Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Henry J & Allstate Forum => Topic started by: ro.co3 on April 02, 2011, 07:41:37 PM
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I'm new here, My name is Roland and I live in western N.C.. I have a friend who rotisserie restored a Henry J and now wants to sell it but of course value is a problem because there are so few comparables out there. I'll try and post some pics and maybe I could get some feedback from your group. Thanks in advance.
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http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5061/5583132054_49d87b51e3_s.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5583131966/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5583131808/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5582545399/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5583131564/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61322225@N04/5583131742/
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Looks like a nice restoration. Where in western NC are you? I'm in Winston-Salem. Take it to Autofair this week? Great exposure I would think.
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It looks like a very nice piece of work but the car is a four cylinder without overdrive, which is the absolute base model, so it will not garner the interest or bring the price a deluxe with OD would bring. Also, it's unfortunate that the dash knobs and shift lever knob were not replaced with original types as the repros are available. The original engine color is a much darker green than what this one has.
None of these things make it a bad car but it would likely bring a higher price if these things were closer to what it would have had originally. It looks like a very nice job and if someone wanted, they could easily correct said issues. Of course, there are those out there who don't care about said issues. All of this makes placing a value on it challenging. The fact that a Henry J sold for around $30,000 at Barret-Jackson a couple of years ago has put a lot of false ideas into peoples minds. That car was a '51 deluxe, nicely restored, but the price it brought was quite an anomaly. I do recall seeing a '51 four cylinder sell on ebay for $10,500 a couple of years ago so you never really know. The fact that it's a '53, which are much less common than the '51s, usually doesn't seem to make much difference. Because it looks like nice work, and it's nicely done, it's likely worth somewhere around that $10,000 figure.
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A 1953 HJ Corsair with bare-bones equipment (of which there were fewer built than 1951) went unsold for some months at $3,995.00 in the MONTHLY BULLETIN (car was in VT). I understand it was finally sold to someone in another state who had it detailed and put it up for sale through car magazines for $11,000. Needless to say the car went unsold.
A 4 cylinder HJ gets pretty close to engine rev limits at 60-65 MPH depending on terrain (hills are of course worse than flats) and anyone who knows anything about the cars will be able to tell if an overdrive transmission was switched in by looking at the body plate; those who find out later they did not get an original car are very likely these days to sue the seller for misrepresntation, so I do not recommend that option to get a bit more out of the car (at least on the flats).
Can you get more than a few thousand dollars for the car? Maybe if you found just the right buyer.
Remember, 1920's Durants in very good condition are going unsold in the 15,000-20,000 range; they are even rarer than K-F products.
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As far as upgrading a car for 'user friendliness' such as an overdrive in a 4 cylinder, new rims with radials, electronic ignition, or a 6Volt alternator over a generator, what one can always do is carefully preserve everything and make them part of the sale, with a full disclosure (and pictures before and after help) of what was replaced, and why. Then a car, if a subsequent owner desires, can be returned to factory OEM with little pain, and no reasonable grounds for complaint.
I have an alternator in my 49 to help preserve the current low quality lead acid 6 volt batteries that are available, and I might go the Optima route, but the generator is complete in the trunk and it can be returned to stock at any time.
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This one, a '52 four cylinder without overdrive, has gone unsold on ebay 5 or 6 times now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-2-door-Henry-j-Kaiser-Gasser-51-52-53-54-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1e62b2c019QQitemZ130504900633QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks
It's a driver, with several non-original features, but it is road worthy and in daily use according to the ad. But, there is no one out there willing to pay $4,000 for it.
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Thanks to everyone for your input. I can see that the value of these cars is at an all time low. I guess this was not a good candidate for a full rotisserie restoration. Anyone who has done one knows the expense involved redoing the frame, drive train,paint,chrome, interior,etc., etc..
It was a labor of love for him and he enjoyed it, but like everything in life situations change. I'll tell him to put it away for awhile longer and see what happens.
Roland
By the way I wanted to add something, last summer there was a guy at a car show with a Henry J station wagon. Never seen one before I believe he said it was some kind of experiment from KF. Anybody know anything about it.
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Someone from Florida came up to the second meet at Cave City KY with a Henry J wagon; he said he did the work adapting the upper part of a wagon and blending it into a HJ with roof and rear deck removed. It was very well done and looked like a factory job.
You can always tell if something unusual was done by the factory. There will be something at the SPEC-FO header of the large body tag. Frazers start with "F-" while Kaiser and Henry J cars start with "K-" and Darrins begin with "KD-". Unfortunately the detail behind these cars may no longer exist as company files in Toledo were buried in the landfill (at least much of it) by AMC in the early 1970's. There still could be info in the Bancroft Library files of Henry or Edgar Kaiser (campus of University of California-Berkeley).
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The one I saw was at a show in Hiawassee Ga. and the man that owned it said it was a prototype that was never put into production. I cant vouch for its authenticity but that's what I saw. Let me also say being a guy who's into restoring cars if it was a fake it was a good one .Just to fabricate that rear tailgate would be cost prohibitive for a vehicle with so little value. Anyway if he has it at that show again this year I'll be sure to get pictures and some more information.
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Here's a similar one that's been listed on ebay numerous times -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Henry-J-1953-Henry-J-Corsair-Coupe-Rare-Unmolested-Survivor-CA-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1e62f39739QQitemZ130509150009QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks
I guess, as Clinton would say, "It depends on what 'molested' is." This looks like a very nice piece of work too but it does have some things that are not quite authentic: It is a 4 cylinder without overdrive and that upholstery is not only not original, it looks nothing like any of the original upholstery options that were available on that model. The tutone paint (different color on the dash grill and glove box door) are not original and the red paint on the hubcaps is not either. None of these things make it a bad car by any means, it's just that in my opinion it's not as pristine as the seller seems to think it is. If I were looking for one, however, this is one I would consider as it looks quite nice and well done.
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What would be the 'realistic' driving speed of a >>4<< cyl Henry J without overdrive? With overdrive? I'm guessing 40-45 and 50-55? Am I close?
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I had a four cylinder without overdrive up to 65mph... for a few minutes! It bounced the number 3 rod right thru the block and out the pan. The engine had been patched by a hack job so I'm not sure how it may have performed had it been done right.
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Many years ago, I had the chance to drive a 4 without overdrive for about 15 miles. The drive required some rolling on an interstate and I had to keep up with traffic. This was back in the 55 mph speed limit days and the car was hard pressed to hang in there.
The original specification required by the United States government for the minimum top speed of the HJ (provision in the 1949 RFC loan to Kaiser-Frazer) was 50 mph and it would have to be able to hold that speed on flat lands (for how long at a time is not specified, just the road speed).
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Jack, the expert
What are recommended top speeds for a 161 CI in and out of overdrive? and for the 2 different rear axles?
I ask because I put an OD trans in my '51 that was built w/o OD.
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I have a friend here who drives a six cylinder J, without OD, regularly in the summer time and he said he can do about 60 mph and it does OK. My 6 with OD can cruise at 65 mph and I've cruised at 70 mph too with no problems of any kind. The car does have the 41/9 (4:55) rearend which the 6 cylinder OD cars were originally equipped. I've heard using OD with 41/10 can cause problems because even though the OD allows the engine to run at lower rpm, it still requires more torque with the higher gear ratio. I've had the overdrive units apart and it's clear they are designed for cruising, not accellerating so there may be something to this. My dad bought a nice '51 Henry J from a club member here back in 1996. Not long after he got it, it burned hole in one of the pistons and he believes it's because when the previous restored added overdrive, he did not change the rear end. I'm not so sure I would agree with that assessment but I will say I've never see a 6 cylinder J burn a hole in a piston or throw a rod. Of course, there are other reasons it could've burned the hole in the piston. I think it's likely because of ethanol gas here and the fact that when you use it, the engine timing is even more critical as it pings badly if you advance the timing any at all. Pinging (detonation) will burn pistons for sure so that's my two cents.
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As was suggested to me many years ago for my 49 Kaiser Special, if you do get an overdrive do yourself a favour and keep the R/A with the straight shift ratio, which is something that would not have come from the factory without a special order I think. Instead of having peppier pickup from a stop as well as higher top speed with lower revs, which was the intent of having a numerically higher ratio standard with overdrives in the 40-50s, you end up with all the benefit at the upper end in much lower revs. Unless you are running on exact size bias tires, your shorter modern radial tires are increasing the revs a bit anyway, so this more than offsets that. Cooler running, more reasonable modern highway speeds, and likely better mileage and longer Continental life.
As many of you might know, when you have a car with overdrive and it ISN'T working, what was passable becomes unusable. My 57 Studebaker Champion w/OD (not working) has a useful highway speed of 45, maybe. When my V8 Wagonaire's overdrive wasn't working, it was hot and busy at 50-55, but now can cruise at 65 like a cucumber sandwich
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ETHANOL:
Where to begin? At our last Atlantic Canada Club SDC, we had a representative from NAACC (Canadian equivalent to SEMA) give a talk about ethanol and some related issues. We are in a bit of a pickle here as one of our two regional refineries is located in a province (New Brunswick) where 10% ethanol has been mandated very shortly, and they supply other provinces (like PEI) as well. So, regular will have 10%, premium will have 0% (for now) and mid-grade will be a mix ie 5%. They are NOT going to do a specail non-ethanol version just for us.By now everyone is aware that ethanol is poison to older cars unless many of the internals are changed, and usually the focus is on rubber and gaskets as such, but damage to VALVES and also pistons as well as taking out needles & seats, carburetors and gas tank liners shouldn't be overlooked. Well, 10% makes gasoline unusable for any car before 2001. So, besides all my antique cars, I will have to run my 88 Jeep Wagoneer on expen$ive premium ga$ as well. Obviously, I won't be using that "maybe 20mpg" vehicle more than about 1,000 km a year now, since premium here is now over $5 per US gallon size, or $1.33.2 Litre at the cheapest self-serve price. It costs me $5.00 just to go get gas and return home!
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Try this website - www.startron.com. I use it in all 37 cars and it works! I have no affiliation with the makers, I'm just really happy with it! Another product to try is "mechanic in a bottle", it saved my snowblower this past winter!
Gary, aka darrin145.
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You guys!!! I have a 61 2WD Willys Station wagon with a 134 F-Head. Pretty rare according to the production numbers with good reason. It has a 5:38 rearend ratio. I drove it to the Nashville KF National and back. (Back was non-stop 22 hours because there weren't any motel rooms available on the route. Also ran out of gas on a lonely stretch of highway 15 miles from home, but I had carried 2 gallons for such an emergency.) If the OD had not worked, it would have taken much more hours because I would have been driving between 40 and 45 instead of 60mph. BTW, gas mileage was about 16 mpg. WOW! I should have had a V8.
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Startron is available in Canada from Canadian Tire, it seems.
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The final gear ratio for overdrive equipped HJ's with 4.55:1 rear axles should come out to around 3.25-3.55:1, or in the vicinity of a Kaiser with Hydra-Matic. This is based on Borg-Warner service information that suggests a reduction of 25-30% or so (remember I am not a mechanic and do not claim to be; only that I have a lot of information in my collection of stuff). Willys suggested a 5.34:1 ratio with Jeep Station Wagons equipped with the flathead 4 and o/d, which would be down in the 3.7 - 4.00:1 range.
As I see it, the objective is to keep engine revs down to reduce wear and tear on the engine. This also helps reduce (modestly) the amoung of gasoline burned per mile, producing slightly better MPG than straight shift. How you drive a vehicle is an additional contributing factor.
As for Kaisers or Frazers (226 engine) with overdrive and a regular stick shift ratio, work out the numbers and see how far below (if any) a ratio of 3.31:1 you end up with. This is a significant point as this was the lowest gearing you could get (1953 model year) mating a 226 up to Hydra-Matic (dual range type which would allow you to disengage the direct drive ratio for hilly driving and other load conditions). Go down too far and you will have even more trouble doing hills than you may have presently.
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Borg-Warner overdrives were 0.7 for Studebakers, and I think that they would have been the same standard style unit for Kaisers too, so a 30% reduction I would think. When I had a Suzuki Sidekick clone (Pontiac Sunrunner) the shift from 3 to 5 was the same ratio, and similarly 2nd to 4th ISTR ie, 3rd=3000 = 5th 2100.
B-W chose it for a reason. There is something about that ratio that seems to fit gasoline engines of the old school type, such as flatheads. Dropping from power peak to hi torque range. It was spot on for Studebakers to use 0.7
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Some late 40s / early 50s Studebakers (I don't recall the exact models) used a variation of the same trans (BW T-96) that was used in the J and many parts interchange. If you've ever had one apart and operated it by hand, you can see where the 30% reduction in engine speed comes from. There is a stationary gear (sun gear) and there are 3 small gears (planetary gears) coupled together inside a "cage" which rotates around the sun gear. When the 'cage' assembly turns, the planetary gears turn on the sun gear in synch with each other, and together they drive a ring gear. This results in that ring gear turning one rotation for every .7 rotations of the 'cage' gear set. I took some video of one that I had apart years ago, to illustrate how this concept works. Maybe I should convert it to digital and post it on Youtube as it is really slick how it works. It's also pretty obvious that you don't have a lot of torque when you're in overdrive.
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I usually drive "around town" with the overdrive locked out to have engine braking and save the overdrive unit on the V8 Wagonaire. Besides, it isn't good to lug a 259 that much.
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1) BW literature suggests their OD unit provides a 30% overdrive function so one calculation says a 4:55 ratio gets reduced to 3:00. Studebaker at some time claimed a 33% function but as far as I know, there is no difference in parts. You can use a Stude Champion T96 OD trans in a HJ by changing the nose piece - the flange the throw out bearing slides on.
2) My quick arithmetic says 30% on 5:38 gives 3:78. I believe my Willys SW came with 15 inch tires - in fact, Goodyear Self Sealing 15 inch tires. There isn't even a mount for a spare like on my 56 4WD station wagon.
3) OD has a benefit you may not have thought of for urban traffic. With a 4.55 ratio and not much of a load you can leave the transmission in 2nd gear for stop light to stop light traffic.
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As I reread the entires here, it occurs to me that the original purpose of Overdrive has not been stated. You may think the purpose was to reduce gas consumption, but it wasn't. It doesn't necessarily make the top speed on the car higher either. It does reduce wear on the engine, but that was a side benefit. Actually, the purpose of OD was to reduce the noise from the engine and drive train. Less rpms at high speed made less noise.
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HJ-ETEX has it about right. OD rarely resulted in higher top speed. In fact, if I remember all my car mags from the 50-60s, a lot of the British results showed a HIGHER top speed in straight 4th compared to overdrive 4th, as an example.
Also, if gas mileage was a primary concern (yes in Europe where it was always relatively expensive compared to North America) it would be structured differently, such as having the SAME rear end ratio for both straight gears and overdrive, so that there would be less benefit of the lower gears=better acceleration at the expense of mileage.
I have a general impression of the early 50s mags that overdrive was a desirable option for those who liked 'a touring car with calmness and class' ie less noise and heat, at cruising speed. The US magazines were completely different from the British ones in their take on things. I especially like the British period reviews of Kaiser-Frazer products that have been reprinted and been available in book format.
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1) BW literature suggests their OD unit provides a 30% overdrive function so one calculation says a 4:55 ratio gets reduced to 3:00. Studebaker at some time claimed a 33% function but as far as I know, there is no difference in parts. You can use a Stude Champion T96 OD trans in a HJ by changing the nose piece - the flange the throw out bearing slides on.
2) My quick arithmetic says 30% on 5:38 gives 3:78. I believe my Willys SW came with 15 inch tires - in fact, Goodyear Self Sealing 15 inch tires. There isn't even a mount for a spare like on my 56 4WD station wagon.
3) OD has a benefit you may not have thought of for urban traffic. With a 4.55 ratio and not much of a load you can leave the transmission in 2nd gear for stop light to stop light traffic.
Offhand, and I cannot remember WHICH model, Studebaker DID have an overdrive with 33%. It was something out of the ordinary, so I'm thinking that it was the T85 (very heavy duty) equipped Golden and Packard Hawks, and perhaps some Presidents with the T85, compared to the T86 which was the normal transmission for V8s. The light duty was T96 used with six and low output V8 (232, 224 and some early 259 ISTR). Both the T96 and T86 have 30%.
Overdrive function has yet another benefit in stop and go, and moving but very slow traffic. If you are constantly under the governor speed which is usually in the range of 30 to 35 mph, with the freewheeling which was part of the BW setup, you can shift gears (and coast smoothly as well with the engine at idle if you wish) 1st to second and even third without using the clutch once you start off. I've actually had the opportunity to use that function several times in the Wagonaire, and it makes for a much less tired left leg after an hour or two I can tell you!
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Younger people not be familiar with OD, specifically the Borg Warner unit, may not know where it would be a disadvantage. You would would find it helpful if you drove medium to long distances on flat relatively straight highways. It is down right dangerous in hilly or mountainous regions because of the freewheeling function (no engine braking). And while you can engage it while moving (push in the OD cable), you have to come to a complete stop to disengage it (pull out the cable) or you will damage the transmission. You could be driving on a straight and apparently level stretch of highway and suddenly be surprised when the road drops down and becomes twisty and you have to decide whether to stop (if there is a shoulder) and lock out the OD or hope your brakes are up to the task. I am thinking of a particularly nasty drop off on I25 in Colorado which was no doubt scarier when the the road was old US85.
So OD would be of questionable value in the Northeast and predominately mountainous areas.
Strangely enough, the cost of the BW unit ran between $100 and $108 for all the cars I have seen price lists - not a lot of variation in price - even though they were added to a variety of transmissions and quite a lot of the trans were not BW units either.
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Here's the invoice for the Henry J my dad owns. It lists overdrive at $96.01
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6cf36b3127cceedf6014a007800000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520161118003447595.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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One method of 'locking out' overdrive when moving has been mentioned at various times by both Kaiser and Studebaker folk, about what to do in a suddenly hilly scenario. I give no guarantee that you will not wreck your transmission, and I have never done it myself, but for what it is worth.....
In overdrive (assume in third gear) shove the gas pedal down hard and hold it down tight to engage the kickdown mechanism and hold it in direct, and while it is in 3rd direct instead of overdrive, pull the lever all the way out of lock the transmission in direct and keep overdrive from re-engaging when you let up on the gas pedal.
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I've seen that method demonstrated once. It worked. I have never had the guts to try it myself.
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As I reread the entires here, it occurs to me that the original purpose of Overdrive has not been stated. You may think the purpose was to reduce gas consumption, but it wasn't. It doesn't necessarily make the top speed on the car higher either. It does reduce wear on the engine, but that was a side benefit. Actually, the purpose of OD was to reduce the noise from the engine and drive train. Less rpms at high speed made less noise.
Apparently KF promoted the other benefits of OD when they offered it. This piece of HJ literature mentions the fuel economy and reduced engine wear and tear but makes no mention of reduced engine noise.
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7df00b3127cceee7e89d8b8e700000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520170122043922577.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
I know they mention the reduced engine noise in one source but I don't remember where I saw it. Also, on the J, the '52-'54 four cylinder cars and the 6 cylinder without overdrive used the ball and trunion type U-joints, to reduce vibration, whereas the six with OD used the standard cross and yoke type so they did realize the benefits of reduced engine noise in that they could use the cheaper U-joints on the 6 cyls that were OD equipped.
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Because overdrive reduced engine load compared to straight manual, it took fewer revs to hit the same speed as in regular 3-speed mode. That would normally mean the engine would not be as loud compared to straight stick.