compression question

[Lisa P]

I installed a new coil, condenser, rotor and set the gap on the points and am now getting spark.  I had tested compression earlier this week and none of the cylinders read greater than 60 psi.  Could the car start even if the compression is this low or lower? 

[boatingbill]

I would say yes, because there is no load on the motor. Did each cylinder have a reading of compression? This would indicate no valves stuck open. If you operate the throttle rod at the carburetor, do you see gas squirt when looking down into the carb? Does the car sputter of backfire at all?

[Lisa P]

Each cylinder had a reading but #3 or 4 was as low as 10 psi.  The fuel pump has not been installed yet but I did put a little gas down the carb and propped the throttle open a bit.  I also tried a small amount of starting fluid but no sputtering.  I recently had the head off, it was milled flat and we replaced the valve guides that were out of spec.  Some new valves were put in and all valves were ground by a friend of mine.  I did lap the valves before installing them but am not sure if they were ground at 30 and 45 degrees or all at one or the other.  I'm thinking I need to re-check the valve lash, maybe some are not closing all the way?  I've never taken an engine apart this far so I am still learning.  Oh, and no, we didn't replace or grind any of the valve seats yet as my mechanic friend said he would rather do that with the engine out of the car.

[Jim B PEI]

here is a hand site: http://www.carnut.com/specs/gen/kais50.html
This is just from what I've heard, but supposedly rings etc can bind up and won't do their job with compression after an engine has been sitting for a while. Pouring just a bit of oil--Marvel Mystery oil gets mentioned sometimes, sometimes a bit of transmission oil to loosen it up, but regular oil would work--down the plug hole could raise the compression a bit. If you can then get it running with a bit of starting fluid etc so that the engine warms up, these problems sometimes sort themselves out with the heat and pressure enough that it gets progressively easier to start. If you do get it running, try to keep it going for say half an hour or so, oil smoke and all, keeping an eye on temp and oil pressure of course. If the engine will kick on a cylinder or two, you are on the right track. Besides needing the right wires (copper core) for 6 volt spark, are the plugs okay? Doesn't matter if they are new or look perfect.  Do a test of spark plugs out of the cylinder hole to see if they spark properly. Another thing to consider if the engine has been sitting a while is the condenser--these can go bad. I take it that you have done the various tests on the coil, points and cleaned up the plugs. About the plugs, some, especially more modern replacements, and I understand Champion is infamous for this, fail if ever wet with gasoline even once. Had that happen with both a Suzuki truck and a Mazda. Just never work properly again. Replaced brand new plugs with different brand new plugs and they started immediately.
Quite often just turning over too slowly will keep a 6 volt from firing up. Temporary or replacement ground straps or even parallel heavy duty jumper cables, the sort tow truck drivers use, might do the trick. If it is kicking, perhaps starting it on a 12 volt just to get it running for the first or second time might do the trick. Short bursts of a few seconds only, and let the starter cool down between tries! Don't do it too often either!! Just when you are at the stage that it is trying to fire up, and connect back up to the 6 volt battery after it starts.

If you do get it started, then you might have the usual problems with carb float needing to be adjusted for modern gas, needle and seat cleaning, plugged jets, bad gas pump and the like etc.

Hope some of this helps.

When I first got my 49 Kaiser, the engine was so worn it would barely start. Didn't burn much oil visually, it just lost it unburnt through the engine, and compression was quite low. After a rebuild, with good compression, it starts easily.

[Fid]

I will just add to what Jim says about the spark plugs - last year I got one of cars flooded when trying to start it in the spring and NOTHING would make those plugs work again. I let them dry in the sun as I did other work, even heated them with a propane torch to ensure any residule gasoline was removed and the car still would not start. I put a new set of plugs in it and it started up the first time. I had it happen few years previous too - changing the spark plugs was the only fix.

[Lisa P]

Jim and Fid, thanks again for the advice and the web link.  I did install a brand new condenser and brand new plugs, J8 from the lawn and garden section.  They are gapped according to spec. but it sounds like I should have another set handy in case these get wet.  I pulled one and grounded it against the block while cranking the engine, the spark was present and was an orangish-yellow color.  I am going to try putting some Sea Foam into the cylinders to see if that helps (since I have that on hand).  Also need to check spark plug wiring, I know firing order but am not sure if I started in the right spot on the distributor cap.  I'll probably keel over if it actually ever runs!

[Fid]

It is wise to check the distributor and wires because... I believe the rotor turns counter-clockwise on that distributor.  It's very easy in our "right rotating society" to assume everything rotates clockwise and connect the plug wires accordingly.  I've made that mistake myself, assuming clockwise rotation of the rotor, and one time it even started but it sure sounded ugly!  This was on a Henry J with a 161 CID but I believe the Kaiser 226 is the same way so pull the cap and turn it over and see which way the rotor turns. It would be great to find that was the issue.  Keep us informed.

[boatingbill]

LisaP: Check your spark at the Plug again in early evening near dark. The spark should be bluish, not orange/yellow. This indicates a low voltage condition, with your already coil replaced, you may just have a poor ground return. A weak spark will cause hard starting even on a rebuilt engine.

[Logan]

I recently had a bad coil, and the plugs would spark outside of the engine (blue, too), but it turned out they weren't sparking INSIDE the engine--why?--because in a compressed air environemnt it is more difficult for the spark to make the jump, and my coil was too weak.  But you said you have a good coil.  Still, it's worth noting that just because plugs are sparking outside the cylinder, doesn't necessarily mean they will spark inside it.

Other notes: yes, if an engine sits for a period of time, the rings can become stuck to the pistons and cause bad compression, as was the case on mine.  After a few gallons of 50/50 Marvel/gas followed by a few (quite a few) tanks full of gas mixed with Marvel at the regular ratio, i.e. regular driving, the rings came loose and my compression is now good.  By the way, I still add Marvel to every tank of gas, helps lubricate valve seats too.

[Logan]

By the way, DO NOT put 50/50 gas Marvel Mystery Oil in your tank and expect it to run.  I would run the engine, and slowly pour the mixture down the carburetor.  Also, I heard of a guy that used a lot of Marvel in his airplane, and he used so much of it that it gummed up his tanks.

[Jim B PEI]

I just have to put my voice in again about making sure you have the right spot and the right order! Studebakers tuned up by people used to working on Chevs are notorious for this. If you can ask at a Massey Ferguson tractor place/farm supply store/antique tractor club or the like, they might be able to put you on to someone with a working Continental engine in a tractor, forklift, mobile pump or generator unit--it sometimes helps to ask or to look at working engine. If the spark is wrong, then it sound like you need some temporary grounding straps the improve the spark. They are good workhorse engines and fairly simple and dependable, which is why they were used for so long in so many applications.

Big things of course with a Continental is to not let it overheat, and keep the revs low. "Supposedly" they are okay running all day at about 3,600, but me, I aim for about 3,000 maximum.

Good luck with this!

[Lisa P]

Thanks for all the input guys! 

*Fid, I remembered that the distributor turns counterclockwise, I had read that was a common mistake. 
*Boating Bill, I just got a length of copper core plug wire in the mail, maybe that would help the spark?  The battery cables have been replaced but the ground strap from the block to the frame is original and pretty beat up, maybe I should replace that too? 
*Logan, interesting story about the plug not firing inside the engine!  My compression is still pretty low so that shouldn't be a problem, and I have the new coil.  I will pick up some Marvel Mystery Oil, this car has not run in 35 yrs.
*Jim, I read on this forum that the "#1 wire goes in the hole just to the left of the clip (on the distributor cap) that faces the front of the car" and thought that until I get out to where I can verify this, I'll start there.  I had read that these engines are prone to overheating and will definitely baby it.  And yep, I'll replace that braided ground from the frame to the block, the batt. cables are new but only 2 ga. until I get some 0 ga. made up.

I'm going to wire up the plugs tonight with the copper cored wire if I can verify the order on the distributor cap and check the spark out again.  Thanks again, this is gonna be fun!

[boatingbill]

LisaP: When you remove the ground strap from block to frame, check for corrosion where they bolt on. When you said the head was off, did you clean the block and head surface where they meet and install a new head gasket? I wonder when you said a "friend" adjusted the valves, was this done correctly? Since you are new at this, try not to do too many things at once. Also, if you spray Marine Fogging Oil (it looks like shaving creme) into each cylinder(leave plugs removed) it will coat the entire cylinder and raise compression and prevent a "dry" start. Now put a pencil into #1 cylinder and have someone turn over engine by hand while you're holding the pencil. The piston should go down and then up. When the piston is all the way up, the rotor should be pointing at #1 spark plug wire. On a 4 cycle engine (intake, compression,combustion,exhaust) the piston should be at the top on compression and exhaust. If the rotor is not pointed at the #1 plug, you may be at the exhaust cycle. Put the pencil back in and turn some more until the piston goes down and back up and now the rotor should be pointing at #1 cylinder. If it is not your timing is off on your distributor. You may have removed the distributor and put it back incorrectly. That can be fixed too. Good luck!

[Jim B PEI]

About the grounding straps, and grounds in general. This is fiddly but doesn't take too long, and makes a big difference. Clean all connections one by one battery, starter, ground straps and coil etc with a file/wire brush/sandpaper/emery stick as appropriate to the job at hand, to get shiny metal, and put a dab of dielectric electricians' paste at each connection before reattaching. You should get that engine turning over faster, with a hotter spark. I've seen 6 volt Kaisers and Frazers that turn over BOOM! Cleaning and good grounds is everything. These cars started well when new when it was well below freezing.

Actually, once you get it running--its only a matter of time--this would be a good thing to do generally. Gives you a good chance to suss out the wiring too at the same time. If you replace any bits, remember to use 6 volt wiring!

True story--co-worker spent a winter doing over an MGB about 20 years ago, bit by bit the odd evening, every single electrical connection (pigtails= born to corrode and fail) in the car, then oiling and sealing the car's known design flaws for damp with clear silicone. That car, which he got cheap because it was so unreliable at every electrical connection, started first touch of the key even down to -20 or in pouring rain, and was a main car daily driver for 8 years with no electrical glitches ever, even though it was a Lucas "Prince of Darkness" equipped car. Dielectric paste and sandpaper is your friend <GG>

Again, good luck and keep us posted!

[Lisa P]

*grumble*  Put new copper cored plug wires in, now have nice bright bluish spark.  Sorted out timing, I had put the oil pump back so it was not indexed right with the distributor drive shaft.  Fuel is flowing liberally through the carb, perhaps too much so.  It has huffed and puffed a couple times like it was going to start but sometimes this causes the starter to make a horrible grinding noise, other times the starter makes that low keyed "ziiinnnggg" like it isn't engaged anymore.  Any ideas?