Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kaiserfrazerlibrary on February 06, 2011, 10:21:42 AM
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Hi,
Here are a few suggestions about activities that I fell would be worthwile parts of National Conventions or Midwest Division meets (having been to what was considered a normal Eastern Division meet it doesn't work there):
1. A primer session for new members covering good things to know about their projects and "kits" they should put together along with manuals and related items to help them through their activities.
2. An information session at National Conventions covering duties and expectations for club officers and those interested in being a club officer so people know in advance what to expect in a job slot.
Anything else anyone want's to see added?
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Jack:
I understand your intentions but I think rather than a formal construction, we should work on how our members behave. For instance:
Members should
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Jack:
I understand your intentions but I think rather than a formal construction, we should work on how our members behave. For instance:
At a Meet Members should look for unfamilar people who may be new members and be ready to greet them. I know a number of members don't particularly talk or associate with anyone they don't already know and hang around with anyway. You need to expand your horizons. I have been a member of Clubs where this is worse but it is not good to have it occur at all! Talk to a new member! I remember at the Matamoras National I talked to a fellow with a 53 Manhattan and advised him to use small caps - if he was going to drive the car - instead of full coverage wheel covers because he had lost 2 wheel covers on driving to the hotel. I even pointed out a vendor I thought had what he needed.
When the Club Constitution was revised, provisions were made for a Nominating Commitee. This was to avoid the silence and members looking at their feet when nominations for Officers were called at the National. The theory was that at least 1 candidate would be supplied for each position. It may be the same officer running for reelection or it could be an officer retiring or looking to move up and thus suggesting his replacement. But the point was, a name would be supplied and that person would have some some knowledge of the duties and responsibilities of the post.
So to sum up it up, we need to work on getting our members to talk to new people and we need to talk to the people we already know in the Club about the mechanics of the Club instead just the cars.
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I was very gratified last summer at the National in Kerrville that Larry Barker, and several others--sorry I forgot names!--came up to me and talked to me in the few hours I was able to attend. My family and I really enjoyed it and we will try to make it to others. So yes, having people come up and talk to you does make a difference.
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Without new members, there won't be a club for very long. People join the club because they are interested, but if no one talks to them or makes them feel welcome, they won't be there for long. Some of us have vehicles that will never win awards, but that's no reason not to talk to me. (not saying that happened to me). I look forward to meeting people and seeing their vehicles and hope no one ever ignores me because I am new or my vehicle is not perfect.
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Enjoying the cars and displays are some of the reasons that we go to National Meets but talking to new and old members are what really makes the meets fun and I look forward to seeing them again at future meets. Going to a National Meet takes lots of preparation and time and money for all of us. I try to talk to everyone there if I can even if it is just in a waiting line. The people really make the meets and we are all there for the same reasons! We've all made life long friends at the meets.
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Whenever I go to a National, I like to spend my time just hanging around the cars, the vendors and the parking lot. Kicking tires and swapping lies is what I like and I get to meet new people and chat with old friends. As long as those are there for members to partake in, I'm happy.
Let's see, we'll need some sort of socializing to acquaint and re-acquaint ourselves at the beginning - the ice cream social! We'll need a driving tour to some sort of interesting museum, car collection, manufacturer, boatyard, trainyard, anything. We'll also need something for the ladies to do (Ladies Luncheon), a general business meeting of the assembled multitudes and at least one technical seminar about something to do with fixin' or restorin' our cars. In addition, there's the Darrin Breakfast and we used to have the Chat Room meeting (do we still have that?). A car show would be nice, too. And a banquet with an interesting guest speaker for our last nite together. Awards presentation. Hmmm, looks like our conventions are perfect, no real need to change, eh?
We have a lot of stuff already crammed into our week that there's not a lot of room to add. But that's not the real point of this discussion. What to improve our National with?
Now that our club is over half a century old, perhaps we should have some sort of history class or a memorabilia presentation from club events of the past. Brian Choate brought a board with as many National Meet dash plaques as he could find to the Matamoras National. Maybe someone could bring old Quarterlies and other stuff for the newer members to learn from and old members to reminisce.
If I can think of anything else, I'll let you know. Just wish I could get to every National.
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Should the Constitution of the KFOCI be revised? I believe we are now one of the few old car clubs in this country that requires National Conventions to be rotated each year around the country. This provision was put in at a time when gas was under 30 cents a gallon and Motel 6 stood for rooms at $6.00/night. Given the current numbers, the current cost of going cross-country is a bit pricey. Why not let overall distance from all directions be a consideration rather than Midwest, Eastern or Western Division locations.
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So we should have the National each year in Kansas City or Omaha? Those are centrally located, but I can't say they are very exciting locales. With out that provision in the KF Consitution, I know we would not have had meets in Prescott & Flagstaff. It puts pressure on the Regional Director (especially the Western Director) to develop interest in his area to put on a National so his members have an opportunity to drive to a National and hopefully bring their car.
The Studebaker Drivers Club started out with the provision that their National would be in South Bend every other year and then it slipped to every 3rd year and finally they were forced to ignored it. Basically they were asking the same people to put on a big party every other year. Those members got burned out, the people of South Bend got slightly hostile (Chamber of Commerce, Tourist Bureau liked the potential money spent though) and the SDC members got tired of the same place so often, especially a declining place like South Bend.
It may be that we have to remove that provision in the KF Constitution, but I think it will be due to aging membership being unable to organize a National rather than gas prices.
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re last post...
Aging membership and gas prices are intimately related and possibly the issue...FIXED (if not falling) INCOME, with new hidden taxes on the horizon.
If one doesn't think that $3/gal is high enough to prevent travel, what about the possibility of $4+ this summer?
I believe that travel distance/cost is an issue.
I'm 65 and this will probably be my last time driving to the West Coast.
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The intent in my suggestion is to rotate the National in the mid-section only. Over 50% of our plunging membership still live in the Midwest Division area (we've lost close to 400 members in the last 2 years...this is a NET loss after adding in all the new members we took on during that time) and there are plenty of cities to check out. I do not say that each year should be in the geographic middle of the country. If we took Alaska and Hawaii into account (along with Guam, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, etc) no telling where the middle of the United States would be!
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Good point, KaiserFrazerlibrary, about the center of the country. I am sorry to hear we have lost 400 members. How can we encourage higher membership? I am probably one of the younger ones at 35. I joined when I bought my first Kaiser when I was around 18, but I eventually lost interest in that restoration project (the only part of the "restoration" I actually accomplished was to tear it down!). It wasn't until about 2 or 3 years ago that the Kaiser bug bit again and I bought another Kaiser and renewed my membership. It's a tough thing to attract new members, especially younger members. The reason I really got into the club was because I was in to old cars as a teenager, and happened to be neighbors to Sterling Weber in Logan, Utah, who had a 54 Manhattan, 50 frazer, 49 Traveler or Vagabond--I can't remember which, but it was LOW mileage, like 20,000, and a 48 Frazer--I think Manhattan, but can't remember--for which he had 2 NOS seats in the correct color for his car still in the factory boxes. I remember at that point he had the front clip off of the Frazer and had the rebuilt and repainted engine back in, and was doing other body work. Sterling kind of took me under his wing, lent me Last Onslaught, talked KF to me, and got me really interested. Sterling passed away recently and I'm not sure where all of his cars went, but Larry Barker knew where a few of them had gone when I talked to him in Texas last summer.
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With gasoline approaching $4 a gallon and the median age of our club's membership (and that of many others) rising, the traditional midsummer meet moving around the country may no longer be as viable as it once was. The AACA, aside from the grand national meets, recognized this long ago and now holds winter meets in warm weather locations. This brings the snowbirds in as many either have already flown south for the winter, or use the meet as an excuse to get out of the snowy weather. Sure, that means fewer cars to see but heck, it's the people who make up a club anyway, right?!
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The Early Ford V-8 Club has over 10.000 members and has the same problems as we do but their chapters hold three meets a year in Eastern, Central, and Western locations each year making it easier for members anywhere to attend meets. We actually have local meets in many areas of the country now and most are well attended. I doubt that Eastern and Western members would want to travel to the Midwest every year. Most of us would love to attend all of the meets and a few lucky ones do but having various locations across the country seems the best way to afford everyone the opportunity to attend meets at least every few years. One thing that does need to change is our rule that only allow meet attendees the opportunity to vote on important new rule changes that affect all members and the election of officers. The meets are getting expensive and driving our cars across the country is getting more perilous every year but the fun of the meets makes it all worth while.
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After reading this thread, I'm curious, what is the size of the KFOCI current membership? Also, I'd love to know the average current age of a KFOCI member. I'm 34 and I have yet to run into a member younger than me. There are not many car people my generation who even know about KF cars. I think I am also unique in that I developed the KF interest on my own. I am not the son of a KFOCI member, like most of the other young (in their 40s and 50s) members. My old man is a '55 Chevy guy. The National is very hard to attend for a young guy with two small kids unless it is in my backyard. Maybe someday I can start hitting every one of them.....
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Hi KWZ - In Oct 09 I ran a little survey of the members in the PNW that subscribe to the Traveler(our little newsletter). This link will provide you with the survey results and a feel of our demographics. There are some as young as you but normally ... not so young. http://circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/default.html (http://circlekf.com/pnwkfoci/default.html)
This was about half of our PNW membership responding.
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Yikes, I wonder if those demographics hold true for the entire club. I would really like to see some younger interest in KF cars. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy spending time with any KF person, whether they are 30 or 90, but I worry it might just be me and maybe two other guys by the time I'm 60.
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Not only young, but with impeccable car taste too! In my defence--I'm 57--I like to think I have impeccable taste too, but just not the pocketbook to afford a 51 convertible and a 49/50 Virginian ;D
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Not only young, but with impeccable car taste too! In my defence--I'm 57--I like to think I have impeccable taste too, but just not the pocketbook to afford a 51 convertible and a 49/50 Virginian ;D
Thanks! One at a time is how I'm doing it. I aquired the '51 convertible 10 years ago and spent over six years restoring it. I have been looking for a Virginian forever. I had to take an emergency (does it qualify as an emergency?) loan to get the Virginian. I keep telling the wife it is an appreciating asset. I don't think she cares. ::)
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KWZ, it looks like you got me beat by a year (35), so there are some other younger guys here, and I also developed the KF interest on my own, well, with some help from my KFOC member neighbor. Yeah, we need to generate interest in younger people, but that does seem tough. I don't have any good answers for you.
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Well, I turned 50 last summer and I've been active in this hobby for the last 10 years and whenever I meet someone in the hobby invariably their first reaction is "Wow, you're so young." I hear that a lot when I speak with people on the phone and the topic comes up. Or when I tell them to call me in the evening because I work during the day I often hear "Oh you're still working?" It goes with the territory. It's good to know there are some younger folks out there who enjoy these cars. I try to give everyone in the hobby as much encouragement as I can. The one thing that will always be true of the hobby is that we have some unique and interesting cars. When you take one to a local cruise night or rally you can usually rest assured you'll have the only one there and people will stop and ask you about it. That's always fun.
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Over the years, I have found that a lot of younger people (under 37 or so) stop in their tracks when they see K-F products, especially 1951-53 Kaisers, unless they are deeply into hot rods or customs. The fact that a number of members do NOT go to general car shows with their K-F products limits exposure.
Remember that in a way, we are all Kaiser-Frazer dealers these days. When people ask about the cars, we need to tell them a good and truthful story about availability of parts, prices, etc to show them that the cars are affordable (at least compared to many other cars of the period) and parts can be found (with some exceptions, of course). When you do go to general car shows with your K-F product, take along a couple past issues of the Monthly Bulletin to show interested people prices and availabilities. People who are interested in the cars and possibly interested in ownership need to see that there are others in an organized group that could act as a support net if needed.
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KWZ, it looks like you got me beat by a year (35), so there are some other younger guys here, and I also developed the KF interest on my own, well, with some help from my KFOC member neighbor. Yeah, we need to generate interest in younger people, but that does seem tough. I don't have any good answers for you.
Well then, at least there are two of us! My interest in KF cars started when my parents got me the Old Cars Weekly compendium for Christmas, 1982 (I was six, loved cars, and could read). There was an eight page spread on KF and I became addicted. About six months later, I met a neighbor- club member Gary Micanek, who owns 20 KF cars, and it was all over. I agree that we are ambassadors of the hobby, and need to attend all-make shows with our cars.
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I agree that we are ambassadors of the hobby, and need to attend all-make shows with our cars.
I too agree. I really regret that I had to miss Iola in 2009. I had a room booked and trip planned, car ready to go but had to cancel due to a death in the family. I haven't made it to a KFOC event in almost 5 years and I don't foresee getting to one this summer with 3 weddings coming up and getting two daughters home and back to college my summer is full. I may try to duck into the Omaha meet in May but not officially attend. I have a lot of family in Omaha and may be there for a visit that weekend. If I can slip away for a hour or so, I'll try to stop in and see the meet.
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Very important that we get more members into the club. I've always thought of myself as one of the younger members in the club, but after 32 years of membership and at the age of 57, I guess I'm deluding myself.
Jim Betts, could we get a survey on-line or, better yet, thru the monthly newsletter that has been tailored for the international membership? It would be good to have a handle on the clubs demographics.
The Studebaker Club has mounted an advertising campaign to gain members: "We Started Cool" and other color ads in various hobby publications like Hemmings Classic Cars, etc. Maybe we should consider this.
Gordie, we DO need to update the constitution or by-laws to change the voting to a mail-in vote like every other old car club does. Voting by the members on-hand at the business meeting tends to focus the results on the choices of the "locals" for the most part. Ballots should be distributed thru the monthly newsbulletin.
Has anyone sent these ideas in to Mike Knittle for inclusion in the next business meeting?
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what is the size of the KFOCI current membership?
As of today's date, and according to my label list, there are 1,094 active/full members - this does NOT include associate members. 1044 live in the US, 27 in Canada, and 23 in other foreign countries.
FYI: when I started as the Bulletin editor, 1500+ copies of the Bulletin were mailed each month; 1022 copies of the April 2011 issue will be mailed. 72 members receive their Bulletin by email only.
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Wow! We are losing members. If this survey gets done it would be interesting to know how many KFW vehicles each member has. I have about 35 vehicles that are not KF related and I'll bet that many members have cars that are not Kaisers and Frazers.
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Correct me if I am wrong Barbara but your first issue of the Monthly Bulletin was December 2005! Scary statistic!!
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The membership numbers are bad news. That's a huge drop from back when I was doing the Quarterly. I wonder how the numbers are for other clubs and if our numbers are due to some problems that could be corrected?
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Yes, membership numbers in most every club are down. The economy is the single biggest culprit...folks are tightenening the belt anywhere they can. We, however, have seen a slightly higher loss than the others due to problems that have been addressed by a dedicated team of folks who've worked hard at solving them.
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... have seen a slightly higher loss than the others due to problems that have been addressed by a dedicated team of folks who've worked hard at solving them.
Jim I would be interested in knowing the problems and how they are being addressed. You can respond to my email if this is something that does not need to be posted here.
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It would be interesting to fill in the membership column for each year.
I thought increased membership fees may have force folks to make choices but only one increase has occurred in recent history.
Death, decisions, laws, age of membership??
It would be very interesting to survey lost members as to why they dropped out.
Without that information how can we turn it around??
Date Annual Membership Lifetime Membership Members
Dec-97 $25.00 $250.00
Dec-98 $25.00 $250.00
Dec-99 $25.00 $250.00
Dec-00 $25.00 $250.00
Dec-01 $30.00 $500.00
Dec-02 $30.00 $500.00
Dec-03 $30.00 $500.00
Dec-04 $30.00 $500.00
Dec-05 $30.00 $500.00 1500
Dec-06 $30.00 $500.00
Dec-07 $35.00 $500.00
Dec-08 $35.00 $500.00
Dec-09 $35.00 $500.00
Dec-10 $35.00 $500.00 1094
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The membership numbers are bad news. That's a huge drop from back when I was doing the Quarterly. I wonder how the numbers are for other clubs and if our numbers are due to some problems that could be corrected?
I am a Buick Club of America member and this issue has been beat to death recently. Our dues are $50 per year. I don't see declining membership as a huge issue. This is a, uhm, maturing hobby. Why do we care how many members are in a club that has a finite years-span of production?
There are a lot of clubs for old car makes or specific models that are smaller then KFOCI. I just joined 2 months ago and don't own a KF (yet). ALL clubs have older members dropping out due to age and death. Most clubs are in decline.
I can think of only one old car club that has folded recently and that was The Milestone Car Society, the post war version of CCCA. So not even make specific and it lacked an identity.
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The grim reality, regardless of what car clubs you belong to is that it costs money to keep the club going. The cost of printing and mailing the monthly newsletter along with the typesetting, editing, printing and mailing costs of the Quarterly issues have to be covered somehow. Too many of KFOCI's members are life members and for the last few years, CD interest income means the club is loosing bushels of money on each one of them. Efforts to put at least a temporary end to taking on new Life Members (but leave those in place as of a given date as they are) have failed. Either people want to "set up a committee" to study the matter (and it never gets set up or studied) or have no concept of the costs involved.
For any club, declining membership will bring them to the point where they can no longer afford to operate. This is a reality, regardless of demographics, etc. "Matured" clubs are fine, but when the members can no longer afford the luxury of old car ownership or die off and the cars go overseas (especially the case with Darrins it seems, ask Mr. Hyman) or just "disappear".
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and the cars go overseas (especially the case with Darrins it seems, ask Mr. Hyman) or just "disappear".
Hah! Sadly true. I think those of us still around in 20 years will have a radically different club on our hands. It may get to a point where we merge with other clubs devoted to independent makes and create an orphan organization of some sort.
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Yes. We just don't know what the landscape will be like 10 to 20 years from now. I think we should just enjoy what we have now. I was against $50 annual dues for the BCA but we have a good treasurer that was forward thinking and now the club is solvent, has a great monthly publication and is moving forward. Membership has stabilized I think. I am so tired of the mantra that we need to get the "young people" into the hobby.
It's not going to happen. Not in huge numbers. KF will be hurt by the limited appeal of the marque. They are still making Chevys, Fords, Buicks etc. Would it be so bad to have a Postwar Independents club?
I know the Packard postwar crowd has been looked down upon by their CCCA faction. Just like back in the mid fifties though, maybe clubs would act like the manufacturers and resist joining until it is too late.
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Here in Atlanta, we had an Orphan car meet that ran for 16 years. At our Orphan meets, there was talk of what would eventually happen to each of the clubs as older members died off and less and less people were actually interested in our particular orphan. There was always talk of an all-encompassing Orphan Car Club and everyone seems to think that someone else will form it and it never got done. I think there is a general apathy out there - "as long as my publications keep coming and I can go to a meet once in a while to see similar cars, I'll send in my dues," seems to be that mantra. As with any club, there is a hard core group of people who keep it together and running and that is the strength of the club and that will determine it's survival.
The Willys Club disappeared maybe 10 years ago but not by loss of membership - there were plenty of members, but no one interested in running the club. The man in charge of the club absconded with the funds and no one seemed to care enough to put the club back together.
So do we merge for survival like the independents did when they were hurting? Will the Hudson Club join with the Nash Club to form the AMC Club? Wait - there's already several AMC Clubs.
Sorry, I'm rambling and not making a point. Who wants to step up and begin talks with the orphan clubs that are shrinking about banding together for survival? Which clubs are hurting? Or maybe, perhaps, each club should become affiliated with AACA but still keep their semi-independence.
Me, I've become lazy and complacent and will join if someone else puts it together, but I just don't want to do the work any more. I will help if asked, though.
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The KFOCI recognizes the Willys built vehicles manufactured after the purchase of Willys by Kaiser Motors in 1953. By default, we've also taken in the Willys vehicles built after WWII...but seem to have favored the cars, trucks and wagons but not the CJs and Forward Controls. Is it time to think about taking in all Willys built vehicles? I know that there's a club for the earlier prewar stuff, the Willys Overland Knight Registry, but what about those cars built in the later 30s and early 40s? It might be time to give it serious thought.
Also, there's the Graham built vehicles. Early '47 Frazers were Graham Paige built...I think we've missed some opportunities in not partnering with the Graham Club. I've attended a few of their meets and more than one of their members own a Kaiser built vehicle. I would think that a joint meet would open a lot of eyes.
Just my two cents worth.
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Joe
That's a tough one. The interesting aspect of KF is that it is a defined period and purpose. Ford and Chevy especially have no overriding club because of the breadth of product over the years. I can see an association with Graham because KF (Frazer) operated in a Graham factory. But I don't thnk that would add serious numbers to the club, but it's a simple matter to extend membership.
As for the Orphans, just like in the 50's nobody wants to be perceived as the one that joined another. I don't know KF membership trends. I guess it's going down. I just joined. I will be a member until the end. (My life or the clubs)
Isn't it better to have 600 fanatical members then 1600 with 1000 so so members? The AACA is for everybody, and has a terrific publication I have heard and great meets and heritage. But I joined KFOCI because I want a more intimate in depth experience with KF and will eventually purchase 2-3 KF cars and attend meets.
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Personally I am very happy I joined. Wonderful format. I am not a fan of a nice magazine every month, as you get with the Buick Club. Most members want the monthly color magazine but I get a lot of magazines and am more interested in the newsletter and then quaterly magazine of the KFOCI. Plus hopefully I can attend a couple regional meets.
It's important to locate the national meets geographically. Sorry we live in a country that is so large and spread out but if you ask west coasters to come east every year, membership would probably drop. They might join local clubs for get togethers. There are a lot of mostly hot rod oriented local clubs where guys just want to hang out at the local drive in seasonally with like minded folks. PONTIAC here in central Iowa has a non national affiliated Pontiac club.
So, keep the newsletter, and I hope I understand it correctly though that I get a "magazine" once a quarter. I love photos of KF cars and historical stories. I like that KF has a historian that is involved in the club. I just wish I could buy his book for less then $300!!!
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There are half a dozen good books on Kaiser-Frazer history and you don't have to pay $300 for any of them. Just watch eBay and they come up frequently. The most expensive is "The Last Onslaught on Detroit" which is a good buy at under $75.00 and the others do not sell for that much usually.
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Quote from post #37 "The KFOCI recognizes the Willys built vehicles manufactured after the purchase of Willys by Kaiser Motors in 1953. By default, we've also taken in the Willys vehicles built after WWII...but seem to have favored the cars, trucks and wagons but not the CJs and Forward Controls."
joefrazer: Apparently you did not attend the National held in Albuquerque NM where I entered my 1958 FC Willys and did come away wih a second place in modified.
Note: this was (and still is) a 1958 vehicle, well after the 1953 Kaiser motors purchase of Willys. There was also a FC 150 at the last Denver meet and was judged. The first National meet I attended in 1978 in Olympia WA. had a Wagoneer judged in the Willys class (I don't remember the year of the Wagoneer.)
Just my .03c worth
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Correct me if I am wrong Barbara but your first issue of the Monthly Bulletin was December 2005!
Yes, Jim, you are correct. Hard to believe it's been 5 years ... and 3 Golden Quill Awards! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we receive another for 2010.
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I just wish I could buy his book for less then $300!!!
Jack & I could not stop laughing when we saw the prices for his book on Amazon.com ... those sellers must be on crack! For half that amount, I'll sell Jack's personal copy to you ... just kidding. Seriously, watch eBay ... his book has popped up from time to time, and at a more reasonable price. Or, you could put a "WANTED" ad in the Bulletin.
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Yes, FCs have appeared at KFOCI meets and I know of another that took home an award at a national several years ago. I suppose what I meant was that the passenger cars and wagons seem to appear more often at club meets so everyone assumes their status as being "included" in judging, when really, any Willys built vehicle is welcome, although we officially recognize those built after the merger.
I'd like us to expand our horizons and include any Willys built vehicle, period. Yes, I know that the prewar vehicles are as much a Kaiser as is today's Chryslers, but like the manufacturers did in the 50's, mergers are a way to survive! And, think out of the box too...maybe we could build some sort of "sister" relationship with the Graham club and their vehicles. Just a thought!
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I am also in the Atlanta area and know Rick K for nearly 4 years now. I had my '54 Manhattan out today to a large cruise-in that meets every month all summer long about 10 miles from my house. I try to talk to anyone who will listen about KF and the club, I even made copies of the membership form, but no one has ever asked about joining despite my cheer leading. I am 54 by the way, and have been unemployed for a year and half. I have not attended a National yet. I do plan on 2012 in Tennessee, because it certainly is within a fairly easy driving distance. My car will never win an award (previous owner got a "participant" award at a National), and that is OK with me. I will probably never drive my car to any meet more than about 400 miles from home, if that. I do believe the National meet should stay on the revolving geographic regions so that perhaps I can attend a National once every 4 years close to home. Maybe when I retire or inherit a ton of money from an unknown relative, I can travel to other regions for meets. Like Rick said, most people wait for someone else to do the work. I guess that is why I ended up doing the Dixie Region Fall meet last year (with help and encouragement from Rick!). I learned a lot with that effort and maybe next year I will try to do that again when our weather cools down in the fall.
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amkfken has to be Ken in Colorado. Glad to see you here! I purchased a (1963) FC170 after Ken's nice FC170 with a FoMoCo 250 appeared at Albuquerque. There was a FC170 from North Carolina that was judged (by me) at the Nashville National. This vehicle did not have a bed, but they were not necessarily sold or delivered with a bed so lacking any knowledge to the contrary, it was judged as is.
The FC170 that I just missed out getting prior to the one I found was a FC170DR (Dr=dual rear wheels) in Dallas that had a fertilizer spreader bed so it would have been delivered with bare rails behind the cab.
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GA Kaiser: I may not make to the National Meet in San Diego this year, but I have been looking forward to a National in the Tennessee River Valley. I spent 9 years of my childhood in Cleveland, Tennessee and remember a house painter nick-named Popeye who had a Dragon for several months as his work car. Independent contractors didn't use trucks then - they bought CHEAP used cars, ripped out the interiors, and did not care for them. So I was 11 years old and already knew weird other cars used GM Hydramatics.
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For the benefit of ROADMASTER49 and other new members who are not aware, Kaiser-Frazer Corporation started as a joint venture between Graham-Paige Motors Corporation (Joseph W. Frazer side) and the Henry J Kaiser Corporation (HJK side). The first several thousand or so 1947 Frazer standard (model F-47) cars were built with Graham-Paige identification tags and sold to Graham-Paige franchised dealers by the Graham-Paige Sales Corporation. Kaiser-Frazer acquired Graham's auto operations in early 1947 (purchase took place in January 1947 subject to stockholder ratification which came in March 1947).
I joined the club in the mid-1970's and at that time the club elected to recognize the 1949-51 Jeepsters and Aero Willys passenger cars but not wagons, trucks, etc. At the 1975 National in PA the club took note of a Kaiser-Jeep/AMC type Jeepster and gave it a trophy in judging (it was owned by the host of the meet). At present we are still a hodge-podge on what is recognized. The rule of thumb as I knew it was to take in only those postwar Willys or Jeep-branded products that had no formal club supporting them which is why CJ's tended to be ignored while station wagons and trucks drifted in after the demise of the Willys Club (another place where I lost a lot of material they asked to borrow for their newsletter and other publications).
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When I hosted the meet here in May 2005, a long time member who no longer owns a KF product, showed up with his 1967 AMC Ambassador convertible and insisted it be judged because "It has the engine (327 CID V8) KF was considering..." in it. I don't know, I thought that was stretching it a bit. He got quite nasty about it and when his car was ruled ineligible, I made sure he got at least two votes for "People's Choice" and made sure the saw the ballots with his car on them. I'm not sure what he really wanted. Is a $12 trophy really worth all that fuss?
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When I hosted the meet here in May 2005, a long time member who no longer owns a KF product, showed up with his 1967 AMC Ambassador convertible and insisted it be judged because "It has the engine (327 CID V8) KF was considering..." in it. I don't know, I thought that was stretching it a bit. He got quite nasty about it and when his car was ruled ineligible, I made sure he got at least two votes for "People's Choice" and made sure the saw the ballots with his car on them. I'm not sure what he really wanted. Is a $12 trophy really worth all that fuss?
No not worth it. I want my vehicles judged, if ever, to see where I might need improvement. I have seen garage fulls of trophies tossed out after a death or a divorce.
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I do plan on 2012 in Tennessee, because it certainly is within a fairly easy driving distance. I do believe the National meet should stay on the revolving geographic regions so that perhaps I can attend a National once every 4 years close to home.
I agree. Rotate. For younger members or older retired types, the revolving locations allow us to visit different parts of the country.
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There are half a dozen good books on Kaiser-Frazer history and you don't have to pay $300 for any of them. Just watch eBay and they come up frequently. The most expensive is "The Last Onslaught on Detroit" which is a good buy at under $75.00 and the others do not sell for that much usually.
I've got a signed copy of "Last Onslaught, 1st edition". I have 2 other books of KF. One is bad, I think Brooklands. The other is the Factory Photos book. Great for authenticity and photos, not so much on historical content.
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The Brooklamds book (if I remember right) is nothing more than a collection of contemporary road tests that include items from British car magazines. It's an interesting read to see how automotive "experts" of the day viewed the company cars but is also skewed all over the place because you are unable to compare comments on K-F products with comments on other makes of the same model year. If you do compare road tests with competition, you may find our cars are not so bad as they seem.
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When I hosted the meet here in May 2005, a long time member who no longer owns a KF product, showed up with his 1967 AMC Ambassador convertible and insisted it be judged because "It has the engine (327 CID V8) KF was considering..." in it. I don't know, I thought that was stretching it a bit. He got quite nasty about it and when his car was ruled ineligible, I made sure he got at least two votes for "People's Choice" and made sure the saw the ballots with his car on them. I'm not sure what he really wanted. Is a $12 trophy really worth all that fuss?
No not worth it. I want my vehicles judged, if ever, to see where I might need improvement. I have seen garage fulls of trophies tossed out after a death or a divorce.
I agree. I think this gets to the point of a specific-make club. I put a lot more credence in a judging sheet from KFOCI than I would even in an AACA Judging sheet. I want my vehicle(s) judged by the people that know my car best. I am fairly young and restored my '51F without much in the way of help from local enthusiasts. Taking it to the national and having it judged showed me the things I needed to do to make the car 100% correct. I doubt the AACA judges have the detailed knowldge the KFOCI judges have on items like engine color, decal placement, etc..... As for allowing a '67 AMC to be judged, the owner should be embarrassed for asking.
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I gave him those People's Choice votes just to see how he'd react when I showed him his car got votes. His car was nice but... Anyway, I might argue that my Mazda MPV should be judged because the rear gate opens up and the seats fold down like a Kaiser Vagabond and that's the way KF was heading so that means it qualifies!
The line has to be drawn somewhere.
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I gave him those People's Choice votes just to see how he'd react when I showed him his car got votes. His car was nice but... Anyway, I might argue that my Mazda MPV should be judged because the rear gate opens up and the seats fold down like a Kaiser Vagabond and that's the way KF was heading so that means it qualifies!
The line has to be drawn somewhere.
That's funny. I think people get carried away sometimes. Do the Packard people allow '55-'57 Nashes w/ Packard V-8s to be judged? Heck no.
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Funny you should mention it. The Studebaker Drivers Club allows Packards to be judged at their meets (although I cannot remember one older than 1955), but I've never seen a Stude at a Packard meet and the Packardbakers are shunned there also, but accepted and encouraged at SDC meets.
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It is my recollection that the American Motors Owners club allows for any AMC product including 1955-57 Hudsons or 1958 Hudson prototypes (I have some pictures showing how a Rambler could be a 58 Hudson). I also understand that The SDC would accept a Studebaker-built Packard. Neither club would take on product made prior to the mergers involved with their respective parent firms. That was done in part, I believe, because the Hudson and Packard groups didn't want to recognize the HASH and PACKARDBAKERS.
Over the years, judges at KFOCI meets have accepted cars not normally part of the "family" either because the car owner was a friend or they didn't have many cars. There is nothing in writing that prevents anything from being judged in the Special-Modified or Miscellaneous classes, including Graham-Paige Rototillers and Kaiser Dishwashers! Too bad the officers and the directors of the club don't want to do judging right; mayhaps it would cause too much grief if people found out what was really correct or not corrrect.
I would be happy to get involved in the matter again, providing the other parties involved all played by the original rules on the project including leaving the Chief Judge out of the decision making process.
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I was at a Nashional (Nash national meet) several years ago where they had a separate class for the Kelvinator appliances. As I recall, there were four refrigerators to be judged. We should encourage the same at a KF meet sometime. We could have the dishwashers and sink tops judged in one class and the tillers in another.
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This gives me a great idea! Decades ago my house was treated to aluminum siding. While doing renovations I have found that it was first wrapped in Kaiser brand foil house wrap...Well, maybe not...
Gary, aka darrin145.
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@HJ-ETEX. I think Tennessee will be a good one and draw a lot of people from around the SE and I am really looking forward to it. I was hoping to go to Virginia a few years ago until they moved it to PA! Not all of us can afford to have 57 year old cars that are capable of uneventful cross country trips, sometimes going to the store can bring trouble! LOL And with this economy, job losses and the price of gas, I'm afraid people like me will be cut out of the hobby altogether.
That guy with the AMC was ridiculous and should have been told a flat out NO. Maybe KF groups need to try to mix with the other orphans at a meet and you can give awards to KF's and other orphans. Let the other orphan car clubs host meets and award to their brand, with our KF's being in the "other" orphan category. It's only fair to the brand that is hosting a meet.
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Joint meets have never worked, at least in the Midwest. The club tried it in the Chicago area a number of years ago and it was a disaster. A hand was outstretched to have the Studebaker Drivers Club in the Chicago area join us at a meet we had. As soon as a couple TV crews rolled in to shoot filler footage for the evening news, it suddenly became "Oh this is a Studebaker meet; the Kaiser-Frazer people just stopped by". By the way, there were only 2 studebakers present!
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I think a new club would work as long as there were limits to production years. For instance, Nash through 1956, Hudson through 1957, Kaiser Frazer through 1955, Packard through 1956, Studebaker through 1964(?)
I understand some manufacturing concerns went on after these years and owners with those cars could join the club and participate BUT I think - for instance - AMC implies later years participation.
Also, for instance, the Oldsmobile crowd is strongly divided between the younger OCA which caters to muscle cars and the AOCA (or whatever the older crowd's club is) which only goes into the early 60's if I recall.
So, I think it is time to do this. Many orphan clubs are proud to be "orphan" owners. It would make for better club driving tours, more solvency, more magazine content and better attended meets.
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At any rate, I think a lot of us in the club at least appreciate and enjoy other orphan brands (I'm not talking about Pontiac, by the way) even if we don't own them.
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I can see a KF-Graham-Willys meet..that makes sense since there is a connection...but a KF-Studebaker meet...that's a bit of a stretch! I really think the former would be possible and would draw owners since many who own one, own the other...or at least have an interest in them.
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I agree on the Graham-Kaiser-Willys event because there is a historical connection between these three makes. Any other historical connections (such as AMC, Studebaker, etc) is too far off.
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Excuse my ignorance, but is there a Graham club?
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Certainly. In the PNW we had a join meet with the Graham Club and it went great. They enjoyed the Kaisers and Frazers and we enjoyed their Grahams. As I remember 2 41 Hollywoods, a 32 Blue Streak and a couple other older grahams came. It was a fun meet.
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I agree on the Graham-Kaiser-Willys event because there is a historical connection between these three makes. Any other historical connections (such as AMC, Studebaker, etc) is too far off.
Missing the point. The point is not 100% historical connection because of the manufacturer. The point is long term viability of any of these clubs. There is strength in numbers. It's not like I am suggesting we ask or join a post war Chevrolet or Ford club. It would be Orphan based and all of the Independents were in the same boat from 1947 to about 1957.
I am sure the magazine and monthly newsletters would be aided by a broader availability of content. Just ask West Peterson who edits and develops the AACA magazine. He has any number of stories he can tap into.
Meets would have more cars. The bank account would be bigger. But the main point is long term solvency of all the Independent clubs that have not built a vehicle in over 60 years (approximately). I would even disagree that we DO have a historical connection. I have books on Nash, Packard, KF (no Hudson yet) because I am fascinated by the post war automobile economy and markets. Obviously all of the Independents ended up on the wrong side of the equation. Many of the Independents went out of their way to be "different" and we can all share those anomalies at meets and in communications.
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I love the '41 Hollywoods (and Hupp Skylarks)--just a great looking car!
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Yes, there is a Graham club. My intent was to hold a joint meet with them...not merge the two entities together.
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check those books...Graham-Paige made Kaiser-Frazer possible. Henry Kaiser had interest, "name" and access to capital to start something but no viable product, no dealer system, and no facility to produce it. Joe Frazer at Graham-Paige had a viable design, over 3,000 outlets to sell it, and a factory that could produce 900 cars a day (the G-P complex on Warren Avenue) but lacked the money to get their car into production and on the road. Had the first 12 months of the postwar American economy gone as many experts hoped, Graham would have taken in enough cash on 20,000+ Frazers to keep up with their share of Kaiser-Frazer expenses and, while it would probably have faded out in the 1950's, things would have been a lot different for Graham-Paige.
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Just back from the Midwest Meet in Indy and if you weren't there, you missed a great show. Two Darrins, a Dragon, a Virginian hardtop, and the prototype 51K convertible were among the 20 odd cars in the field. We also had about 100 members and guests who enjoyed things like a trip to the Speedway, a classic car dealership with over 100 oldies and muscle cars on display as well as other side trips that included a local cruise in. Saturday nite's banquet was a sell-out with good old fashioned stick to your ribs food.
The fall Midwest meet will be held in early October in Oconomowoc, WI. Next spring we will be in Dearborn at the Automotive Hall of Fame where we will be the guest of the folks who run the AHOF and we will be part of the reinduction of Joe Frazer and HJK into the hall of fame. Plan now to attend both meets!
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Fantastic! Good numbers, variety and events. Wish i could have made it. Will try to make it to the show in my area this weekend, but of course, I have no car (KF variety) yet :-\
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I know this is a late response to the argument before, but I feel I need to include my 2 cents as a younger member. I can definitely see the benefit in a joint independents club, and I do feel that such a club would be a strong club, finally putting american independents in the spotlight. I do recognize the problems associated with merging clubs, I'm also an Alfa guy and there are always problems with other Italian car makes at shows, usually with Ferrari or Lancia, but in the spirit of the old car hobby, I don't believe that KF has enough viable products to maintain a club on it s own forever, unless of course, it branched outward to include more items, whether they be KF or not...
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A joint independents club is an impossible nightmare as any good it could do would be lost in the back-room dealing between the various factions jockying for position of leadership. Various efforts at "mergers" were tried over the last 30 or so years with no success. Anything that ended up a joint organization turned out to fail as the groups involved were too week to survive and there were single marquee alternatives to the vehicles covered that gave better service, if you will to members.
Our problem is to get people with cars taking their K-F products to events; I know of various members with nice cars and collections of other makes. They rarely if ever take their K-F stuff out because they prefer the looks, road performance, etc, of the other stuff. A few even believe they will get more attention with their Studebaker, Mercury, DeSoto or Pontiac than they would with a Kaiser, Frazer or other K-F product (except Darrins).
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I agree with the problems stated, you definitely would get a host of leadership issues, not to mention substandard judging. Indeed the problem remains of having enough people show up with their cars, I can understand that. I'm sorry so many attempted joint ventures ended leaving a bitter taste in everyone's mouth, but I definitely hope for a day when there is a strong relationship between the independent clubs..
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All I can say to the next to the last post is..."I'm appauled!"
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I am surprised. We in the PNW have met jointly with the Graham Club, the Studebaker Club and attended numerous Orphan Meets. I have found them all very friendly and helpful. People love Kaisers ... always lots of lookers. I took the Kaiser below to a 800 car "hotrod show" and got a trophy for "Favorite Orphan" at the show.
(http://circlekf.com/images/53k4dr.jpg)
Joint Orphan Clubs of American Independents will make more and more sense as travel costs go up and up. Going to the SD Natl in my own Division will cost us $1000 to get there and back in gas. Local clubs will make more and more sense as time goes by. Just my thoughts.
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A joint independents club is an impossible nightmare as any good it could do would be lost in the back-room dealing between the various factions jockying for position of leadership. Various efforts at "mergers" were tried over the last 30 or so years with no success. Anything that ended up a joint organization turned out to fail as the groups involved were too week to survive and there were single marquee alternatives to the vehicles covered that gave better service, if you will to members.
Kind of like back in the fifties. Deja Vu all over again. :D Ok I couldn't resist it, but the independents fought not too get together back then as well.
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Haha, good point! Let's get some mergers going, and maybe finally KF can get something a bit more powerful than the continental 226 ;D. pnw_oldmags, I love that color combination on your Manhattan, very pretty car.
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I drove that car for 18000 miles and sold it to Kaiser Bill several years back. It is now in his Museum that pic shows it in front of. :'( Regret decision to sell regularly.
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Actually, I thought that was Kaiser Bill's place. At least you know he's taking good care of it ;)
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We always have a silent auction at our PNW Meets. Everyone brings something (KF or Not) and you always take home something different.
This time I brought home a faded 1953 Kaiser Owners Manual, a 1949 Kaiser Owners Manual (the Convertible) version without a cover, an early Parts List, a Salem Natl Participation award Clock and 4 1953 Manhattan window cranks. $8 what a deal.