Engine Won't Start Now

[FleetMaster]

All the best of luck.  One good thing about flatheads, unlike modern high compression close tolerance engines.  If a modern engine is out of time, engine and valves, parts will hit and break- often fatal and $$$$$$$  Flatheads cab be assembled wrong and live to run another day.

Scott K

[shadetree77]

OK, Got the timing chain lined up correctly. Put everything back together. Now everything is lining up. Tried to start the engine and it's doing EXACTLY what it was doing back when I started it for the first time. It's trying to start but the starter keeps kicking out and spinning before it can fire up. Last time it did this I just kept on trying and trying until it finally started. Jim suggested that I had a stuck open valve and when the rotation of the engine was reaching the cylinder with the stuck valve it was making the starter spin too fast and it was kicking out. This makes perfect sense as I know that I have one stuck exhaust valve in the number 6 cylinder (I had TWO stuck when I started it the first time). I was going to try an unsticking method once I got the engine started. For now I'm going to keep trying and hope I get lucky like last time. In the meantime, anyone have any other suggestions? Oh, and seeing as it might come to me taking off the cylinder head to unstick the valve, where do you guys get new head bolts?

[rialto]

Try a compression test now.  Is the distributor in right? Try the thumb in #1 to find the right TDC. It should still start with one or two stuck valves.  Are you getting any backfire or flames?

[shadetree77]

Compression test results: 1-55psi, 2-55psi, 3-0psi, 4-0psi, 5-45psi, 6-0psi.  Looks like I have a LOT more stuck valves than I thought!! I knew about 4 and 6 and I thought I got 4 unstuck. Found TDC and everything lines up PERFECTLY so timing is right. At one point I got a little puff back through the carb. No flames, just a puff of vapor. Only happened once. What's the next step here? Valve job?

[joefrazer]

I'm surprised to see so many cylinders with zero compression. That's almost always indicative of timing issues or valves that are stuck open. You can remove the valve inspection cover without removing the manifolds...try that and spin the engine with the starter with the plugs removed. Observe valve operation to see if they are returning. Broken or weak valve springs will cause the same problem.

[boatingbill]

Take off the right (front passenger tire) and you see a inner panel that is removable, This allows access to the valve cover so you
can watch the valve action when it is removed. Buy a can of engine fogging oil (at marine dealer) and spray it into each cylinder, It
looks like shaving cream. Put the plugs back in a thread or so and let sit overnight, Next day remove plugs and turning over engine
watching the valve action. This is on the zero and low reading cylinders. You may get lucky after several times of fogging to get the
valves unstuck. It is doubtful that you can get 3.4.5,6 all free, but it is worth a try. I bought my hardened head bolts at a tractor
supply store. They sold them by the pound! A complete set was about $12.

[rialto]

55 seems really low for the "good" cylinders. If you are positive the chain is on right try putting a few squirts of motor oil in the good cylinders. Then do another compression test. See if it improves. It won't start on 55. It may start on 75 or more.

[shadetree77]

Tried putting some oil in the cylinders. It brought the compression up to around 75. Dumped oil in the 3 good cylinders, quickly put everything back together, and tried to start it. It is trying to start. I can hear some of the cylinders firing. But every time they do the starter kicks out and spins. If the starter would stay engaged I believe that the engine would eventually start. I am also trying to free up the valves in the other 3 cylinders. I couldn't find a fogging oil that was a shaving cream consistency so I bought some Seafoam Spray. Sprayed them down heavily and put the plugs back in loosely. Will let that sit overnight and see what happens. Going to pull the wheel well cover and tappet cover next time I'm out there so I can see what's going on. Got a feeling that head's coming off no matter what I do though. We shall see.

[kaiserkid]

My 54 had starter problems like what you are experiencing. I had the starter rebuilt, now it doesn't kick out anymore.

[shadetree77]

Inspection cover removed. I have a good view of the valve action now. Confirmed that two valves are stuck open. That accounts for two of my three dead cylinders. However....the third cylinder is a mystery. It would appear that both valves are opening and closing normally. They both seat at the same height that all of the working cylinders seat. Just for the heck of it I dumped a teaspoon of oil in that cylinder and the compression jumped to about 20. So does that mean I have worn out or broken rings in that cylinder? Man, if I have to take that oil pan off again I'm just going to pull the whole engine, replace everything, and be done with it. Oh, and the seafoam didn't appear to help the stuck valves. 

[joefrazer]

I think the rings are either worn or stuck and when you dump oil in the cylinder it's temporarily sealing them and bumping compression. My 50K exhibited the same symptoms...low compression that would come up with oil in the cylinder. I pulled the engine and found the rings were worn so I just rebuilt the whole thing.

[shadetree77]

That's what I thought. Well, there goes my plan to have the car back on the road this summer. Always next year I guess. A few questions:

When you pulled the engine, how did you do it? By that I mean how did you attach the cherry picker? I have a lift plate. Will that work or do I need to get some of those that have the loop hooked to them and mount to a single bolt?

Did you leave the trans. in the car or take it out too? If you left it in, does it have to be supported? Which way is easier, leaving it in or taking it out attached to the engine?

I called a very well respected machine shop today and had them give me an estimate for total rebuild (all new internal parts and all the machining). The estimate was $3000-$3200. This was a LOT higher than I thought. What do you guys think?

[joefrazer]

Remove the hood radiator, hood latch support and front bumper...that will make engine removal much easier. Remove the engine and transmission together...it's much easier. Drain the trans first or you'll have fluid everywhere as the drive shaft acts as the rear seal.

I used a cherry picker with a load leveler and two large straps designed for engine lifting. A word of warning, the engine coupled to the cast iron hydramatic is heavy so make sure your lift chain or straps are up to the job.

$3k sounds about right to rebuild a 226. I had a bit less in mine because I worked at a parts store and bought the parts at cost. My labor cost was somewhere around $1800.

[shadetree77]

Thanks Jim. Front bumper is already off. Was looking at the latch support today. Doesn't look too difficult. Have to get some help with the hood. I've got a 2 ton cherry picker and a 2 ton load leveler. Those should be able to handle the engine and trans. I'll take off the water pump and the generator to lighten it a bit too. Thanks for the information. Since I have to pull the oil pan and take out pistons, do you think it is worth it to take the engine out of the car? I'm still trying to decide whether I should try to do this with the engine in or just pull it.

[joefrazer]

I would pull the engine. The flywheel acts as the front cover of the torque converter and they're mated together with a few dozen bolts. If you try to drop the crank with the engine in the car, you'll need to removed the converter bolts, then loosen the transmission to slide it back just to get at the flywheel to crank bolts. Trust me, it's much easier to pull both as one assembly and then remove the transmission with both out of the car. Been there and done that.