Author Topic: short  (Read 8396 times)

Logan

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short
« on: May 15, 2011, 03:28:17 PM »
I recently had my generator rebuilt and a new voltage regulator installed, and they are working fine.  However, lately (and this happened occasionally before, but I think I was attributing it to the regulator/generator) sometimes I will lose all power, usually when travelling at low engine rpm.  For example, I was pulling into the parking lot the other night and suddenly all lights went off and the engine died.  I coasted to a parking stall and tried to start the car but nothing happened.  The second or 3rd time I turned the key it started normally and no more problems.  This has also happened when I slow down or come to a stop at intersections, but as in the parking lot case, after a few tries, it always seems to "get electricity" again and start up.  Maybe it's a short of some kind?

jerussel

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Re: short
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2011, 03:59:19 PM »
check your battery cables - all 4 ends.  Especially the chassis/engine end ofthe ground.

Kenn Evans II

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Re: short
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2011, 04:32:55 PM »
How much play do you have in the ignition switch and do you have a lot of weight on your key ring. This could be a contributing factor in losing your ignition circuit when turning and stopping.
Family of 1952 Kaiser Manhattan 1952 Kaiser Deluxe 1949 Kaiser Traveler 1961 Falcon Ranchero 1963 Galaxie 500 XL Conv. 1964 Cadillac Sovereign Landaulet combination ambulance hearse , 1970 Ford Truck F100 1972 Chevelle SS Conv.  1979 Chevrolet C100 KF Member # 10252

Logan

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Re: short
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2011, 08:39:02 PM »
I'll check the battery cables, although all are fairly new.  The key chain is very light--only the trunk and ignition key on a ring.

dpledger

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Re: short
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2011, 10:52:21 PM »
Battery cables are a good place to start, but more likely is the ignition switch. With age they can  acquire dead spots where if they are in a certain position contact is lost. Put a VOM from ground to the input terminal to the coil  set for a 10 volt scale or so. Turn the key on, observe the voltage, then wiggle the key. If there is a contact problem you should see fluctuations with movement.

Jim B PEI

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Re: short
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2011, 09:04:31 AM »
The above is an excellent suggestion. Your ignition switch might be a problem, but it might not be your *only* problem.

Losing ALL your power, not just ignition via the ignition switch or power to the coil, sounds like you have a break inside a major covered wire. What I mean is, you might have a break or rot on the primary cable from the battery to a primary junction point either on the negative or positive side, or a problem with a junction block. When cold, it makes contact, but when hot it expands and with a bump or a braking/acceleration 'lean' it comes apart enough to open the circuit. A few minutes off and cooling, or just not moving and it comes together enough to work. This can happen over time in certain cases. If it was an ignition switch problem or ignition coil solely, you wouldn't be losing your lights as well.  I have a Peugeot turbodiesel, and those cars are infamous for just about every electrical gremlin going due to  several different causes. 1) poor and weak ignition switch--repair is using a separate HD relay to power the starter, and KF people do know that their starter buttons wear out. But that is slow or no starting rather than your problem 2) bad connections from wires to printed circuit boards that control rear lights and gauges and clock--not applicable to KF. This is the sort of problem people with fibreglass cars/dashboards have getting no power/weird stuff happening with poor grounds, especially in the Studebaker Avantis and Hawks (dash is fibreglass).

However, most important AND applicable to KF cars 3)  wires, especially in the starter, charging, and primary power cables that "appear" to be just about perfect but are broken and rusted/rotten underneath the intact covering. If there is impedance, then the wire might be acting like a thermostat under load. I have had a problem with the high-beams (ie, when all four headlights are on) in my 63 Studebaker Wagonaire due to bad wiring overloading the headlight circuit and intermittently blowing the circuit breaker due to hidden corrosion that was NOT fixed by cleaning up the grounds and contacts with sanding and dielectric paste, NOR by replacing the floor switch which is also a common weak point.

I would think that a partially defective cable would like be showing higher impedance than expected, because if it is breaking, there might be rust/green rot/spark gap damage underneath. I would start by cleaning and redoing the contacts at all major points, and also by temporarily replacing the negative cable on a positive ground car. Work from there.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 09:11:47 AM by Jim B PEI »
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Logan

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Re: short
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2011, 04:47:05 PM »
Thanks for all the suggestions.  I will see what happens with the ignition switch.  These are all the original wires, and some are frayed, so I suspect that unfortunately it's probably a hidden gremlin.  I'm planning to restore the care in the future with an all new wiring harness, but I'm still years away from that, so meantime.....I guess I start checking wires and connections.

Logan

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Re: short
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 11:31:08 PM »
It died again on me today, and wouldn't restart, so I had to park it, take the bus, and come back with some tools.  After running some tests on the ignition switch and checking out some other more obscure wiring, I took the negative end off the battery terminal and scraped it with a wire brush, then put it back on tight and it started right up.  It didn't have any corrosion on it, so I was surprised that that was what it was.  I really thought it would be something different.

boatingbill

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Re: short
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 11:56:33 PM »
If the problem comes back, you may have a bad battery that is going "open" intermittently. I have seen this before where you are driving down the road and everything quits: no lights, radio and engine stalls. My dad had this on his 70 Plymouth. He took it to a garage and they put on a ignition switch, alternator, voltage regulator and battery cables. When the problem reoccurred, they gave up and said it was a "short" somewhere. He called me (I lived 500 miles away) wanting to sell the car. I asked him the next time it happened to see if he had lights (interior, head or brake) of any kind. It turned out to be completely dead. I told him to take a chance and replace the battery. Problem solved.

Logan

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Re: short
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2011, 12:21:16 PM »
Okay, good suggestion.  If it happens again, I might go ahead and replace the battery and see what happens.

Logan

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Re: short
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 11:59:32 PM »
Well, it did it again today.  It started right back up this time, but maybe it is the battery.  If it is going open intermittently, would that show up on a battery test?  Would a battery test fail it, or do I just need to get a new battery no matter what?

Jim B PEI

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Re: short
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2011, 11:53:51 AM »
I can't quite remember how it should be, and I think there is a difference from a battery/GENERATOR and a battery/alternator circuit so someone put me right. In one of the two, if the battery goes open circuit a running engine will stay running as long as there isn't more electrical load than being produced. I'm thinking its the alternator scenario as the alternator takes over the electrical supply once the engine is running, whereas in a battery and generator, the generator is always charging the battery and the power gets taken off the battery not the generator which is why generators need servicing more often and batteries don't last as long, due to too much constant churn. Am I right?

IF that IS the case, then an intermittent break inside the battery would kill everything, engine and lights all at one. If it is intermittent (for now) it might not show up in a static test ie, while note being vibrated or thumped around over bumps. It still could be a hidden (under the covering) flex/rot break inside a major cable. You might try after it goes out to feel the positive and negative cables to see if there are any weird loose or bendy spots, or hot spots
KF
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63 4dr Wagonaire 259V8 o/d Blue
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custom

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Re: short
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2011, 12:53:34 PM »
If the generator is charging sufficiently, the engine will run even if you remove a battery cable. (An older mechanic showed me that trick)   -    Low engine rpm or idling could be reducing the output of the generator to the point the engine will die. (when the battery has a problem)
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Jim B PEI

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Re: short
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2011, 02:52:52 PM »
So therefore, with a battery/generator, his Kaiser should NOT suddenly go dark AND stop after a bump or slowing down etc. Now it sounds like another crucial part of the circuit is intermittently breaking contact other than the battery.

If a Kaiser were a car which had--like some makes were--a full system circuit breaker, that might explain it. Especially if it suddenly starts working again after a delay.

It sounds like one of the main cables is losing connection so neither the generator nor the battery is powering anything. Heat expansion+bump?
KF
49 Kaiser Special Glass Green, Saskatchewan new
Studebaker
64 2dr 170-6 auto Astra White Commander Special
63 4dr Wagonaire 259V8 o/d Blue
57 4dr 185-6 auto Glendale Green/Turquoise
57 4dr 185-6 o/d Glendale Green/Turquoise W6 clone
lawn art
57 Stude 259V8 auto. 56 Panhard

Logan

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Re: short
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2011, 03:34:06 PM »
Bumps don't seem to set it off.  It never happens at high speeds--anything over even 20 mph.  The only times it happens are when I'm coming to a stop, decelerating.  Then, it usually takes a few minutes and will start back up.  But everything always goes down, lights, engine, all of it.