Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ForgottenTwoManhattans on November 12, 2019, 10:31:11 PM
-
Hello there, fine folks!
Well, everyone makes a first post at some point, and this is mine. I have just joined the Kaiser world for the first time, having purchased a pair of 1953 Manhattans. In a nutshell, an older fellow who hoarded vehicles(among other things!) passed away, leaving behind at least a couple dozen vintage cars. Among them were these two Manhattans. I actually went to check out another vehicle they were selling from his estate, but that one didn't work out. These cars caught my attention however, and the price was right, so I jumped in!
As the story goes, the better condition of these two cars has been parked and hasn't run since 1970. It appears quite solid in terms of body, having no cancerous rust that I can find anywhere. Unfortunately it does have some key issues, namely needing a new windshield and taillights, which I know will not be easy to find for this car. The windshields, headlights and taillights were recently shot out by kids with BB guns(among many, many pieces of glass on the various other cars that were left behind as well). Obviously the car will need much more work than just those bits, but by my estimation, those will be the two most difficult things to find that will actually prevent me from safely and legally driving it once I get it roadworthy.
The good news is that I believe the engine will run again. The engine in the better of the two cars turned easily using just an 8" ratchet, so that is very encouraging. Another fellow who purchased several other cars from this estate has already gotten some of his cars running that were similarly stored, so that gives me encouragement that this one was also a runner when it was parked, and that the conditions were such that the cylinders and whatnot have not suffered much if any rust. So my first step will be to carefully go through the steps to resurrect the engine. I am a professional classic car mechanic by trade, and have revived many an old engine after decades-long slumber parties, so this is old hat for me. I have always loved bringing back old engines from the dead.
The better condition of the two cars is a three speed manual, but the other car(which I will refer to as a parts car, as it is indeed quite rough) has an automatic. I am not yet sure what fate will become of the second car, but it is likely too rough to be worth restoring, so odds are I will part it out. However, my goal for the better of the two cars is to see if I can get it running first, then sort out the brake hydraulics and whatnot to make it safely mobile, then tires, with the hope of eventually putting it on the road.
I have already perused your forum extensively in the last few weeks, and will surely have many questions, parts requests and more info about my cars as I delve into the world of the Kaiser for the first time. I've had more than 50 cars previous to these, primarily pre-smog full size cars from the Big Three, so it will be interesting to dig into something decidedly different and unique for a change.
I'm excited, especially considering there appears to be a thriving enthusiast community for these cars. Wish me luck!
-
Here are a few pictures of the two cars...
The better of the two:
-
And the parts car:
-
Thank you for purchasing these cars. And sharing your purchase story.
-
Windshields and gaskets are available thru the KF club’s manufacturing fund. Tail light lenses appear on eBay frequently and are also available from a couple of club vendors.
Looks like you have a good solid project car. Keep us up to date with your progress!
-
Welcome to the Kaiser-Frazer community. You will find much help and encouragement among us and this forum is just a sampling of what is available in club membership. You can get a roster that can find members near you and publications to help find articles on club and company history, sources for parts and friends and fellowship not available anywhere else. Good luck with your restoration. It will be a beautiful car.
-
The parts car really doesn't look all that bad.
-
It is great to see two cars saved and one targeted for restoration! Good luck.
-
So, a minor update on my journey here.. I've been busier than usual for this time of year, but finally had the opportunity between weather and work to pick up the second Manhattan and bring it home. Digging this one out of the mud and loading it on the trailer was much more of a hassle than the first one, due to the poor condition of the tires and where/how it was parked. It was on the crest of a small mound of dirt, basically high-centered up to the frame in dirt, so it took a good bit of careful lifting and blocking to finally get it up high enough to get some roller wheels on. It was at that point that I discovered something I wasn't expecting: Due to the fact that this car has wheel bolts rather than lug nuts and studs, it also has a centering pin on each hub, and the factory wheels have holes to accommodate this pin. Well, my roller wheels that I brought along were sourced from a '70s Dodge Challenger and had no such holes, so before I could install them I had to drill a hole in each wheel. Thankfully I brought my whole Makita kit with drill bits and a center punch with me! I picked up the roller wheels specifically for this task, so I wasn't worried about drilling holes in them. But as you can see, at the end of the day I got it safely loaded and got it home! Now that I have both cars here, I'm hoping to get some time in the foreseeable future to start digging into them. First thing on the agenda is to have the ancient tires removed from these wheels, get them cleaned up and install some decent rollers for now, so I'll have rollers on both cars. Then I can easily roll them over to my garage to get started working on them. Will hopefully update again soon with progress!
-
So, for some reason when I try to upload picture attachments, it won't let me post them. It seems to upload for a bit, then just goes to a blank page. Guess I'll have to sort that out somehow.
In the meantime, I finally got a chance to get started on one of the Manhattans. I pulled the engine out of the first one, went through a routine where I drained the old oil, refilled with fresh oil and Marvel Mystery oil, pre-oiled it with a pressure bleeder, turned the crank by hand for several revolutions to make sure there were no issues, then finally cranked it with the starter. When I felt all was in order, I applied power to the coil and fired it up using aerosol brake cleaner. She runs! No smoke, good oil pressure - I'm impressed!
Here's a short video of the first startup in nearly 50 years:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xuZhpzvkxh8
-
So as you can see, she's quite a mess.. lots of critters spent lots of years living in, on and around this car, so it's going to take some serious cleanup. That's why I elected to pull the engine/trans out first before getting it running. Didn't really want to work around all the critter mess!
So, as you can see by the firewall picture, the engine had already been out once before. I have no idea what the story is on that. When I eventually tear the engine down for gaskets and seals, I'm hoping I will find out.
Also, the oil that was in the engine was in surprisingly good condition. It smelled old, but did not have the typical varnished old fuel smell that I typically find in engines that have been sitting for decades. It had a noticeable greenish-blue tint to it, and I found no sludge in the filter housing. Also found no filter, which was interesting. There were also numerous things disconnected underhood, like the lower radiator hose and fuel line to the carb. Makes me wonder if maybe this engine was pulled decades ago for a refresh, reinstalled but never finished.
More pictures and info to come!
-
So, the trunk picture above shows the huge rat nest in the trunk. There was a tremendous amount of droppings in the wells on the sides as well. Very disgusting. The interior is no different. It's a shame too, as the interior looks like it was in fine shape when the car was parked all those years ago. This car will take a tremendous amount of cleaning, inside and out. I plan to tear it all down, bagging and tagging everything as I go.
Does anyone have any tips on how I might clean up and save the door panels, without ruining them? Since I don't imagine I will ever be able to find a good set of door panels to replace these, if there's any way to clean them I'd like to try. Same goes for the dash pad. I plan go reupholster the seats, replace the carpet and headliner and all that, but that's relative easy stuff.
First picture here is all the stuff that was in the interior.
-
More pictures
-
By the way, does anyone have any information on what these cars cost when they were new? Maybe even a breakdown of what various options cost, like the automatic transmission in my parts car?
-
Interesting that you mention the greenish blue tint to the oil. When I checked the oil on the 51 Deluxe I bought before test driving it, it also had a greenish blue tint. Makes me wonder if it's something particular to these engines...
Have you joined the club yet? I'm sure our club historian can give you all kinds of info on original costs, prices with options, etc. Pretty sure I saw some of that info in some of the newsletters I've looked through...
Also, be sure to contact Larry Barker in AZ. He has a couple dozen or so of various flavors of these cars, tons of parts...used, rebuilt and NOS. :)
-
Regarding the oil, older paraffin heavy oil will have that tint. Change the oil, run the engine for an hour or so and change it again and you should be good to go. Don't bother with the filter for the first change, it's only a by-pass unit anyway.
The door panels and dash pad are made of a good quality vinyl and can be cleaned using a good, soft detergent like blue Dawn dishwashing liquid. If the paper backer is bad, new can be sourced from sources carrying antique car interior parts.
A new 53 Manhattan with the typical options would set the buyer back around $2400.
This car shows accessory group 32 which cost $113.50 and included bumper bridge caps, wheel covers, exhaust deflector, tent steering wheel, electric wipers, clock, oil bath air cleaner, directional signals, rear seat lighter and tilt type non-glare mirror. A Hydramatic transmission added about $160 to the tab.
-
Here are some specs for your 1953 Kaiser Manhattan.
Projects like this can take a lot of time and money, I hope you are prepared.
When you are ready for wiring, contact Bob Mc Bride @ 772-466-3510. He's been doing wiring looms for our cars at an extremely reasonable price for many years. I talked with him about my Darrin wiring this morning and if he said that if he feels good, he will start making wiring harnesses again. Bob is 90. You send him all the ends of your old loom and he puts them on for you.
-
Someone got really creative in the way they mounted the generator, it is mounted up side down.
-
I appreciate the info and input you guys have provided. You bring up a few good points.
Yes indeed, projects like this definitely take considerable time and money to finish. Thankfully I am no stranger to projects of this scale, being a professional classic car restorer and lifelong enthusiast. The Kaiser aspect is certainly new to me, but the work in general is not.
Phase one of my plan with this car is to get it basically cleaned up, make it mechanically solid and reliable, then drive it for a bit to see what I think of it. Because of its advanced state of filth due to critters, I am going to nearly completely disassemble the car so that I can thoroughly clean it inside and out. The interior will be completely gutted. I will attempt to save the door panels and dash pad, as I'm sure those would be difficult or impossible to replace, but I will be getting rid of the carpet, seat upholstery and headliner. I will strip the seats down to bare frames, then start with having the front seat professionally refoamed and reupholstered.
I will be removing the body from the frame, so that I can throughly pressure wash the frame inside and out, then make new copper-nickel brake and fuel lines that mimic the original. I will check the condition of the rear axle and perform any required repairs and service as needed. Likewise, the brakes will be completely freshened up. I've already ordered new shoes and hardware, wheel and master cylinder rebuild kits, as well as hoses. The suspension looks surprisingly good, including the rear leaf spring bushings as well as front sway bar bushings. If the ball joints check out ok, I will likely leave the suspension alone for now.
The engine and trans will be thoroughly pressure washed as well, then disassembled only as required for the replacement of gaskets and seals, but otherwise left alone. I will surely rebuild the carburetor, as well as give the required attention to the distributor, fuel pump, etc. as required to ensure proper running and reliability.
As far as wiring goes, I am very likely going to use a new harness kit from the likes of Ron Francis or American Autowire, as I have used such kits in the past with much success. I am not as concerned about strict originality as much as I am reliability, ease of installation and service, as well as cost. I have not yet decided on the matters of 6 volt vs. 12 volt, nor alternator vs. generator, but I do know that if I go 12 volt I will need a voltage reducer for the gauges and such, as well as a ballast resistor for the ignition. I used a 12 volt source the other day to run the engine, with a ballast resistor hooked up for the ignition, and it worked well.
At the end of the day, I know that I will likely have more money into the car than I can get back out of it when done, and certainly a lot of time, but this will be a labor of love. I did not want to see this car end up needlessly in a junkyard, which is likely where it was headed considering its condition.. but the body us just so solid and rust free, so much of the trim is straight and nice, and now that I have seen the engine run, I know I'm doing the right thing with this car. My goal is to make it safely drivable, enjoy it over the summer and take it to some car shows (including Hot August Nights in Reno, which I am not far from), then depending on how much I like the car, probably get more serious about doing some paint and interior work over next winter. I am already enjoying the process with this car, as I most often do with each new project I take on. I do look forward to talking to a lot of folks out there who will surely ask me what it is, having never seen one before!
-
Great pics and description! The car looks very rust-free even after sitting outside for so many years and being inhabited by all those critters.
-
Great pics and description! The car looks very rust-free even after sitting outside for so many years and being inhabited by all those critters.
Indeed, it is remarkably rust free all throughout! That's one of the reasons I just couldn't pass it up. Mostly straight and solid with all intact trim, reasonably straight bumpers, etc.. The mechanical aspects don't phase me, but I don't like getting into serious rust repair, nor do I want to spend years tracking down impossible to find parts and trim. I hemmed and hawed about it for a couple days before buying it, but what made the decision for me was jacking it up and finding no rust in the floors or rockers or anything underneath, and the crank turned easily by hand. Figured it'd be worth the chance!
-
A minor update here.. I found a potential reason why this car was parked all those years ago.. The clutch was completely oil soaked and worn down to rivets on the flywheel side. The flywheel and pressure plate were severely hot spotted, and the flywheel has noticeable grooves in it from the rivets. This thing would have slipped like crazy, and if it worked at all it would have chattered like crazy as well. So I bet that's why they parked it.
I have not bee able to source a new clutch and pressure plate thus far, but a shop a couple hours away in Sacramento can reline my clutch disc as well as resurface and rebuild my pressure plate, all for about $160 out the door, so I'm very likely going to go that route. Then I just have to hope the flywheel has enough meat left to be safely machined.
The T86E transmission itself appears to be in fine shape. After pressure washing, I removed the top plate and inspected inside. All gears and synchros appear to be in good shape, no excessive wear. It operates smoothly by hand in all gears, freewheels as expected with overdrive on, everything works as expected with overdrive on or off, and the solenoid, governor and switch all seem to work as they should. I'm going to reseal it, renew the clutch and I will hopefully be all good there!
-
The transmission:
-
New members to the KFOCI (not the Forum) better known as the Kaiser-Frazer Owners Club International get a New Member Packet that should include a CD called KFOCI HANDBOOK. If you look at the Table of Contents you will find a section on 1953 model year Kaiser-Frazer products. There is a listing for the 1953 Kaiser Manhattan that has information on the car including paint & upholstery items and both dealer and retail pricing for cars and equipment (among other things). You can join on the club website or you can contact the Club Secretary, Membership Manager or me (I'm the club historian) for more information. The names and other information can be found on the club website.
-
New members to the KFOCI (not the Forum) better known as the Kaiser-Frazer Owners Club International get a New Member Packet that should include a CD called KFOCI HANDBOOK. If you look at the Table of Contents you will find a section on 1953 model year Kaiser-Frazer products. There is a listing for the 1953 Kaiser Manhattan that has information on the car including paint & upholstery items and both dealer and retail pricing for cars and equipment (among other things). You can join on the club website or you can contact the Club Secretary, Membership Manager or me (I'm the club historian) for more information. The names and other information can be found on the club website.
Jack, I have to tell you that the history of these cars has really intrigued me. Prior to finding our Kaiser, I knew of the existence of Kaiser-Fazer, but nothing else about them. The more I dig into the history, the more curious (and voracious for info) I become. Recently got a copy of the Kaiser-Frazer Photo Archive (Foster & Tilden) and in the first 20 pages learned so much I didn't already know from my online searches...
Thanks for all you do to keep this history alive! I plan to buy many more of the books on this history (including yours) in the coming months. :)
-
We have some spare clutch parts, I have sent a PM.
-
I have not bee able to source a new clutch and pressure plate thus far...
Some clutch parts available here Forgotten:
Pressure Plate: http://kfparts.com/store/product/208630/
Friction Disc: http://kfparts.com/store/product/213068/
-
I have not bee able to source a new clutch and pressure plate thus far...
Some clutch parts available here Forgotten:
Pressure Plate: http://kfparts.com/store/product/208630/
Friction Disc: http://kfparts.com/store/product/213068/
Thanks.. I saw those in my search. I can't really justify spending more than double to get a relined clutch disc and rebuilt pressure plate through them when I can have it done (somewhat) locally and likely get it back much faster to boot, still using USA made friction material and American labor. Unless there was a significant difference in quality, in which case I would always choose the higher quality part, but I don't suspect there is any appreciable difference between them.
-
Thanks.. I saw those in my search. I can't really justify spending more than double to get a relined clutch disc and rebuilt pressure plate through them when I can have it done (somewhat) locally and likely get it back much faster to boot, still using USA made friction material and American labor. Unless there was a significant difference in quality, in which case I would always choose the higher quality part, but I don't suspect there is any appreciable difference between them.
Plus.......you know that the parts you removed from the car will fit back correctly. :)
-
Glad to see people like you are still saving these great automobiles ! My dad started driving a Frazier in 1951 and I started my driving my 1951 Kaiser Deluxe in 1960.
-
Glad to see people like you are still saving these great automobiles ! My dad started driving a Frazier in 1951 and I started my driving my 1951 Kaiser Deluxe in 1960.
Thanks! It deserves to be saved. It's just way too solid a body to let it go to waste. I have not found one spec of cancerous rust on it yet, even in the wheel wells, rockers, quarters or anywhere, which is REALLY surprising considering its age and how it sat on dirt for 50+ years. It survived all this time, it has earned the right to keep on living!
-
Also, a couple folks have reached out to me to offer clutch discs and related parts, and I've been having an interesting conversation with one fellow about some potential chattering issues with a relined clutch disc vs. an NOS disc. Has anyone else had any problems with using a relined disc vs an NOS or new disc? Needless to say, I only want to do this job once. Anyone have any input on this subject?
-
Also, a couple folks have reached out to me to offer clutch discs and related parts, and I've been having an interesting conversation with one fellow about some potential chattering issues with a relined clutch disc vs. an NOS disc. Has anyone else had any problems with using a relined disc vs an NOS or new disc? Needless to say, I only want to do this job once. Anyone have any input on this subject?
I would highly recommend giving Larry Barker a call to talk it over. He knows these cars well and may have the NOS parts you need, if you do need to go that route.
480-843-8110