Author Topic: A color conundrum...  (Read 1374 times)

konrad

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A color conundrum...
« on: February 11, 2020, 12:54:47 PM »
So in phone conversations with both Larry Barker and Jim Betts, upon seeing the video and pics of the '51 Deluxe I bought, both quickly identified its color as "Pine Tint Green".

But in my searches for more info on this car and Kaiser/Frazer in general (in particular literature, etc. that I can collect) I've come across numerous chip samples available on Ebay for the '51 year.  I know from my research that Ditzler was the major paint supplier for their paint, and also that when Ditzler couldn't fulfill the required needs, Kaiser turned to other paint companies to fill the void.

So far I've come across 4 different paint chip samples for '51 Kaisers from various makers, including Ditzler, Acme, Rinshed-Mason, and Dupont (I bought the '51 Dupont sample page...it was 10 bucks and I couldn't resist the impulse) and all of them show the color of my car as "Ceramic Green".

So where does the "Pine Tint Green" color name come from?  Was that the color name as offered by Kaiser when ordering a new car from them in '51?

Apologies for all the questions I'm asking, but until I'm as up to speed as the rest of you mugs...I'm gonna bug the crap outta ya!!!  :D
51 Kaiser Deluxe

darrin145

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2020, 01:30:29 PM »
I believe the Darrin was available in Pine Tint. According to my info the Kaiser color code was 228 / 668 in 1953, and 117 in !955, and 117 on Willys in 1955.

Gary.

konrad

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2020, 01:57:14 PM »
I believe the Darrin was available in Pine Tint. According to my info the Kaiser color code was 228 / 668 in 1953, and 117 in !955, and 117 on Willys in 1955.

Gary.

That's interesting, as the Ditzler chip page from '53 I saw identified that same color as "Jade Tint".
51 Kaiser Deluxe


joefrazer

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2020, 03:08:12 PM »
I checked my DuPont color chips and Ceramic Green and Jade Tint have different mixing formulas. They are not the same color, although to the eye they may appear to be the same.

konrad

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2020, 10:39:02 AM »
I checked my DuPont color chips and Ceramic Green and Jade Tint have different mixing formulas. They are not the same color, although to the eye they may appear to be the same.

Interesting...

Got my '51 Dupont Kaiser chip page and ceramic green, along with several other colors, have no mixing formulas, but I can only infer that since it was an earlier chip set page, Dupont had not yet been called upon to supply that paint to Kaiser...Ditzler being able to keep up with demand at that point.  I should point out though, as someone who spent 13 years as a painter, one can achieve the same color with different mixing formulas.

However, I still don't know where the 'Pine Tint Green' name came from.  Given both Larry Barker and Jim Betts both quickly identified this car as being that color, I can only infer that was the color name as offered by the dealerships, though the actual paint color from the factory was 'Ceramic Green'.
51 Kaiser Deluxe

kaiserfrazerlibrary

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2020, 11:50:17 AM »
Before you go off getting paint, let's establish what the color actually is, assuming that the car was not re-painted by a prior owner.

On your firewall, there are two metal plates  (a little below the windshield area).   The larger one is the Body Information Tag.  It has lots of headers and some numbers.  What is the number underneath the header PAINT?  This will tall you what the car was originally painted.  You can look up a "translation" in  KFOCI HANDBOOK on the CD that is part of your new member information packet; if you don't have it already, you should get it soon.   

Also, be aware that none of the mixing formulas are any good on the old charts and the chip samples can weather and change shade to one degree or another over time.  PPG Automotive Finishes and ICL Automotive Paints (the new names for the old Ditzler and Rinshed-Mason outfits) should still do a color matching service for their jobbers.  The Jobber needs the original paint code number off the Body information Tag as well as the paint name.  They send the info to the Color Library department of the company and they run the chip through an computer spectrograph that rolls out a mixing formula using currently available colors.  This information is considered confidential and is provided free to the jobber as part of sales support so it will NOT be given to you to take somewhere else, so don't be offended if the jobber won't give it to you...he or she is not supposed to. 



 

konrad

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2020, 12:32:49 PM »
Before you go off getting paint, let's establish what the color actually is, assuming that the car was not re-painted by a prior owner.

On your firewall, there are two metal plates  (a little below the windshield area).   The larger one is the Body Information Tag.  It has lots of headers and some numbers.  What is the number underneath the header PAINT?  This will tall you what the car was originally painted.  You can look up a "translation" in  KFOCI HANDBOOK on the CD that is part of your new member information packet; if you don't have it already, you should get it soon.   

Also, be aware that none of the mixing formulas are any good on the old charts and the chip samples can weather and change shade to one degree or another over time.  PPG Automotive Finishes and ICL Automotive Paints (the new names for the old Ditzler and Rinshed-Mason outfits) should still do a color matching service for their jobbers.  The Jobber needs the original paint code number off the Body information Tag as well as the paint name.  They send the info to the Color Library department of the company and they run the chip through an computer spectrograph that rolls out a mixing formula using currently available colors.  This information is considered confidential and is provided free to the jobber as part of sales support so it will NOT be given to you to take somewhere else, so don't be offended if the jobber won't give it to you...he or she is not supposed to.

Err...I think you misunderstand...

I know the paint color on this car is not original...the original color (or rather the faded version of it) still exists under the trunk mat. and was likely Horizon Blue...I haven't had the chance yet to get the firewall codes.

This car was restored by a previous Club member, Dwayne Sell (club member from MI) , as part of his collection sometime in the early 2000's...it's apparently in a quarterly from an Auburn, IN meet about '04 or so...Larry is sending me a copy of that quarterly...so it was repainted in ceramic green in that restoration...

Per info from my conversations with Larry, Dwayne had at least one Frazer and two Kaisers, my Deluxe being one of those Kaisers.

My question was more about where the 'Pine Tint Green" designation of the color came from, since both Larry and Jim quickly identified it (as it's currently painted) as that color, from pics and video I'd posted, given all the paint chips from the various paint companies all show it as 'Ceramic Green'.

This is more of a historical question, really...where did the 'Pine Tint Green' interpolation of 'Ceramic Green' come from?
51 Kaiser Deluxe

darrin145

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2020, 01:28:44 PM »
Several shades of green were available in the Kaiser lineup... pine tint is the name given to the shade of green on the Kaiser Darrin...it may or may not be the same as one of the other shades of green with a different name...but rest assured pine tint was used on Darrins for 1954...as I mentioned in an earlier post it was also used on later Kaiser and Willys vehicles...

Gary

Fid

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2020, 02:34:47 PM »
Quote
...it's apparently in a quarterly from an Auburn, IN meet about '04 or so...

Here's a picture of my '53 J at Auburn, IN in July 2004. Looks like your car is right in front of it. I likely have video of it somewhere too.  There was also and episode of "Carography" on Fine Living TV which included video from Auburn. I'll have to see if I can dig that up too.  My car is in it as are many others.

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konrad

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2020, 03:41:29 PM »
Several shades of green were available in the Kaiser lineup... pine tint is the name given to the shade of green on the Kaiser Darrin...it may or may not be the same as one of the other shades of green with a different name...but rest assured pine tint was used on Darrins for 1954...as I mentioned in an earlier post it was also used on later Kaiser and Willys vehicles...

Gary

Gary...somehow I missed your original post...my apologies.
51 Kaiser Deluxe

konrad

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Re: A color conundrum...
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2020, 03:46:51 PM »
Quote
...it's apparently in a quarterly from an Auburn, IN meet about '04 or so...

Here's a picture of my '53 J at Auburn, IN in July 2004. Looks like your car is right in front of it. I likely have video of it somewhere too.  There was also and episode of "Carography" on Fine Living TV which included video from Auburn. I'll have to see if I can dig that up too.  My car is in it as are many others.

That has to be it!

Thank you Fid!  I'm snagging that pic for my archives.  So cool to see the car I now have among so many of its sisters and brethren.  :)
51 Kaiser Deluxe