..????
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I think the better question is will the Darrin sell for 15k in a few years as that has a much higher probability.
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Chris
There is an episode of "What's My Car Worth" on tonight on Velocity channel that is featuring a Darrin. This is Keith Martin's show on Velocity that profiles a few cars in a 30 minute period. He does market analysis that shows high, low and average and will look at all sales in the last calender year.
Then we either see an actual Darrin go across the blocks at an actual auction or he has his 3 buddies buy the car from a private seller or both. In any respect, as long as the car for sale is a decent car, then that should give you some idea of the present market status.
I don't want to offend any of the Darrin owners that stand to gain a lot in their overall wealth portfolio if Darrins go higher in value but my belief, it's just an opinion Terry, is that that $100,000 six figure plateau will weigh significantly on the few wealthy buyers we will see over the next 10 years that can afford these fine cars.
I believe the Darrin and it's 50's competition will continue to hold strong on values as we s-t-r-e-t-c-h further and further away from what is perceived as the golden age of the automobile as a glamour purchase, that being approximately 1953-1959, not necessarily a finned car.
The 70's sure put a scretching halt to high value perception to cars. Leaving "exotics" and a few limited production cars to fill in the blanks.
Anyway, watch tonight if you have Velocity and see what the current feeling is about Darrins.
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Thankfully few of us play the pass around game of the speculators who buy paintings and cars simply to make a profit. This is a big issue in the Lincoln Mark II market. That group has seen a few cars come out of garages and the like lately that sold initially for $8000 or so and then were "flipped" 2-3 times to get up to $30,000.
I think it is a bad part of the hobby that so much emphasis is on "What is my car worth".
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Well I was way off and have to eat crow, again.
The Kaiser Darrin for sale was one of 10 or so that remained with Darrin unsold, and it was one he put a 1954 Cadillac V8 in.
The car was a greenish/yellow and in nice shape. Wrong looking wire wheels. The show provided these statistics:
435 Built
Low Price: $91,300
High Price: $165,0000
Avg Price: $103,833
This tells me that a few very nice Darrins are coming in higher, but not enough to create a higher mean average. Therefore, most Darrins are selling for $91K to $120K.
This car sold for: $145,000
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The car you referred to was not a Dutch Darrin modification.
I drove that car in its unrestored state, sat in the passenger seat of the truck hauling it to the Detroit area,...and watched the transformation from a 161 F-head to the Caddy engine.
This was the first of 2 that the new owner did that way.
One is in a local museum with a poster claiming to be a Dutch Darrin car.
Finally, I have never heard of any one ever seeing a true Dutch Darrin V8 car.
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There are a few things to remember here:
1. The provenance (history) of the car (owners, special equipment, etc) weighs heavily on what it could sell for.
2. Condition is significant.
3. Having the right buyer at the right time is most important.. I have seen some Barrett-Jackson cars sell for higher than expected because one person present just happened to fall in love with the car.
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Terry
That is an interesting addition to the story. Is there any truth that a few Darrins remained unsold and were retrofitted? Sound like no.
Chris
It really is about enjoying the cars, so yes it would be great for the masses if the price dropped to $15,000 but I don't see that ever happening.
Jack
You are correct about provenance and location of the auction. Crazy money, place in the auction sequence, plays a part in final price.
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Through out the years there have been many articles written about the 50 Darrins that Dutch dug out of the snow and retrofitted with several different powerplants.
The stories are probably true, but no one has ever claimed to have seen one of these cars.
My spin...If you had a Darrin with a big V8 under the hood, you probably raced it---why wouldn't you?
...and if you raced it back in the 50's, you probably turned some end-over-ends in the infield.
END OF STORY! and the car.
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Maybe this will help in the discussion of Cad powered Darrins. Check out this link. SCCA also has Laura Cunningham registered as an entrant to some Torrey Pine races in the later 1950's. Here's the link: http://thechicaneblog.com/2010/02/11/more-unseen-racing-film-torrey-pines-1954/. The website Forgotten Fiberglass has a lot of Darrin articles as well. Darrin #50 is about 3:15 into the video.
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I am not a Darrin Owner, but I have done some work on a Darrin. I took the pictures of a Darrin frame on top of a of a HJ frame that appeared in a KF Quarterly so long ago. Most Darrin owners don't know what their underside looks like.
1) An HJ frame isn't very substantial. They were built to a price point, not overbuilt. The F-head 161 conversion added considerable weight and the extensive cutting of the frame probably doesn't add any strength . Replacing the F-Head 161 with a Cadillac V8 and (probably a HydraMatic) adds 600 lbs over what a the F Head 161 + T96 OD trans weighs. It reminds me of the (several) young guys around here that put Ford/Mercury 429s in Pintos. Sounds impressive but in real life it is probably like sitting on a hand grenade. Good maybe one time in a straight line, but crap on a road course where you have to turn the wheels.
2) Once again, if there were any Darrin modified cars with Cadillac V8s made in any number (that is more that 1) they would be known and have some documentation.
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I have 3 Darrins
One is #60 I originally bought in 1961 and made a drag race car out of it. I used the stck chassis, installed a ford beam axel an olds rear end a 440 cu in big block chevy engine. I ran that car for years at speeds of 150 mph in the quater mile the stock Darrin frame which was a modified Henry J was very strong.
My 2nd car # 103 has a stock chassis and I put in a ram jet 502 big block with a 700 R4 transmission and it works great.
My 3rd car is #51 and I installed a 1954 331 Cadillac engine with a 1953 olds hydramatic trans. It was a very difficult install but I managed to do it. I was Able to keep everything in the stock location. I had to section the frame to move the steering box about 1/2". The transmission was another difficult project but it works. The stock 455 to 1 rear end has to go it is way to big for this engine/trans combination. Overheating was a big problem but I have solved it using the stock radiator a 6 blade steel fan and a electric pusher fan.
I tried to find pictures,documentation or anyone who had seen one with no luck. I think this Dutch Darrin Cadillac rumor is a myth.
My creation was at the last Kaiser convention and I am now in Chicago And have driven it to at least 10 shows and it works great. I am using the stock rearend but the hydramatic trans shift eradic.
I will change the rear end when I get back home to arizona.
It can be done but not an easy install. Also it requires a 12V negative grd change.
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Here are some photos of what I did to my Darrin Chassis so that it could withstand the extra torque and weight of a V8, and handle, stop, and ride like it should. There was no way that I would depend on the stock chassis to be safe. The original setup was marginal on a good day with the F-Head and stock brakes.
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I do not own a Darrin, which has always been my dream car, but I have followed the story of the extra bodies bought by Darrin for years. I recently came across and bought a photo of Darrin's showroom in Hollywood advertising all the cars that He modified/built as Darrin Sports
Cars.
The showroom has a Darrin in the front window and advertises both the 6 cylinder motor and the Caddy v-8 as power plants. If he advertised the Caddy V8 it would seem that he found a way to squeeze it in somehow and a real V8 Darrin must be around someplace.
(Unfortunately just before getting married over 40 years ago I found a darrin for sale locally for $3000 which we had saved for a down payment on our first house. Wish I had the sense at the time to buy the Darrin against strong opposition. The house would have just been a little later.)
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If anyone has or comes across a picture or documentation of a real Dutch Darrin built car with a caddy engine please post it so all of us can put this rumor or myth to rest. It is a story that has really grown legs.
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I saw one with Big Foot driving it.
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I assumed the "100 were purchased by Dutch Darrin" thing to be true as it is all over the internet and even in an earlier publication, the "Encyclopedia of Classic Cars", a 1998 hardback book. So all Darrins with Caddy engines were retrofitted later or by private owners?
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Yeah, and Studebakers are still built in Canada.
In my 35 years in KFOC and hearing that story all those years, I have never even heard of a rumor of one in actual existence. Everybody talks about them but none have ever been found. I'm guessing that Dutch offered them thru his showroom and maybe made one and wanted to build more, but never got an order for one so never made any more. He was from the old school coach builders - get a commission and then build, don't build on speculation. As to the 50 that he bought, anyone found any documentation of that purchase?
I think it's just urban legend. And that's too bad, it would truly be cool if it were true.
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The Palos Verdes Concours D'Elegance 2011 had 6 Kaiser Darrins on display. The author for the online article and pictures is Art Evans. In his piece about Kaiser Darrins he speaks about the conversation he had with Howard " Dutch" Darrin. It seems "Dutch" had two Darrin cars entered in the Palm Springs Road Race, March 26-27 1955. The drivers were Laura Maxine Elmer( to be Mrs Briggs Cunningham), and Ralph Sinatra. So being the diligent one, I found the entry program for the March 26-27 1955 SCCA Palm Springs Road Race. Maxine Elmer with a Darrin-Cad 1955 and Ralph Sinatra with a Darrin listed as supercharged. Both are in the Modified class. Sinatra wrecked his and what ever happened to Maxine's car is a guess. In my previous post there is a link to Sinatra racing at Torrey Pines 1954-1955. I would agree that at least one Darrin was Cad powered and at least one other Darrin was supercharged, both by Howard Darrin. The question still remains, where are they today? Google Etceterini.com and go to the 50-60 SCCA racing section. Go to the 1955 Races and find Palm Springs. The list is about 1/2 way down under 8th race March 26-27 1955. It shows names and cars and class. Goggle Palos Verde Concours D'Elegance and read what author Art Evans has to say about his conversation with Howard Darrin and coments about the race.
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I have talked to a lot of people that know of one but none of them have ever seen one in person. I have seen the racing video but it does not show what engine is in it. Again if anyone has any documentation or a picture please post it.
Just because it is on the internet does not make it true not even close. I think if Dutch had really done this he would have been proud of the car and would have taken pictures and documented his creation. I have seen pictures of the most unusual one off cars but no picture of a Dutch Darrin with a cady? Very unlikely.
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After all I've read on the subject , I'm inclined to believe he built at least one, but due to racing casualties it (or they) no longer exist. I'm working on a K-F documentary film, maybe this would be a good thing to investigate?
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Some years ago , maybe late 70's or early 80's , Gerry Fendley and I were at a show in Montgomery , Al. with our Kaisers . A fellow stopped to talk with us that had a Darrin at home he was tinkering with that he said needed a supercharger and needed help finding one . Knowing Darrins didn't have superchargers , sparked our interest . We were invited to see it and sure enough there was a section formed in the engine compartment for it . The man was moving to Tennessee shortly so we never saw it again . I wish we had taken pictures .
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I've been a member of KFOCI since 1970, and in all that time, I have NOT seen or heard of any of the Darrins that Howard Darrin supposedly obtained and sold from his Santa Monica showroom. Pictures exist of his showroom, and I'm sure he sold some Darrins. The Darrin registry over the years has kept an excellent account of factory produced Darrins with an over 80% plus survival. If Howard Darrin bought and sold the 50 or so that is rumored, where is at least one? These vehicles had to have some type of vehicle identification numbers to be sold and registered. Have all of those Darrins been destroyed or lost over the years? Those Darrins , in my opinion would be as interesting to see as one of the Cad Darrins . I'm sure the Darrins that were listed by SCCA did exist because, the SCCA records are official documents. SCCA records also indicate that 3 other races from 1955 to 1957 had Darrins entered. It does not show what engines were in the cars or anything else. I'm pretty certain that those Darrins were destroyed through accident and they were not meant to be saved. Just my opinion though. Doesn't everyone like myths and fairytales?
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Some Darrins did have superchargers.
Later serial numbers had factory modifications to allow easier installation of the supercharges
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What if Dutch just sold those 50 Darrins he bought from the factory without modifying them? Just like a regular dealer. Then they would be included in the 435 total count, right?
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No
As I understand, the cars that Dutch got were those that were "in process", ie, not completed. Therefore, they would not have had the serial number plate.
Although 435 is the highest number plate, there were actually 436 finished on the production line. There are 2 ones numbered 275!!
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I too have been in this hobby since the late sixties when I was a small kid and I've never heard of a genuine sighting of a one of these Cadillac V8 equipped Darrins. If there were 50, you would think there would be remnants or evidence somewhere but I've seen none. No wait, a friend of mine's neighbor said his brother-in-law's dad knew a fellow that once worked for a guy who said he had a coworker who once knew a guy who saw one.
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Jake,
Thanks for the detailed confirmation of our suspicions.
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I know one thing, if I do decide to focus the documentary on this, the interviews are going to look a lot like Bigfoot interviews. "See those huge tracks.... that proves it!"
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Jake
Get a picture otherwise it is just another fish story to add to the million other stories with no facts. Until then it is still a myth.
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Jake
Yes, a follow up is in order. data plate, VIN. Build date and PHOTOS.
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I have seen this before no picture of the engine or tag.
Maybe someone has a picture the myth persists.
I can tell you this mine is a blast to drive with the cady in it, as soon as I change the rear end gear I will get it on the freeway and see how it really goes. A Darrin deserves a V8 Dutch was right about that.
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I set my cruise control at 75 mph and just go. 304 AMC/Jeep v8 fuel injection and electronic distributorless ignition,Chrysler automatic 3 speed and lockup torque convertor,3.08 rear axle ratio Dana 44 with posi. The front end gets light about 120 mph though.
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nice car I am using the stock 4.55 to 1 rear axle I am thinking of something in the 2.70's 8" ford.
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Jake, the photo you have of the Kaiser Darrin rolled over is from an SCCA race that was held in March of 1955 at Palm Springs. This link will show the entry list of drivers. There are 2 Kaiser Darrins entered, 162 Maxine Elmer and 163 Ralph Sinatra. There is also a writeup of the race and an old video. It shows Sinatra rolling over and some other good shots before he rolls over. Maxine left the race with no brakes. Also notice some of the names of drivers entered like Phil Hill, Bob Estes, Ken Miles to name a few.
http://www.ferrariexperts.com/SCCA%20results%201955.htm#PAL
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When researching it's always best to go back to "primary sources" (learned that when doing historical research papers). After perusing some ancient KFOCF quarterlies, I think I've found the original source of the rumor- from Spring 1960:
"The son of the late Howard Darrin is reported to be producing these familiar automobiles in limited production in California at a cost of $5000. The only basic difference is the Cadillac "mill" in place of the basic Willys engine. "
Then there is the letter I found from Ted Dahlman, who visited with Dutch in 1964, asked him about the Cadillac Darrin and revealed the results to the club (see third paragraph):
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Here is the rest of the letter and a page from Motor Life magazine describing the Cadillac Darrin:
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The previous info leads me to believe that
1) 4 or 5 Darrins with the Caddy mill were actually produced
2) A real Cadillac Darrin might have originally come with a hardtop, flocked inside
The real question- did any of them survive? And if the hardtop is long gone, and with the likelihood of modifications over the years, how would you identify one if you found it?
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the hard-tops are still available from an earlier post
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Wouldn't any surviving Cad Darrin's have a very high serial number? How many of the last known twenty or so Darrin's are unaccounted for? I agree that Dutch probably never made more than one without having a large deposit as they would have been expensive and time consuming to modify. I doubt that they automatically came with a hard top but that they were certainly available for an additional cost. I once had a Darin with an Olds V-8 installed but I have no idea who installed or when it was done. It was probably over fifty years ago. I sold that Darrin and two Glasspar roadsters to a collector in Denver who said that he had several Darrin's. That was around twenty five years ago. I sold the Darrin for $3,000 at that time. That was after I sold my 1968 Shelby GT 500 convertible for $1,800. At that time cars were not worth a lot of money and it was certainly long before Shelby's caught on and really started to bring a lot of money. I did keep a few cars from the old days!
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as I understand, the cars that Dutch got were not part of the 435 that we mostly talk about
I do not believe that he got cars with serial numbers on them
additionally, most of the last 20 of the 435 are accounted for in the Registry
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I doubt that KW would sell cars without serial numbers as there would be no way to register them to a new owner. They usually come with a certificate of origin and a bill of sale.. The story gets more and more interesting. Good luck in unravelling the facts!
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Wow this has become a lively post, maybe we will get to the bottom of this story. If there truly were 3 or 4 it is hard to believe one would not have survived.
One story said he got some left over bodies that were left outside in the elements I do not think they would have had ID tags. I wonder if he had a license as a auto manufacturer if he did he could make his own tags. I am sure he would have had to have some kind of liability insurance to sell cars. Maybe with a small production you had no liability.
Anyway I hope someone has some real proof.
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May have found the wholly Grail check out these pics I will post more when I get mor info. The roomer may be true stay tuned.
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So are there any known Darrins with a mid 50's Cadillac V-8 in the engine bay (that wasn't installed recently) ? Or, any with a hardtop that matches the description?
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The hard tops are available I have 1 haven't used it yet need a rear window and hold down hardware.
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Over a 20 year period, it's likely to increase. Classic cars have a long track record of price increases. However, and this is a big one- just like the stock market and real estate market, there will be booms, busts and periodic corrections. I believe we are on the verge of a major correction due to investors driving up prices. But that's just short term.
Being a unique and rare fiberglas car, I think the Darrin is more likely to increase in value than the average Kaiser. It's better than money in the bank, if you bought it right.
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Is Dutch Darrin's son still around? Wasn't he helping Dutch run the dealership toward the end? Did you guys read all of those articles that the gentleman from Florida made available to us earlier on this website? He is a specialist on fiberglass cars and has done much research on lots of them.
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Jake, Did he ask you how many miles you wanted on it?
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Jake if u don't want it have him call me.
Lee
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In the investment car market (read - a place to make money) for KF, there's the Darrin and then there's everything else. Darrins caught on as investment grade and prices skyrocketed and owners suddenly found themselves sitting on a comfortable nest egg. But, that's only for the best cars. The cost to restore one has increased significantly so a gap is forming. Well done cars will command a premium and the others will see prices flatten. So, a good driver should be in the $40k range before too long in my opinion.
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Restorations come in all forms, some good some not so good.
Good restorations will bring much more then not so good ones.
Many people want Darrins just to have one not for the quality of the car. I have taken my Darrins to over 300 car shows all over the country and have only seen one other Darrin except at the KF convention. These cars seem to be in colections or in garages but not at car shows. Because there are so few of them they will comand big $$ for nice cars.
If you see some of these decent Darrins for low prices I am always interested.
leeabrahams@cox.net
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This car has been up 3 or 4 times now never reaches its reserve.
I think it got to $92,000 once and didn't sell.
I think a well restored Darrin will still bring a good price. Cars always look better in pictures.
I tell people go see the car you want to buy.
Lee
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Whatever someone will pay for it at that time!!
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EXCELLENT
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Darrin did put a Cadillac engine in at least one Darrin. Old ads of his appeared in Motor Trend and similar magazines and a year later he was still trying to sell it. Buying fifty leftover Darrin's from K-W has never been substantiated and is just a misguided rumor like the Muntz pick-ups. We have discussed this earlier in this forum.
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Gordie
Did you ever see a picture of the the engine installed?
If you have one please send it to me.
I can tell you from my experience they run so good with a Cadillac engine and a 2.69 gear in the rear.
I drive mine as often as I can.
Lee
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Darrin was usually low key about his projects and I have heard stories about how he would not let anyone hang out in his Hollywood Blvd dealership and work area where the Darrin and other projects were worked on. I seem to recall his asking $5,000 for his Cadillac powered Darrin at a time when stock Darrin's were selling for around $3,000. Selling his for $5,000 must have been a hard sell and he was probably losing money on it because of the cost of the engine and transmission and all of the conversion work he must have done to get the job completed. Perhaps that early Palm Springs race car was his. Because of the high rate of Darrin survival it is possible that the car is among us somewhere unless it was wrecked or met a different fate. I've never seen photos of its construction or of the construction of any of his other projects. That photo of Darrin's dealership with the Darrin in the showroom could have been the V-8 conversion as he tried to sell it for over a year and it is unlikely that he was going to convert any more of them.
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thanks Gordie
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the family has confirmed to me that Dutch did only one Caddy conversion and the "50" that he bought is a myth
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Thanks Terry, That kind of information puts the questions to rest regarding him buying fifty left over Darrin's. I am sure that any Kaiser vehicles unsold in 1955 were discounted to dealers before K-W stopped production of passenger cars. There were not enough Darrin's made to even have one for each dealer.
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In the investment car market (read - a place to make money) for KF, there's the Darrin and then there's everything else. Darrin's caught on as investment grade and prices skyrocketed and owners suddenly found themselves sitting on a comfortable nest egg. But, that's only for the best cars. The cost to restore one has increased significantly so a gap is forming. Well done cars will command a premium and the others will see prices flatten. So, a good driver should be in the $40k range before too long in my opinion.
Another thing that can happen with all cars in the fifties is that in a few years there will be no one left who relates to them. In my lifetime of enjoying old cars I can remember when Model T Fords would bring a lot of money but now no one wants them and they are awful to drive. The same thing happened to Model A's and they are only popular now because they make great hot rods. If you go to one of the big hot rod shows expect to see over 5,000 cars and there is every old car that you can think of modified and someone's pride and joy. If you remember our KFOCI meets they started putting V-8's in Kaisers in the 1960's and last year in Arizona we had many modified Kaisers, Henry J's and Willys. We are going to see more and more modified cars as parts dry up for the early cars.. '55-'57 Chevrolet's were every where and then came the Mustangs in the 1960's. Young people are not interested in old cars like we were and we are seeing cars from the seventies being restored now as those are the cars that younger people grew up with and that they relate to. People are buying prize winning older cars and are tearing them apart and putting modern drive trains and air conditioning in them now and they make great drivers that your wife and kids will be happy to travel in. I think that stock old cars are going to have a limited life span especially if they keep modifying the fuel. Who knows, maybe we will be looking for used Tesla Engines in another ten years?
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Thanks Terry, That kind of information puts the questions to rest regarding him buying fifty left over Darrin's. I am sure that any Kaiser vehicles unsold in 1955 were discounted to dealers before K-W stopped production of passenger cars. There were not enough Darrin's made to even have one for each dealer.quote]
when the family disclosed that to me, I asked if I could repeat it or keep the urban legend going--the answer is obvious to the casual observer!
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:o
It did not sell..