Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Kaiser Forum => Topic started by: kndllmtt on August 16, 2010, 12:20:17 AM
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Hello me again...
Let me explain a few things first, I have a 51 Deluxe that I am trying to get on the road, all I am starting with is a bare shell with only a few of the big interior pieces left (no trim, no nothing except seat frames and steering column). All my goal is to just get it running and driving with just the bare necessities to make it street legal (kinda like an old street rod). But in the mean time I have a few questions...
1. I need a radiator, It doesn't need to be an exact fit because I am willing to work with a more common size if it means I save a few bucks.
2. Comparatively how stiff are these cars? I'm just worried because I have a running 455 out of a 69 Olds and am considering just using that, but I don't want to twist the frame into a pretzel if I go to pass someone...
3. How about the rear end? It has to do more or less with the same reasons above.
Any comments would be gratefully appreciated.
-Matt
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Well, I'm not sure, but the new style bodies (51-55) were originally going to have an Oldsmobile 303 V8 around 52 or 53 (to be renamed the Rapier 304 by Kaiser) until such time as the Kaiser V8 under development was ready, similar to what AMC Nash/Hudson did by sourcing Packard engines. Likely they used the contemporary Olds rear end so start there, and take lots of measurements. If a contemporary rear end fits with X mods in a Kaiser and an Olds, then what would you have to change to get a modern rear end in an old Olds? Kaiser already used GM Hydramatics. It all never happened for several reasons, but the cars were designed to use an old-style V8 so a later Olds and an automatic should fit without too many problems. Just take lots of measurements before cutting and save the parts for someone else. The "V" emblem was in anticipation of that. GM put the kibosh on that once they saw Kaiser test mules running around on the Detroit parkways near their offices with Olds V8 and Hydramatic and running much faster and handling and stopping better than Oldsmobiles with the identical power train. The 2nd series cars have excellent brakes (even if drums and not-power), are very aerodynamic, and well balanced as is compared to a lot of contemporary cars, so the question likely is whether you adapt the mounts to fit, or change out. Kaisers were quite 'modern' cars in 1951, and you can confirm that by sitting in a 51 Ford, Chev, Dodge, Rambler, and compare controls, and especially sightlines with a Kaiser. The difference is amazing. Actually, power brakes and power steering were very rare options on Kaisers, because they didn't really need them. Some 54-55 Supercharged cars had power steering, but only a handful of special ordered cars had power brakes. Several Popular Science and Mechanics Illustrated type road tests had them quite competitive even with modern cars--I remember one figure of 160 feet 60 to 0, under full control, which pointedly exceeds stats of several power disc brake with radials modern cars. Since I have 4 Studes as well as a Kaiser, I'd be the first to tell you that if it was a 50-54 Studebaker you had, SERIOUS attention to braking systems would have to be done, such as the upgrade to 60s size Stude finned drum and discs, or the almost drop in Turner disc brakes conversion using Mustang parts on the the original setup, or a sub frame with something else modern. There have been quite a few conversions done so wait for some more feedback. A thing to keep in mind is whether you want to get involved in a major swapping project, and lose zeal along the way. King pins are old tech, but they are solid and work well. If you have concerns (king pins? what r they??) just remember that any big truck place can rebuild them, and they will never break. If you get a chance, get a ride in a Kaiser before you start your project, just to see how well they ride and handle in stock form. Just my $0.02, spend accordingly.
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1. Radiator - Find one for a 55-57 Chevy. The core & tanks are the same although the mounting ears are not.
2. Although a Kaiser has a relatively light frame (be careful where you jack up on it), a SB V8 works well. You don't need a lot of hp and you don't need the torque that a 455 Olds has. The lighter the engine, the less you will need power steering.
3. The rear end is quite adequate - it is a Dana 44. This basic model of rear end was used in a lot of cars and not just independents like AMC and Studebaker. 67-72 1/2T GMC & Chevy Trucks with leaf springs used them and the 44 was a performance option for Camaros in the 1960s. The only draw back is the ratio and that can be fixed with a Hydramatic rearend or the spool, ring & pinion from another Dana 44.
If you actually want to finish this project, make it easy on yourself and use a 305 Chevy with a 200R4 transmission. Then find yourself a Hydravac unit for power brakes.
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Coincidentally I have all ready picked up a 200r4 for this project and my neighbor has a new radiator out of his 57 chevy waggon that he is trying to sell so, this has been great to hear from. I have also considered pulling the 350 out of my 85 c20 Suburban and using it instead, and putting the 455 with t400 in it, but differnt story...
Queston though, has anyone had any luck with any of the disc brake kits avalible? My brakes are shot from one end to the other (2 drums too thin to turn, missing most of the springs, and 4 brake cylinders with no hope of rebuilding). So I wondering if it might be cheaper to replace it all and update it at the same time, but only if they are worth the money.
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Why not put a Olds 455 in your Suburban? Couldn't lessen the mpg or ruin the resell value since those Surburbans don't have much of either. I drove a 73 C10 with a 79 Pontiac 301/TH350 around the farm for several years. I also have an 81 C10 with an Olds 307/200R4. It is just a matter of locating the holes that GM already provided.
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I was really considering doing the swap with the Suburban but I meet a man who just had to have it, so it is no longer a valid option. The extra money is nice though.
I don't know though 490+ ft-lb in a 3,000 lb car does sound like a lot of fun though. ;D
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kndllmtt: For a number of model years, Buicks with 401 Nailhead V8s (both 2bbl & 4 bbl) had aircleaner stickers that said Fireball 455. - meaning 455 ft/lb torque, not the cubic inches. Those Buicks were real porkers (i.e. heavy) so the torque was probably more important as a measure of performance than hp. It may be a hunt to find a find a rear end with a ratio so low to take advantage of a V8 with such high torque rating.
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My mistake: 445 instead of 455 for the 401 c.i. V8. 425 c.i. Rivieras had 465 on the air cleaner as I recall.
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I assume 465 meaning 465ft/lb.
Now when you say low geared low end do you mean low as in ratio or numerically?
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Yes, there is always confusion about the use of terms low ratio - meaning low speed and high numeric ratio and high ratio meaning higher top speed and a ratio closer to 1:1. As soon as I made that post I realized I should have been clear and said LOW NUMERICALLY.
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Now I was thinking that with all the torque available I would be able to get away from the higher numerical gears and run with something a little more highway friendly. I was thinking about running with a 3.42 because that should put me at 75 mph @ 2150 rpm, right on top of the torque curve. Compared to the approx. stock 4.11 which would put me at 2550 rpm @ 75 mph.
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If you are still on the Olds 455 thought train, 3.42 is still wrong. The car that the 455 came in probably had a 2.92 ratio or even lower and it weighed at least 900 lbs more than a Kaiser. A "counter example": the std rear end ratio in Chevy Vegas was 2.92 (other H-body cars had as low as 2.53!) with 13 inch wheels. The GT option came with a 3.33 ratio and gave better performance and in non-interstate driving better mpg because what little torque the Vega 4 came at higher rpms.
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Close 3.08.
This car will spend most of its life cruising between 65-75 mph and the 3.42 will put the motor spinning right on or just below its torque peak at those speeds, which based on my understanding will also produce the most mpg.
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Hey new question.
On a stock Kaiser, where would the fuse block be located?
How about the wires that run to the back of the car (for brake lights and such)? I know that some older cars (i.e.. 1980's) ran them on the frame rail, but most modern cars have them located along the door sills.
Comments are appreciated.
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Ah, the question of the "Fuse block" has come up again. The answer is, there is no fuse block. The cars made back in the day where heaters, radios and electric overdrive were add-ons did not have or require centralized fuse blocks. Each individual component has its own inline fuse. To find the fuse for a particular component, find the wire from it and trace it to find the fuse. The radio has two of them, one for the main power and one for the dial light. The heater blower has one located in the line which runs from it to the ignition switch, the overdrive has one located on the relay mounted on the firewall. There is a main fuse in line with the headlight switch as well.
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kndllmtt: When cars started to have fuse blocks the fixture was located at the back of the light switch (4 fuses or less) and later when more fuses were used the fuse block became the interior part of the 'pass through' connection on the firewall. KF cars have a 30 amp circuit breaker at the back of the light switch that controls all the standard lights. If you need to rewire a KF, you are going to rip out the headliner.
Wiring to the rear of the car goes up the drivers side windshield post, over the doors and then into the trunk. This is fabric insulated wire so the individual wires are both larger because of the larger gauge used with 6V systems and the type of insulation.
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...and generally speaking if you don't have a centralized block, you can have more dependable wiring car-wide, with easily traceable single faults. I had two--no, FOUR cars which became a nightmare due to excess humidity rotting central junction blocks at contacts and INSIDE the wires. Sometimes intermittently, and not easily found. None of those were Kaisers, Frazers, Studebakers etc. GM, Ford, Plymouth and Peugeot were their names.
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Okay, so that raises the question "Where have other people put a fuse block?" I don't have much choice in the wiring of this car as I have no trace of wiring in this car. I don't even have any pigtails to connect any original lights. For me least, the fuse block is part of the "run with what you know" category.
I thought about a couple places, none of them sound spectacular but here it goes:
1. Mounting it to the firewall, under the hood, easy to mount, easy to access, but ugly.
2. The firewall again, but under the dash. Nice and hidden, but I don't know how easy to mount or access it will be due to the small size of the dash.
3. In the trunk, easy to access, easy to mount, and hidden, but then I have to deal with most of the wiring that needs to run to the front of the car.
Any thoughts? ???
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I think he got his computer and Kaiser forums mixed. :-\
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Actually, I think that was a 'spam' posting. If there is a link to something commercial-like or not appropriate on a newbie posting, then I report it to the moderator.
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Hey, I started running wire the other day and I realized that the pig tails they gave me in the kit look quite a bit like GM pigtails. Can anyone tell me if they are the same?
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Question about the radiator. Size (measurements), tank locations, and inlet/ outlet locations.
Thanks for any response.
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If it helps any I just finished re-wiring my 51 deluxe and it wasn't a walk in the park. I picked up Painless' generic 12 circuit kit and it was put together nicely and everything is labeled. I put my fuse block under the dash where the original junction block was, so no new holes, you can see one carriage bolt in the engine bay though. I picked up the light pigtails at my local parts stores, Autozone, NAPA and Carquest all had them, 1158 bulbs for the front lights are hard to come by though, Carquest was able to order them in. Mine is a convertible now so all of the rear wires are ran under the carpet on the driver's side. Also I pulled the vent tube out and put all of the wires under it so the engine area looks really clean, other than all of the dust of course.
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How did you do the connections to the instruments? And are you using the 12 volt set up?
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Yes please enlighten us. :o
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Everything is 12 volt now except the wipers, blower, OD solenoid and clock, they are all ran through a voltage regulator. As for the gauges I have a switched power lead coming into the breaker or regulator on the back and to each gauge after that, then the gauges to their respective sending units. Everything works but oil pressure, I need to look into that a little more.
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Keep posting your progress. Check the sending unit, with power or by grounding it.