More on judging cars at the National

[Fid]

Here's an interesting question regarding judging and maybe some of you can shed some light on it.  As those who used to chat on the old chat page many years ago may recall, I purchased my 1952 Henry J Vagabond on ebay in 2001 and shortly thereafter the engine threw a rod through the block and bounced it through the pan as well.  The car was originally a four cylinder without overdrive. When I brought it back to life, I installed a 6 cylinder engine with overdrive transmission and used all and only KF parts to do the conversion. The guy who owned the car before had already replaced the original painted hood moulding with the chrome style used on the  6 cylinder models (probably the most common modification I see on '51 Js) and added a horn ring (which four cylinder models did not have).  After I put the six in it, I also installed bumper gaurds, a second horn and bright work around the windshields (all features the fours cylinder models didn't have). This means this car is a K523 but has a six cylinder engine and all the deluxe trim.
If I had this car judged at a National, would there be a deduction for the tag not matching or would it receive deductions for each of the individual items I mentioned?  Things like a second horn and bumper gaurds were available as dealer installed options but the bright work and hood moulding isn't listed that way or part of any AG. Also the six cylinder engine was not a dealer installed item!  I'm sure this has come up before so I'm curious as to what people have to say about it.

[Gordie]

I'm not a judge but I'll bet it would be a similar deduction as having a Chev engine in it.  I have the latest judging forms somewhere but I can't find them when I need them.  I am sure there is a standard deduction for having the wrong engine and I doubt that you would be nicked for all of the accessories too.  What do you judges say?

[Weaz]

I'm sure no double meaning was implied with that thread title, right Fid? 

[Fid]

Whoa... I had to think for a minute on that... No, I didn't mean that and you're right, I should've called the topic "Additional Discussion on judging cars at the National."  Cars that have had V8s in them and drive train changes fall into the modified class so they would be judged based on those standards.
My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that a non-tag matching car (save for AG as many dealers added accessories which were not in the AG) should not be allowed to receive gold but beyond that I don't know what to think.  I'm interested in what others have to say.  My blue '53 Henry J, which I drove to Auburn in 2004 is an original, tag-matching, car but my '52 Vag is not.  It is one fine example just the same and to me non-tag matching does not mean "Bad" or "sub-standard" but I also feel it's not fair to judge a car as a Dragon when it was Deluxe with all the Dragon scripts/trim added.

[Gordie]

Pontiac Tempests get turned into GTO's on a regular basis as well as Mustangs turn into Shelby's.  The serial numbers always give them away and we see those kind of cars at auctions more than at car meets.  The Model A Ford owners have every reproduction part available to make a perfect car, even better than the originals.  Over restored!  I have heard that the Model A competition once got down to radiator water as everything else was perfect.  The clean water won out as coolant and antifreeze was not around when the cars were new in 1928.  Our K-F Willys cars are much more complicated than the early cars and we don't have to worry about them all being perfect but for authenticity we have to draw the line somewhere and if two cars look identical but one has wrong components the correct car has to get more credit for being authentic.  Many clubs now have a class for driving cars that are not in competition but are fun drivers.  Maybe we should look at that class for us so that we can all just enjoy the cars and not worry about perfection.

[HJ-ETEX]

Lowell - At the National in Mobile we judged Paul Harrelson's not modified HJ. As we moved to the next car, a former KFOCI President mentioned that the data plate was for a 4 cylinder HJ. Well, do you ignore the comment or do you acknowledge that you missed something important? The member that was judging with me agreed that there wasn't anything other than the data plate that would suggest that the car wasn't originally a 6 cylinder. So we marked the data plate as "non KF" and had to explain that seemingly strange comment to the Chief Judge.

[HJ-ETEX]

gordie - The great crippler on big bucks restorations is matching numbers. It isn't the ID and trim plates I am thinking of but number tags on starters, generators, and distributors. If a club relied on data from such sources as Motors manuals, they could have such numbers. But I don't see any point on KF cars, even the Darrins.

[Fid]

That makes sense to me (deducting for the tag). That is always an issue with the Js though as they  lacked so many basic features that most people upgraded them out of necessity. There's a 1951 on ebay right now which has a glove compartment which was not available at all on the 1951 or '52 Vagabonds.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/51-Henry-J_W0QQitemZ130382099608QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item1e5b60f498#v4-35
Looked closely at the photo and you can see the hole in the dash above the ignition switch where the wiper control is on a 1953. Then notice, sure enough, there is no hole in the top center of the dash where the control was on the '51s and '52s so either someone welded a '53 dash into it or put '51 fenders on a '53.  Not an uncommon thing to see either. The parking brake handle was also moved to the other side of the steering column on that car.

[HJ-ETEX]

I recall an article in a car collector magazine from some 25 years ago. An AACA member who judged Model Ts paid some sizable money to buy a 1926 Model T that had stored since shortly after it was bought. His purpose was to have the best example he could find of a T as it was delivered to the buyer. He pointed out that the car had items from the previous year of production and if I recall, the door handles didn't all match. Henry Ford didn't cut prices to the bone by wasting inventory so it should be expected that small parts especially were used until the supply was exhausted.
Rick Kamen has pointed out that 55 Willys used a lot of left over 54-55 Kaiser items such as arm rests.

[Fid]

Yes, and KF was no stranger to that when it came to radios and heaters!

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

A number of interesting comments that prompt a number of interesting comments back:

1.  The basis for judging is how the car would have been built at the factory and (when applicable) equipped with Kaiser-Frazer branded accessories if delivered to its original owner at the factory.  As a result, while the car may look exactly like the 6 cylinder version, there are gross errors when it comes to judging IF you judge it based on the build tags (body tag, door post serial number tag, etc).

2.  There are numerous cases where dealers and/or distributors put non k-F items (especially things like heaters in the beginning months of the 1947 model year) in cars to make a sale on the spot.  Unfortunately, it is still wrong, or should be wrong when it comes to judging.

3.  One of the reasons the Factory Special/Modified class was created was to let people who wanted to be creative with their cars get some recognition for good work.  In this category, cars that are "dressed up" such as the HJ and 53 Deluxe mentioned here (assuming the Deluxe does not have K530 door post or large body tags, as some Deluxe bodies were pulled from the bank and re-trimmed for final assembly as Dragons).  In the modified class, anything goes...the criteria should be based on what was changed, how the change(s) were implemented, the quality of workmanship and overall appearance (chrome, paint, etc) rather than did it get built that way.  So, we already have such a class for "drivers" that may have different upholstery, drivetrains, etc.

4.  Personally, I feel that if the make/type of an item is correct, the serial number (which might indicate the item was made before or after the car model year dates) should not be a big deal.  After all, it is very likely that in the case of earlier numbers, the part sat around and finally got used. 

5.  Unfortunately, there are a growing number of eBay listings for vehicles where the vehicle is mis-represented.  Typically, the listing seller states that "I listed it for a friend" or "the actual owner told me it was" in an effort to get off the legal hook, but that does  not work in the courts.  This is why eBay began their satisfaction program...to protect buyers from sellers who mis-represent out of innocence, or deliberately execute a fraud in order to make a quick sale to an unsuspecting party.  I enjoy reading the lawsuit reports that arise after auctions and private sales when the buyers find out they did not get what they were told they were getting.

[Fid]

Yes the internet has changed so many things.  Owners, creators and sellers of bogus cars can no longer get away with it. Case in point that "1951 Dragon" which had a fake "Dragon" script on it, 10 years ago could've easily been passed off to a new owner as a rare car and the seller could be long gone and difficult to find but now days word spreads fast.  Another example is the 1953 "Manhattan" which was a dressed up "Deluxe" listed on ebay a couple of months ago. The seller claimed ignorance, and that could have been true, but he couldn't hide behind that any more when word got out.
With KF cars it's not such a big deal but as gordie pointed out, we now see Camaros that have been forged as "SS" and "RS" models, Mustangs as "Shelbys" etc. and the folks that used to make a bundle doing that are now faced with major hurdles if they list those cars for sale on the internet.  Even back in my highschool days in the 70s I had a friend who had standard '69 Camaro.  He put all the Rally Sport trim on it and even went as far as hanging a piece of exhaust pipe to the frame on one side to give the appearance that the car had dual exhaust.  And to add to it, and I found this part laughable, whenever he drove it, he would push the clutch in one additional time after he got into third gear so any observant bystander might believe the car had a 4 speed!  But... he did these things to a car he owned that he wanted to  make an impression with. When he sold it, full disclosure was given but I know people who did things like that and ripped people off big time. This is not so easy to do if you advertise on the net.

[ben-tex]

The modified class is the proper place for 6 cylinder HJs that should be 4s. There are a good number of such cars of otherwise high quality that would properly be gold award winners in modified.

On the other hand I can remember a few "award chasers" who tried to enter cars in modified class with very minor alterations because the judging standards are sometimes more lenient in the modified class.

[Fid]

Yes, I thought the Modified class was supposed to be for cars with "Major alterations to engine and drive train."  If that is not clearly defined, then anyone who can't locate or afford correct parts such as hubcaps or emblems, could enter their car in the modified class and receive gold.

[kaiserfrazerlibrary]

That's correct, but we're fast getting to the point where you can't find the stuff.