Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum

General Category => Henry J & Allstate Forum => Topic started by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on December 05, 2017, 10:25:53 AM

Title: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on December 05, 2017, 10:25:53 AM
As KFOCI members know, Barbara & I got a 1952 Henry J Corsair Deluxe at the end of June 2017.  I'm taking time over the "off season" to give the car an annual inspection and ponder the question of adding an oil filter (the factory type for a HJ 6) to the car.  I'm sticking to the oil change schedule in the HJ Shop manual and the owner manual (1,000-2,000 miles) which was establlished by Willys-Overland based on having no filter.

Having never owned a Henry J before, I have to admit there is a lot I don't know about the car.  My question is wether or not I should put an oil filter on it.  What do owners of the car types have to say if they have a filter unit or don't have a filter unit?
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: Corsairdeluxe on December 05, 2017, 11:19:52 AM
THAT"S DAMSGUY"S J!! Do not waste your time on it... Sell it to me,I'll take it off your hand's. Remember this offer when you first try to add brake fluid.

The oil filter on a Henry J is next to useless and potentially dangerous. It robs the oil gallery of oil that could be better used somewhere else.I take them off my J's.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: njpatera on December 05, 2017, 11:43:27 AM
Curious...How does the wash filter starve an area of oil? When changing oil, wouldn't you simply fill the canister also to assure the system is truly full?  Done on our tractors forever...I'm just trying to see this side of the debate better:-)
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: Corsairdeluxe on December 05, 2017, 11:58:43 AM
The output of the oil pump goes to the gallery. With no filter all the output goes to the engine. When the filter is added,it taps the gallery. Now part goes to the engine and part to the filter.The engine parts nearest the tap,arguably,receive less pressure and flow.
Why take the chance?

Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: njpatera on December 05, 2017, 12:06:04 PM
follow up:but if the system is full(included extra to compensate the lines), is anything truly lost or missing to starve? It would now be a full system not allowing anything to starve...At least that has been my understanding...I could see starving if oil levels were low. Appreciate the banter by the way:-)
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: Fid on December 05, 2017, 01:58:18 PM
As someone who's owned, maintained and driven Henry Js for over 40 years, I would never put an oil filter on one.  They are bypass type filters (as Corsair Deluxe describes), very inefficient and introduce more points for leaking and failure.  Also makes changing the oil a pain as you have locate and install an expensive cartridge and try to get it to seal after doing so.  When we acquired Edgar Kaiser's Henry J, it had a Purolator filter on it and it leaked like a sieve.  In order to maintain authenticity on the car we just disconnected the lines and blocked them but left the oil filter assembly in place.  No problems.  Change the oil every 1,000 miles and you'll never have a problem.  We rebuilt the engine in my blue '53 J back in 1971. I've put 30,000 miles on it since and always change the oil every 1,000 miles or sooner.  After 46 years, the car does not smoke, uses no oil and has never had any engine work done on it.  I put a rebuilt engine (161 six) in my '52 Vagabond back in '01.  No filter, no smoking and no oil consumption after 16 years and 20,000 miles.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: njpatera on December 05, 2017, 02:44:19 PM
That's very helpful Fid!...So from a maintenance stand point, more negatives than positives...but mechanically, I guess I was trying to get to...Do they cause damage to an engine by starving an area? (I'm new to the 161)...Whereas my Y-blocks, The heads always have oiling issues, but they also use a canister or spin on, both to the block.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: MarkH on December 05, 2017, 03:07:15 PM
All the "nay" votes are valid. The oil pump will only deliver a certain number of gallons per minute, and pressure, depending on pump & engine bearing wear. The potential "starvation" issue comes from dividing the pump output between bearings & filter, especially in an engine with some wear.

Nice looking car!
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: Fid on December 05, 2017, 04:13:51 PM
Quote
Do they cause damage to an engine by starving an area?

I've never done a study but in theory that makes sense as the oil filter on the 161 (and 226 and 134) is not part of the oil circulation path as it is on modern engines.
It just provides a side path in parallel that goes through the filter meaning, yes oil that is going into the filter path is oil that is not going to the bearings.
Due to this, it is likely that most of the oil doesn't even get filtered, only that which happens to get sloshed over into the filter.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on December 07, 2017, 09:04:29 AM
Just to advise, the K-F oil filter that I have for the car (as well as those I noted on cars at this year's National Convention in Prescott) use the P-70FF type filter cartridge.  I probably have enough of those on hand (because they were used in Kaisers and I built up a bank of them for the cars I had over the years) for the car to outlast me.

Since nobody (especially including FID who's one of the club's more knowledgeable people on HJ's) responding feels that it will be helpful, as long as I stick to the oil change schedule, I should skip the thing.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: Fid on December 07, 2017, 03:18:18 PM
BTW, I didn't mention - your car looks very nice Jack!   Yes, it is Doug E's former car and a very well preserved '52 Corsair Deluxe.  Very nice original McConnell plaid upholstery.  It should be fun!
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on December 07, 2017, 10:58:16 PM
BTW  It is fun!  I drove it back home over the Casades on HY 12 rather than the interstate because of construction, accidents and other traffic problems.  Got 26 mpg and it went up & down hills just fine.  Barbara likes riding in it and has driven it.  We brought in at least 2 new club members as a result of them finding out 1)there is a club that acts as a support net, 2)that you can get parts for them at prices that are affordable and 3)cars themselves are not as overpriced as people thing (because you don't see them at general local car shows, many people believe that owners lock them up as museum pieces).

I want to keep it as proginal as I can over the years.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: DTort96646 on December 09, 2017, 03:39:17 PM
Hello folks, I've been reading this thread about oil filters for a bit and I have to add my observations. Both the 161 and 226 engines used in Kaiser and Frazer cars have oil pumps that feed the crankshaft main and rod bearings first, then the flow is to the camshaft bearings and tappet galley. The 161 has the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump and the 226 has the oil pressure relief valve in the block main lower oil galley. The oil filters are fed after the oil is fed to the mains, rods, camshaft bearings, and tappets. The oil filter element provides enough restriction not to drop the oil pressure in the engine. In other words whether or not you have a factory approved oil filter will not, cannot starve the main, rod or camshaft bearings of oil, because these areas are fed first. There would have to be no element in the filter housing to even begin to lower the oil pressure because all the oil flow and consequently oil pressure does not go into the oil filter. The bypass  oil filter feed  galley is after the tappet galley. I myself would rather have a partial flow oil filter than no oil filter. If you have an engine with a bypass oil filter that has low or no oil pressure, you probably have worn main, rod or camshaft bearings. The cause is probably from improper maintenance, abuse, wrong oil, or just plain worn out parts.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: njpatera on December 09, 2017, 04:21:25 PM
Now that is a great explanation! I was looking at some engine diagrams the other day and was mulling this over. I had a hard time digesting a starvation issue. Even looked at some old PurOlator and Fram sites to read up on their systems and materials back in the day and general engineering.  I came away with the acceptance that these early designs were...as mentioned...inefficient, but I too will take the filter knowing its only going to wash about 10% of the volume at a time. Then there is the argument of detergent and non-detergent oil in the filterless motors:-)
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: DTort96646 on December 09, 2017, 09:18:17 PM
The engine oils used back in the 50's were not what is made today. High detergent motor oils were available in the 50's and were designated as premium motor oil. The norm was to use regular non detergent motor oil of single viscosity. These oils did not clean well and with the relatively cool running engines of the day (170 to 180 degrees), that black wax looking crud would build up inside the engines. The recommendation was not to switch to premium oil if you had been using non detergent oil, because the detergents would loosen that wax like junk and it would collect in the oil pan and then plug the oil pickup screen. The end result would be oil starvation and a damaged engine. If your engine is relatively clean inside, a good high detergent oil would be okay. I also like multi viscosity oil like 10W-30. Again only if your engine is clean inside. If the engine has some miles on it or has never been rebuilt with moly rings, stay with non detergent straight viscosity oil. 30W for example. This is from my experience over 50 years of auto repair.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: njpatera on December 10, 2017, 07:24:49 AM
Again, great explanation...a confirmation to what the info on the filter sites state that I’ve been exploring.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on December 10, 2017, 10:30:03 AM
OK, oil filter installation is back on the table.  I can start cleaning up the canister unit & repaint it after Barbara & I move into the new house; we hope to be settled in by Christmas.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: Fid on December 10, 2017, 11:35:12 AM
I appreciate the explanation regarding the oil distribution part. As mentioned, I have not seen nor studied that aspect of it but I stand by my previous comments regarding the practicality of this type of filter. Regardless, change  the oil every 1,000 miles or whenever it looks dirty. That's really the key.
 
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: MarkH on December 10, 2017, 05:51:30 PM
I'm still squarely in the camp that any oil going elsewhere is not available to go to the bearings. The pump can only introduce a finite amount of oil into the system, my pump tested at 1.2 gallons per minute. The system as designed returns (leaks) oil back into the sump at each bearing, and at the filter if fitted. In the 161 F-head, that also includes the rocker arm bushings. The bearings, bushings (and filter) are all communicating through the same oiling system and any one part (or parts) worn or flowing (leaking) more oil than the others determines the maximun pressure of the entire oiling system.
Be that as it may, maybe the back pressure required to force oil through the filter insures all bearings receive enough lube to maintain a barrier film. Maybe worn bearings get all the pump output, and back pressure at the filter stops the loss there? I have no idea, but being a common system, they all receive the same pressurized oil trying to find a way back to the sump. The Ford Maverick version F-head had a modern full flow spin on filter at the oil pump that eliminated this issue altogether, all oil returning to the sump flows through the bearings.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: DTort96646 on December 10, 2017, 06:49:36 PM
In these engines, the oil flow is dedicated to the main bearings first. Then from the mains in the crankshaft, the oil flow goes to the rod bearings and some of that oil squirts to the cylinder walls. At the same time through another main bearing oil galley feeds the camshaft bearings and then the tappets. The oil filter is fed last from the tappet oil galley. Think of it like a garden hose that feeds a lawn sprinkler. The main hose feeds the first lawn sprinkler (main bearings and rod bearings), then goes to the next sprinkler(camshaft bearings and tappets), the next sprinkler has a much smaller feed hose ( a restricted flow) from the second sprinkler in line ( feeds the oil filter and oil pressure gauge). The pressure drops to a degree depending on how many sprinklers you have, but the pressure is still greatest at the first sprinkler (main bearings and rod bearings.) The oil does not flow from the pump to the oil filter at the same time it flows to the mains and rods. The oil flow is not split into separate channels, but goes to the 4 main bearings at the same time. Actually oil returns (leaks) to the crankcase from each of the lubricated parts inside the engine including but not limited to the mains, rods, camshaft bearings and tappets. The largest leak will cause the greatest pressure loss. The pressure loss from the oil filter is always the same because of the line size and the filter medium, and does not cause a loss in oil pressure as the engine wears. If the filter element gets plugged, there will be no oil pressure loss from the filter. These are only partial flow filters.  I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: DTort96646 on December 10, 2017, 07:12:52 PM
Hi Folks, just to add I'm not trying to change anyone's mind regarding oil filters. Just trying to clarify what actually happens and how the oil flows in the 161 and 226 engines. Actually all modern day engines.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: Fid on December 10, 2017, 09:35:00 PM
I appreciate your comments DTort96646. That's what these boards are about. Sharing information.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: MarkH on December 10, 2017, 10:19:46 PM
I'm with you on the point of not trying to influence others to add or remove a filter, just engaging in the discussion. It's certainly made me study my engine in more detail. Not having the filter I had to find exactly where one would plumb in. Also, I have no knowledge whatsoever of the 226 engine oiling system.

I'm seeing a different layout of the 161 F-head oil galleries than you describe. Looks like a common main gallery with galleries branching off to communally feed nearby cam, main & rod galleries. I don't see any reason why the oil pressure wouldn't apply just as equally to the oil filter input as it does to the front main & cam bearings.

 Thanks for the earlier input on engine oil. My engine had what might be described as a thick coating of oil mayonnaise in various areas when it was opened up. Something I certainly want to avoid repeating.
Title: Re: Oil Fiilters on HJ and Allstate
Post by: DTort96646 on December 11, 2017, 08:02:58 AM
Mark H, great diagram from the Willys service manual page 39. Page 38 explains the diagram in good detail and follows the flow from the oil pump to the main oil passage, to the mains, rods, etc, from the galley above the front camshaft bearing that leads to the outside of the block that connects to the external oil filter housing.