Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Willys Forum => Topic started by: jneely on March 17, 2017, 11:23:02 AM
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Hello from metro Detroit!
After many years of sitting in the corner of the barn, I think it's finally time to start in on my Willys project car. It's been waiting patiently, while I finish other projects, all the while hunting for parts and saving up some cash. It seems there are a few folks here with Aero projects- and knowledge - so I figured I'd join up and share.
I bought the car years ago from a family friend in Arkansas, who I normally went to for Model T and A Ford parts. The car was complete, running, and in decent condition. It has been repainted and the driver's fender replaced at some point, but is original otherwise. I don't know much else about its history. It appears to have spent most of it's life in Missouri, based on the old inspection tags left on the windshield. It is in decent mechanical condition, and I've driven it around the yard, but the brakes are out. There is some rust in the drivers floor, rear quarter and trunk lid.
My plans are to restore it, as completely as I can (and can afford.) Although, I have considered upgrading to a Brazilian twin carburetor setup. I think it would be neat to have a subtle hot rod, that most folks would never realize wasn't factory. We'll see if I can manage to find and get the parts required.
I've started on the teardown last weekend. The front clip is off, but it's slow going to take a bunch of pictures and bag and tag everything. More to come in the following weeks as I make a bit more progress.
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Welcome to the club! I am in the UP. Look forward to hearing more about your car!
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jneely, sounds like a great project! Way before I became interested in K-F products, I was a big fan of the Willys Aero. It probably started when I read an article (or maybe a book) about Clyde Paton who had a major (or the major) part in the mechanical design of the car. The car was impressive to me because it was quite advanced mechanically for its time, plus nicely styled. I've always wanted one..............
But I've gotten off on a rabbit trail. :)
Looking forward to progress reports and pictures on the progress of your Aero. Welcome!
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................... going to take a bunch of pictures and bag and tag everything......................
Congrats on starting your project!
Buy a variety of ziplocs & a good permanent marker for your parts, and take more photos than you think you'll need.You definitely won't regret it.
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I keep having issues uploading pictures for some reason. It will upload the attachments, then the page goes blank, and the post is nowhere to be found.
I'll try photobucket, but it is a bit less streamlined.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/20151229_142009.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/20151229_142009.jpg.html)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/20151229_142044.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/20151229_142044.jpg.html)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/20151229_142023.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/20151229_142023.jpg.html)
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It will be fun to see your car come back to life. The two antennas are interesting ....two radios ? :)
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I like the color.
Pics are always welcome!
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Good looking car. Looks like a really good cleaning inside and out would make it presentable to drive, but I know you are going for a full restoration.
Love those Aero hardtops! :)
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Yeah, I'm not sure what someone had in mind with adding a second antennae... Symmetry? Improved reception? They aren't exactly the same - I expect one is an aftermarket or from another make.
So perhaps you all can help with this; the ID tag on the firewall is perplexing to me. From what I see in the parts manuals, the definition of a model 475 is a vehicle equipped with a flathead I-4 engine. Mine has an F-head, which I believe to be original, which I also believe was standard in a '53 Aero-Eagle. It should be, therefore, a 685, correct? I'm trying to figure out if the tag is from another car.
The color scheme on this car has also been somewhat perplexing, as well. I can see remnants of the black paint on the roof and the maroon color underhood and inside the car. Raven Black over Saber Rouge should match up to my color codes, if I'm not mistaken. The red and white vinyl interior has always thrown me. It's hard to envision the car with everything the way it ought to be, and the white seems to clash - such that I've considered just painting the roof white. Does this seem correct to you folks? Have you ever seen a black and red car with a white and red interior? The 1954 color combinations are well documented in the dealer reference book on CircleKF, but the 1953 is less so.
Any help appreciated.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/20170311_191231.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/20170311_191231.jpg.html)
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I'm with you on the 475 designation. I read somewhere that the 475's were export only but a 4cyl Aero turned up in a MO. scrapyard a couple yrs ago. From what I've seen, not all Aeros are built according to advertised standards.
I don't know much about interior trim codes but the seats are usually part cloth, part vinyl.
Here's a link you should check out http://clubs.hemmings.com/willysaero/ (http://clubs.hemmings.com/willysaero/)
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I agree that the seats should be cloth where the white inserts are. Here is a pic of a 53 Red and Whits car with red and white interior...looks that perhaps yours was redone at some point
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The 475-2DR-DLX belongs to a 1953 export Lark 2-door, of which there were only 47 built (much rarer than your car). Taylor showed you a pic of what your interior trim should look like.
Wish I had my papers handy, I could translate the "94" code in the trim section. I thought it was in the parts manual, but it's not. Will have to research it a bit.
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Any help appreciated.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/20170311_191231.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/20170311_191231.jpg.html)
Your tag raises some interesting questions for me. It's attached with what looks very much like original screws and has over-spray, so it's been attached at least as long as the repaint. I also wonder (if it was originally properly stamped/attached) how 1 of 47 export body tags ended upon your domestic car.
Since you're tearing the car down, I'd look carefully at the alternate engine crossmember bolt holes on the frame rails for evidence of the crossmember being mounted other than where it is now. I would also pull the body tag and carefully examine the back for anything that would match or mismatch the firewall.
One thing you've got going for you is the trim & paint codes, it should be easy to see if they match the paint under the re-paint, and the year of your door post tag.
I have a left over '53 titled as a '54 and there's times i think it was assembled from whatever was within easy reach as it went down the line.
Tags are easy to swap but I wouldn't automatically discount a factory error, especially is your door serial number is late '53.
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Would a car going to Canada be considered an 'export' and thus get the 475 designation? I notice the owner lives in Michigan so could a Canadian car have easily migrated across the border to Michigan?
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Wow, this only gets more and more confounding…
Anybody know what the Body Number on the tag indicates?
I won't discount anything - be it a factory misbuild or a Canadian car. But that said, I brought the car here from southern US. It wasn't a short trip from Canada.
In any case, it is definitely a hard top. There's no B-pillar. Everything other than this body tag (and perhaps the upholstery) is all 1953 Aero-Eagle 685A Hard Top Sedan. VIN is 653-MC1-15###. I believe the exports were all conventional 'post' sedans, correct?
The front cross members have not been relocated.
I just picked up a copy of the green parts book, which is the excerpt that Aeroman posted. For the 685A HTS, there are two options in each of three color schemes of green, blue or deep red. Codes 87, 89 and 91 have dark gray cloth inserts and 93, 95, and 97 have light gray vinyl inserts. There is no 94 trim code listed. 91 or 97 codes would correspond to the deep red options. Perhaps the second digit was re-worked? I don't know, but none of the 90-something codes would have been available on a 475A car.
The interior on this car is in decent shape. There are enough stains, scuffs, cracks and tears, that I intend to completely replace everything, but they are good patterns. There is some yellowing, but it is clear from the less visible areas that all of the insets were a plain white vinyl. They are old - the vinyl is cracked, particularly on the top of the rear seat where it would've had some UV exposure. IF it was reupholstered, it was done long ago - on what would've been a pretty new car. The door panels are puffy. I don't know the proper term, but the upholstery is over a spongy foam surface. I don't know if that is original, or how hard it would be to remove and reupholster…
I am now entirely uncertain of what the interior of my car needs to look like. Was it some weird special order that I need to recreate and preserve? Should I recreate someone's vision for customization from decades ago? Did somebody tamper with the Body Tag, and I should just put it back the way it left the factory?
I recall, it's been about 10 years or so ago, that there was a black and red 53 hard top on Ebay, and I downloaded and saved all of the photos from the listing. It was in decent original shape, and I knew they'd be good references. Now, I have no idea where I stashed them - I've been through a couple of PC's since then. I don't recall what the interior on that car looked like.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/20170318_125938.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/20170318_125938.jpg.html)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/20170318_125931.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/20170318_125931.jpg.html)
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The body tag is very curious.....but from what I see in your pictures, it is clearly an Eagle and a survivor .That said, I am sure it had paint and interior work as most cars would have over that period of time. It does give you some options to bring it back to some options of your choice.Though my car is green, this should give you an idea of original trim
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Here's better pics of what your car should look like with the standard Eagle interior of 1953, with cloth inserts. in the first two pics, the carpet is incorrect and the cloth inserts are close to the original design. Missing are the plastic seat hinge covers. The third pic shows these. The car in the 3rd pic was owned new by Eleanor Paton, daughter of Clyde paton, father of the Aero.
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Wow, this only gets more and more confounding…
Anybody know what the Body Number on the tag indicates?
I won't discount anything - be it a factory misbuild or a Canadian car. But that said, I brought the car here from southern US. It wasn't a short trip from Canada.
In any case, it is definitely a hard top. There's no B-pillar. Everything other than this body tag (and perhaps the upholstery) is all 1953 Aero-Eagle 685A Hard Top Sedan. VIN is 653-MC1-15###. I believe the exports were all conventional 'post' sedans, correct?
The front cross members have not been relocated.
I am now entirely uncertain of what the interior of my car needs to look like. Was it some weird special order that I need to recreate and preserve? Should I recreate someone's vision for customization from decades ago? Did somebody tamper with the Body Tag, and I should just put it back the way it left the factory?
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/20170318_125938.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/20170318_125938.jpg.html)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/20170318_125931.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/20170318_125931.jpg.html)
Well, sounds like you've always had the 6cyl.
I think your best shot is to see if you can match your trim codes to any traces of original paint & upholstry. If they match your body tag codes then I'd be inclined to think your codes were stamped on an export tag that mistakenly went down the line with your car........... just my 2 cents. If it wasn't such a rare tag then I'd be more inclined to consider an intentional swap, but 1 of 47 export tags isn't something the average guy is ever going to run across, and there'd be nothing to gain mounting an obviously mis-matched tag to your car.
I've stripped 3 cars, '52 & '53 and also had occasion to sort through a stack of NOs door panels years ago. None that I've seen had foam backing between the vinyl and door board.
The interior code on my car calls for seat upholstry I've seen on several cars, yet when I peel the aftermarket covers off, the originals underneath are different. Trying to get a match on them now. Maybe you'll find something under the current covers on yours.
Your best hope is if Aeroman can decipher your unlisted codes, I doubt if anyone has more detailed Aero documentation than him.
As for originality, if your codes match the original paint, that's how I'd go but that's just me
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Thanks to all for the replies.
It had never occurred to me that that dang interior wasn't original, but that's interesting that you haven't seen another with the foam padding.
As it so happens, I was able to locate those photos I saved from a car on Ebay. Dated 1-Oct 08. I'll be danged if it isn't literally the 1st car shown in the pictures Aeroman posted. Red carpet and all.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/b67b_1.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/b67b_1.jpg.html)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/GuitarRock04/Willys/66f8_1.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/GuitarRock04/media/Willys/66f8_1.jpg.html)
What is the white steering wheel shown in the other car? Is that a 'deluxe steering wheel?' I see it referenced in the optional equipment section of the parts manuals, but haven't seen any other detail or description.
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Yes, a deluxe pearlite steering wheel was an option. I had an NOS wheel that went to a friend to whom I sold my 54 Aero Eagle Custom. It has the same red and white interior as your car.
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Here is an advertisement for the Eagle interior...looks to be the two tone red and black car
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Brochure shot is pretty accurate. There were two deluxe steering wheels: the ivory tenite wheel with the chrome spoke cover and the black hard rubber one with the chrome spoke cover. Standard wheel is the black hard rubber with no spoke covers. Also, I believe your car should have a full horn ring, not a half ring, but I cannot document that. Car in my pics and on ebay belong(ed) to Mike Matulac, formerly or possibly still a club member.
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I got the front seat out last night. I took one of the seat back covers off, in hopes that perhaps there was some clue or maybe a remnant of the factory upholstery lurking underneath. All I found was a mouse nest - go figure.
Does anyone see anything significant? Would a plastic bag have been used at the factory to install a seat upholstery cover? Does the Naugahyde mark on the underside look similar to something on an original cover? The white is labelled 1-74 and the red 11-73.
I found a very small piece of what I believe to be original red vinyl, on the edges of the rear package tray. They are pretty nasty, but I will attempt to clean it up for use as a match on the original color for reupholstery.
Any insight appreciated.
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I would imagine 1-74 and 11-73 are manufacture dates. Plastic bags are sometimes used when the cover is a little tight so the cover will slide over the cotton batting, whether it's good or bad, I wouldn't suggest it, and I'm quite confident the factory would not do that. If the cover is installed properly, no plastic is needed.
Gary.
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I haven't stripped my seats yet but so far have not seen any signs of plastic in the holes or edges I peeled back. I've seen modern (non automotive) upholstery video of plastic being used to ease covers going over foam. I don't have a clue how far back that practice goes, and I've never seen plastic under any auto seat covers.
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I've used the plastic trick before on some Model A Ford seat covers from LeBarron Bonney. It does make a world of difference, but I pulled the plastic down and cut it to remove once the upholstery was in place. I didn't think about the stamps being date codes, but I suppose that is pretty likely. I think I'm pretty well solidified on 'all signs point to reupholstery' for this thing, then.
Can anyone confirm if the original seat and door panel insets of grey fabric would match that used for the headliner in a 685A HTS? Kind of a light grey soft fuzzy stuff. There are some small section remnants of the headliner that were still underneath the retainers in decent enough condition to attempt a match.
I think I may have enough clues to try and reconstruct, although I am definitely watching for any original sample I might be able to find, if I come across a junk kick panel or something to use as a better reference for the pleating pattern.
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I have never seen factory seats with the plastic "bags" over the cotton batting.
SMS has some very close gray striped cloth for the inserts. I used it in my car and am very pleased. The red vinyl I got from them was a bit brighter than original but I let it slide. Perhaps my original darkened with age. I have saved my original vinyl for reference but my cloth was replaced long before I got the car.
I will see if I can find the color pics from Richard Carpenter's green 40K Eagle that was featured in SIA magazine many years ago. I saw that car when Mr. Carpenter owned it (circa 1983) and it was 100% original and very well preserved.
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Aeroman posted this one of the Carpenter car to the FB page
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SMS has some very close gray striped cloth for the inserts. I used it in my car and am very pleased. The red vinyl I got from them was a bit brighter than original but I let it slide. Perhaps my original darkened with age. I have saved my original vinyl for reference but my cloth was replaced long before I got the car.....................
SMS can send you a good variety of cloth samples to choose from. They can also duplicate the heat embossed "stitch" lines in the vinyl. If you could find someone with your trim code and get good resolution photos for the cloth pattern & vinyl "stitch" spacing you can probably get a reasonably close match. Don't expect them to be fast though.
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Another update on my car: to add to the perplexity of the firewall tag, it looks as though the car is blue/green on the underside. Since approximately 1953. Has anyone seen ever seen anything like this? Were these cars dip painted at the factory?
My car was undoubtedly repainted red at some point in its life. But having the car stripped down and the underside readily visible on the rotisserie, it it evident that the underside is a robin's egg blue/green color. I can see on the right front fender well where the original Saber Rouge maroon color was sprayed over it. This looks to me like a factory respray, or this color was supposed to have been used on the bottom. The color is very clear on top of the fuel tank.
The color isn't quite a perfect match for the 1953 Willys paint chips I have, though I suppose it could be Willow Green Poly if I squint long enough.
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It could be a 52 color if it was an early production 53.....it looks close to Merritt Burrus's car on the FB page. It was a very well done respray. My early 54 Eagle is a 53 color. Was the backside of the dash green ?
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This subject was bandied about a bit when I got to where you are on my project. There's doesn't seem to be a hard & fast rule on underbody color except that when painted, it matches body color.
http://kfclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,6456.msg29943.html#msg29943 (http://kfclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,6456.msg29943.html#msg29943)
It's possibly your car has a factory repaint but I don't think it's likely since those front fender wells would be glaringly different when new, and then....... why go to all that trouble when sales were still good?
I have an Aero friend that states very matter of factly that the Murray bodies were dipped in the final color of paint. Although I've seen other makes bodies primed that way, I can't see how the reality of runs could be avoided with paint.
Barnum could be right about a '52 color, my '54 is a '53 color. Find the least weathered spot and compound it to a shine for a good look.
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The dash, as well as all of the other painted interior components are Saber Rouge maroon. Back side of the dash is red oxide primer. Same with the doors, trunk and right fender (which are all original to the car.) Just maroon.
The rear fender wells are blue on top, with maroon on the bottom, in the areas visible from the rear wheel wells. That spot shown in a prior post on the right inner fender is the only evidence of blue I've found top side.
My car is an upper 15000's serial number, which I believe indicates it's later in the 1953 run. At least it was assigned a VIN later in the production run.
MarkH, thanks for that linked post. I had not come across that thread before, and it seems there is a precedent for a different color on bottom side of an original car. Albeit, black would be more typical or expected than this blue color.
Thanks to all for the help
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I saw a LOT of traces of gloss black on various parts but my cars were so rusty the dividing line where firewall/body color changed to the gloss black above the tank was long gone. All the other color I found on both cars was body color or red oxide, dash backside was red oxide.
I've heard of dash's repainted to match new body colors, 2 tone grey was original on many cars, and some were originally painted to match exterior but with just the more subtle of the 2 metallics added to exterior color. You might find something there when you sand yours down.
Another telling clue is the front floor deadener panel photoyou graciously posted for me.... a BIG help. That panel was not red, the remains of all mine were definitely body color.
My gut feeling is the aqua/turquoise/blue you're finding is factory............. but it's your car so go for what you like!
Red sells............ and you bought a red car! ;D
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The blue-green underside is exactly what my 54 Eagle had. I believe it to be the factory primer color.
I am in Shelby Township with a similarly colored interior (now in pieces). If you want to compare things.