Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Cars For Sale & Wanted => Topic started by: 51FrazerManhattan on March 14, 2012, 07:13:46 PM
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This car is for sale near Kansas City, MO, on I-70, near Sweet Springs, MO. I think there may have been some discussion about this car back in the fall, but I don't think anyone had pictures, and I couldn't find the thread. I went to look at this car at that time, but I didn't think about posting the pictures in case anybody else is interested. I recently came across the pictures on my computer and thought I would post them.
The car is at Lance Auto Investments, and when I called yesterday to see if it was still there, Mr. Lance said he has not had much activity with this car and that it is still there. He says the motor and transmission have been rebuilt and that the car will come with about $1,000 worth of spare parts. He said the price he has marked on the car is $11,000, but he said he would take $6,000 for it. He said he had been driving it around yesterday. I am trying to attach the pics of this car, and one of them has the firewall tag, which shows it is a true Onyx Dragon. The interior is in very bad shape, and the paint is too, as well as the top covering, but it could be a very nice and rare car for someone who wants to fix it.
Now, when I went to look at the car last fall, Mr. Lance told me over the phone that the price was $6,000, but when I got up there, he showed me that tag he had on the keychain that said $11,000. He said he had misquoted me the price, and if I wanted it for $6,000, I had to buy it that day. I'm not sure what to make of that, but I was never looking for a car that needed much work to be enjoyable and left it alone for that reason.
If anyone is interested, I have two phone numbers for Mr. Lance: (816) 807-7753 and (660) 335-2255. One of those is his cell phone, but I don't remember which one. Also, Mr. Lance is hard to hear on the phone at first because he has an artificial voice. When I was calling him last fall, I didn't know about his voice, and I hung up on him several times because I thought the phone was malfunctioning and giving me static. If you know to listen for that, you can understand him just fine.
I'm not a mechanic or an expert on Dragons, but this seems to be a rare car that might make someone in the club happy. Just thought I would post it to see what you all think and to see if anybody is interested in buying it and restoring it.
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Here are some other views of the car that wouldn't fit in the last post. I do have more pictures, but I don't know if anybody is that interested.
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Well, those of us regularly on the forum like photos no m atter whether we are going to buy the car or not. So ite is good you posted. Very seldom if ever has a posting on here resulted in a sale.
The 1st thing I thought was the 53 club coupe in Onyx I posted about 2 months ago for $6000. That car is also very rare and it had better paint and interior and only needed fresh gas and normal items to run and drive. A good value at $6000.
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Received your PM. Here is contact info on the rare and very reasonable 53 club "coupe" for $6000 obo in Onyx --> I am in Rome, Ga and will give you more details if you enjoy the pics. Thanks, Steve (Lloyd) ( 706-252-2052 )
I have not been in contact with Mr. Lloyd since I bowed out of making an offer. I made recommendations to him to get it running, which adds value. I did personally speak with Mr. Lloyd and found him to be honest and extremely pleasant. My issue was I could not close the deal "quickly" as I am involved in getting 4 purchased cars delivered.
I am as much a "limited production" guy as the next one but if I had an "apples to apples" choice between Mr. Lloyd's 2 door club car (Onyx) and Mr. Lances 4 door Onyx Dragon it's not a contest. They made, what? about 2400 53 Manhattan 2 doors and 1300 or so Dragons.
So the numbers are not an issue. Both are rare and given Carlton Spencers desire to colorize KF cars, there are going to be few numbers matching 53 Onyx cars like these 2. So it comes down to which car is better. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that Mr. Lloyds car is superior. We know the history. It was owned and maintained by his dad and prior was owned by a significant collector that favored KF cars. It's not perfect but should be a get in and enjoy car now.
I have a personal history with Mr. Lance. I have purchased 2 vehicles from him. I have spent a considerable amount of time with him. Frankly, he looked about 60 years old in the mid 90's and I thought he was out of business when he closed in an old location near Bates City and moved to his new location. I figured when the Bates City location ceased, he had died. Guess not.
He relied for many years on locals basically giving him cars that were in the woods. He would go pick them up for $150 total cost and offer them for $1500. I do not have an issue with this as he saved many cars and he has costs. But he oversells cars like any salesman, as you have noted. (i.e. this price is good today only)
Cash clearly talks. I think if someone showed up with $3000 comprised of 30 $100 bills, the Dragon would have a new owner. NOBODY is going to buy it for $6000. Only those of us on this forum and in the KFOCI are fascinated with Dragons. if some shmo from KC stops in on the way back to KC, he is looking for 55 Chevys, end of story. And I think Mr. Lance cut his teeth on the speculation driven market of the late 1980's where if you put a crappy 57 Chevy out there for sale, a KC guy working at the Pontiac plant, ahead on his mortgage by 2 months, would buy it at a premium.
So Mr. Lance could have this car for quite awhile. He can explain all day long how rare the Dragon is but it's a 4 door sedan to everyone but the crowd here. Look at ebay. There is a Dragon for sale from a TX that has been on there for 2 years. Stardust Ivory I think? Full-on project but they won't budge off $1395 (I've tried) Stupid. First, it needs everything, very rough and missing key Dragon jewelry. So it sits and sits. The audience is very small (us) so it's dumb to say how rare it is.
But Mr. Lance, bless his heart, lives in a vacuum because of his age and his copy of the "Standard Catalog of American Cars" that says Dragons are "really rare". What is the top price some of you would pay for a full-on Dragon project? $1500, $2000?
Doesn't matter if Charlie Lance's Dragon runs. I want to rebuild the motor for security sake, don't you?
Interior needs redone (except dash looks decent) Body needs paint ($5000-$7000 done right) Look, you either have completed, restored cars that are nice or you don't.
Those that don't will be looking at $15,000 to $35,000 restoration costs minimum. So, this means initial purchase cost needs to be no more then $2,000, maybe $3,000 for special model like a Dragon.
Therefore, Mr. Lloyds 53 Manhattan Club coupe is a huge bargain as it has most critical stuff already rebuilt or replaced, has decent Onyx paint and nice replacement interior. Tweak it? yes, but no need to do a full on restoration like my Polar Grey Virginian. My purchase price? $600. When the seller told me "It's a Virginian!" I said "take it or leave it". Now it's in my garage. Mr. Lance may have his "Dragon" quite a number of years. $3000 is a fair and reasonable price for that cool car. I would gather 30 $100 bills and see if he bites. If not, walk away. Just my thoughts.
Part of the problem with outside forces trying to dictate pricing of KF cars is that there isn't mcuh difference between a "normal" KF and one of the special models (excepting maybe the convertible) Take the 53 Dragon. Jewelry only. You could get a nicely equipped 53 Manhattan with Hydramatic. Next to a Dragon it looks pretty much as nice. But in the reference manual, non members see limited production and add $$$ to the sales price.
Issue is not the capitalistic country we live in, which allows this, but that the car in question may not fall into the hands of a collector and restorer who will preserve it. As with this Lance Onyx Dragon. It deserves to be in the hands of a KFOCI restorer, not sitting for another 5 years on Charlie Lances car lot because he wants a 250% profit instead of a 100% profit. P****s me off! Or the ebay Stardust ivory Dragon....
Welcome to the dark side of collecting.
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While there were more 2-door 1953 Manhattan Club Sedans than 1953 Kaiser Dragons, the Dragon has a much higher survival rate. Check the KFOCI Registry.
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Roadmaster49, everything you say makes sense to me. Kaiser-Frazer cars are special, and they have a special following, though not a large one. There's an Allstate for sale here in Branson, MO, for $17,500 because the guy got it out of a museum and thinks it's rare and should be expensive. Meanwhile, he has it sitting out in front of a restaurant here in town, and I can see it slowly going downhill. I told him that even though Kaiser-Frazer cars are rare, they don't go for high prices, and I told him that the longer he lets it sit out there, the worse it will get. He didn't seem to hear anything I said. Since I've been watching it in recent months, the tires are getting flatter and flatter, and a tail light lens is now busted.
I do not know Mr. Lance personally at all, and I only posted the notice because I thought somebody else might be interested. I think you're right about the 30 $100 bills having an effect on Mr. Lance though. When I looked at the car, I was fairly new to the KF world, but I knew I didn't want a car that was a huge project. The 51 Frazer I got was a great price, and it runs very well, and I'm hooked.
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I still appreciate the photos. Always like photos. Someone will get it one day. The last car I bought off of him was consigned and the consigner finally got to where he put it on ebay. I bought it and then realized it was located at Charles lot. When I showed up, Charlie kept saying I got a steal. It was a no reserve ebay auction that ran twice with no bids.
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Another Dragon that needs purchased is that Turqouise one in southern Illinois that was special ordered to look like the 6 Chicago show cars. He wants (wanted) $3000 for it and probably would sell in the $2000 to $2500 range. I think that interior would be OK with a good cleaning (dark brown leather an vinyl) body is good and it's complete.
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Another Dragon that needs purchased is that Turqouise one in southern Illinois that was special ordered to look like the 6 Chicago show cars. He wants (wanted) $3000 for it and probably would sell in the $2000 to $2500 range. I think that interior would be OK with a good cleaning (dark brown leather an vinyl) body is good and it's complete.
Roadmaster49 ,
We do need to keep up with all the Rare K.F. Products... Try to get New Owners to Join the Club.
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Is the 1953 Onyx colored Dragon for Sale a Golden Dragon? I see the gold plated hood medallion sitting on front seat.
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Hey AZ, just some info as I see this same misinterpretation often. The term "Golden Dragon" referred to a trim package available on 1951 Kaisers. The 1953 Kaiser Dragons had gold plated scripts, hood and trunk emblems and hood ornaments but their model designation was simply "Dragon." Because of the gold trim, people often refer to the 1953 cars as "Golden Dragons" but really, the Golden Dragon was only produced in 1951.
All 1953 Dragons had the gold plated items mentioned.
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Like always, thank you Fid. I would be the first to admit I do not know much about Kaisers, other than 1951 to 52 Henry Js. I have certainly fell in the trap that all Dragons with gold are 'Golden Dragon'. Now that I know only 1951 can be Golden Dragons, I will not be mislead again. Knoweldge is power.
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Just curious about the sensor on the head bolt of the black Dragon, the rear window wiper, and the ivory colored control knob next to the hood release lever
non KF add on's?
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Just curious about the sensor on the head bolt of the black Dragon, the rear window wiper, and the ivory colored control knob next to the hood release lever
non KF add on's?
The Ivory Colored control knob is the same that come with the Fog Lights ... It may be for the extra reat glass wiper.
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Wild Guess #1: Based on the 2 prong electrical style plug on top of the 'sensor'--could that be a head bolt heater that goes into the water jacket? If the bolt was drilled for a cylinder head temp gauge for example, wouldn't that make it too weak to torque? I was also curious about the red control on the chrome part of the dash that is just barely visible to the immediate left of the steering column. Also, didn't Dragons have a special plate with the owners name on the glove box instead of the K emblem?
Possibility #1: I used to live in Kansas City and worked with a gentleman at the Main Post Office who bought a black 1953 Dragon with only a very few miles on it that he said was really-really cheap. It was the only one that I ever saw in the 60+ years that I lived there. It did have the rear wiper which was a REAL curiosity back then. He said that the Studebaker lot on Truman Road (Pioneer Studebaker?) gave him special financing---He was supposed to pay a set amount every 1st and 15th of the month and they would tell him when it was PAID OFF! We used to really get on him about that. When I helped get the contents of the KC Zone Kaiser-Willys depot for George Buchinger, I remember that he wanted to by some Dragon trim from me but I had already shipped it to Chicago and besides it wasn't really mine to sell. I think that Jessee Ehlers also had a black Kaiser with red leather interior, but wasn't it a 54?
Former Member #511
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The two pronged electrical component is a head bolt engine heater. If the car was in Minnesota, it needed it! Anyway, you don't see those much any more since no one's driving flatheads in the winter. The engine in my '52 Henry J Vagabond had one of those when I got it. I removed it and replaced the stud with an original one. Just for fun I put a cord on it and plugged it in - it gets hot real fast!
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I put a K-F rear window wiper on my 1952 deLuxe; it came with an ivory knob. It is the Trico general use kit with K-F instruction sheet and packaging. One of the last accessory items announced in a Kaiser-Frazer Parts & Accessories Bulletin was a head bolt type engine block heater. Unfortunatley I don't have the broadside for it but from the description, it sounds like what you have found on the car. As I am out of town this weekend I don't have the part number, etc, available.
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Possibility #1: I used to live in Kansas City and worked with a gentleman at the Main Post Office who bought a black 1953 Dragon with only a very few miles on it that he said was really-really cheap. It was the only one that I ever saw in the 60+ years that I lived there. It did have the rear wiper which was a REAL curiosity back then. He said that the Studebaker lot on Truman Road (Pioneer Studebaker?) gave him special financing---He was supposed to pay a set amount every 1st and 15th of the month and they would tell him when it was PAID OFF! We used to really get on him about that. When I helped get the contents of the KC Zone Kaiser-Willys depot for George Buchinger, I remember that he wanted to by some Dragon trim from me but I had already shipped it to Chicago and besides it wasn't really mine to sell. I think that Jessee Ehlers also had a black Kaiser with red leather interior, but wasn't it a 54?
Probably the same car.
Former Member #511
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Possibility #1: I used to live in Kansas City and worked with a gentleman at the Main Post Office who bought a black 1953 Dragon with only a very few miles on it that he said was really-really cheap. It was the only one that I ever saw in the 60+ years that I lived there. It did have the rear wiper which was a REAL curiosity back then. He said that the Studebaker lot on Truman Road (Pioneer Studebaker?) gave him special financing---He was supposed to pay a set amount every 1st and 15th of the month and they would tell him when it was PAID OFF! We used to really get on him about that. When I helped get the contents of the KC Zone Kaiser-Willys depot for George Buchinger, I remember that he wanted to by some Dragon trim from me but I had already shipped it to Chicago and besides it wasn't really mine to sell. I think that Jessee Ehlers also had a black Kaiser with red leather interior, but wasn't it a 54?
Probably the same car.
Former Member #511
I think so to unless it would be the other Black Dragon on the List... Plus the Funeral Home Flower Car that has been said before on this Dragon by a Club Member...
It would be interesting if both Black Dragons had the rear Wiper like Vans & SUV Today... Like the Ralph Nader Rear Stop Light In the 51 Green - White Top Henry Kaiser Dragon.
We also still after all the Years have any Dragons on the List before the 2 Dragons. So the ones before couldof been spec. Vehicles...
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The rear window wiper was a KF accessory over several years. I haven't heard of any first series cars with them, but I have heard of several 51 through 54. Dave Hollens had/has a 54 Manhattan with one.
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I have a copy of the Installation Instructions for this accessory. If anyone would like a scan copy of it please e-mail me at AZSteele123@aol.com.
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I have a copy of the Installation Instructions for this accessory. If anyone would like a scan copy of it please e-mail me at AZSteele123@aol.com.
This would be good for the buyer & others with accessory's added to the K. F. Product..
Some have been doing this as a file on Facebook as well ...
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Mark and I have gathered quite a few Henry J accessory installation instructions and posted them for all to use several years ago.
http://circlekf.com/henryj/instructions.html (http://circlekf.com/henryj/instructions.html)
Sounds like it is time to expand this to any Kaiser-Frazer Accessory Installation Instructions.
Let me publish those that I have with a list and everyone else can email me the missing ones for publishing.
Travel On,
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This car is for sale near Kansas City, MO, on I-70, near Sweet Springs, MO. I think there may have been some discussion about this car back in the fall, but I don't think anyone had pictures, and I couldn't find the thread. I went to look at this car at that time, but I didn't think about posting the pictures in case anybody else is interested. I recently came across the pictures on my computer and thought I would post them.
The car is at Lance Auto Investments, and when I called yesterday to see if it was still there, Mr. Lance said he has not had much activity with this car and that it is still there. He says the motor and transmission have been rebuilt and that the car will come with about $1,000 worth of spare parts. He said the price he has marked on the car is $11,000, but he said he would take $6,000 for it. He said he had been driving it around yesterday. I am trying to attach the pics of this car, and one of them has the firewall tag, which shows it is a true Onyx Dragon. The interior is in very bad shape, and the paint is too, as well as the top covering, but it could be a very nice and rare car for someone who wants to fix it.
Now, when I went to look at the car last fall, Mr. Lance told me over the phone that the price was $6,000, but when I got up there, he showed me that tag he had on the keychain that said $11,000. He said he had misquoted me the price, and if I wanted it for $6,000, I had to buy it that day. I'm not sure what to make of that, but I was never looking for a car that needed much work to be enjoyable and left it alone for that reason.
If anyone is interested, I have two phone numbers for Mr. Lance: (816) 807-7753 and (660) 335-2255. One of those is his cell phone, but I don't remember which one. Also, Mr. Lance is hard to hear on the phone at first because he has an artificial voice. When I was calling him last fall, I didn't know about his voice, and I hung up on him several times because I thought the phone was malfunctioning and giving me static. If you know to listen for that, you can understand him just fine.
I'm not a mechanic or an expert on Dragons, but this seems to be a rare car that might make someone in the club happy. Just thought I would post it to see what you all think and to see if anybody is interested in buying it and restoring it.
I called Mr. Lance Today. He still has the Black Dragon... Note : Only Two Black Dragons have been Found & on the Dragon List. This would be a great project for a Dragon restor... G.B. http://www.eskimo.com/~hhagen/reg/reg.htm
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I will call Mr. Lance again see if anyone got the Onyx Dragon ?
Note : The other 53 Onyx Dragon on the Club registry list was at the New Braunfels, TX National in 1992. It was Hirsch from AZ.
Club Members say He has passed. So lookin for the New Owner Today to update the Dragon List.
http://circlekf.com/kfcars/k5301.htm
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I will call Mr. Lance again see if anyone got the Onyx Dragon ?
Calling Charlie Lance every once in a while won't make much difference. Mr. Lance can be initially pleasant but having a club memeber or Dragon fan call him every once in a while will not break his resolve to sell the car for a price out of some circa 1988 pre speculation market collapse price guide. $11,000? $6,000 but only today?
The fact is that within the KF community Dragons are one of our holy grail cars but to the greater buying public they are a four door sedan.
And there are just fewer and fewer folks doing ever more expensive restorations soooo cars like the special ordered turquise Dragon offered for $3000 in southern Illinois go unpurchased for years. THAT car is a much better purchase at $3000 then Charlies Onyx Dragon at $6000 or Steve Lloyds Onyx 2 door at $6000 is much better then buying a Dragon from Charlie at $6000.
He is old school car salesman (remember I have purchased 3 vehicles off him) and most of the vehicles he has were given to him or sold to him for $500. Then he tries to flip them for several times that amount.
In his old place closer to Bates City Missouri, he lived on premises and exists sparsely, so I am not sure what his motive is.
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There have always been people who think because you don't see them around much any more, Kaiser, Frazer and Henry J automobiles should be worth many, MANY times their normal selling price range. If I remember right there was an old woman who wanted to sell a rusted out ratty 1951 Kaiser for $15,000 because they didn't make them any more.
There was also the the former member who lived near the ocean in California and kept his cars out under orange trees in his orange grove. When he died, the executor of the estate thought there should be at least $500,000 worth of cars out there because they were so rare. Inspection of the vehicles showed that the brine mist off the ocean turned the cars into something worse than often found in the farmfields of the midwest; a couple cars even had holes in the top from rust out due to the corrosive effect of the stuff in the air!
These kinds of people have been around since the end of World War II if not earlier; only the vintage and make of car have changed.
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I will call Mr. Lance again see if anyone got the Onyx Dragon ?
Note : The other 53 Onyx Dragon on the Club registry list was at the New Braunfels, TX National in 1992. It was Hirsch from AZ.
Club Members say He has passed. So lookin for the New Owner Today to update the Dragon List.
http://circlekf.com/kfcars/k5301.htm
This car you're talking about belonged to the late Phil Hirsch of Southern California. He bought his car used in 1955 and it was sold out of his estate in the early 1990's. I think Rock Brandt. another former SoCal member, bought it and moved to AZ, then he died. It's probably still in AZ, maybe Berschauer's own it now.
I knew both Phil and Rock well. The two of them in their cars along with me in Old Toby and the Hoffman's, Parker's, McManama's and Bob Metzel all caravanned from SoCal to Ouray for the national in 1986. It was quite a parade: 6 Kaisers and a Willys Aero. The attached photo was taken of me and Old Toby at some summit somewhere in Utah on that trip.
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I will call Mr. Lance again see if anyone got the Onyx Dragon ?
Note : The other 53 Onyx Dragon on the Club registry list was at the New Braunfels, TX National in 1992. It was Hirsch from AZ.
Club Members say He has passed. So lookin for the New Owner Today to update the Dragon List.
http://circlekf.com/kfcars/k5301.htm
This car you're talking about belonged to the late Phil Hirsch of Southern California. He bought his car used in 1955 and it was sold out of his estate in the early 1990's. I think Rock Brandt. another former SoCal member, bought it and moved to AZ, then he died. It's probably still in AZ, maybe Berschauer's own it now.
I knew both Phil and Rock well. The two of them in their cars along with me in Old Toby and the Hoffman's, Parker's, McManama's and Bob Metzel all caravanned from SoCal to Ouray for the national in 1986. It was quite a parade: 6 Kaisers and a Willys Aero. The attached photo was taken of me and Old Toby at some summit somewhere in Utah on that trip.
Thanks for the Info Rick ... Hope someone steps Up & tells Us Who has this one Now. Plus the One here in Cars for Sale would be the only Two Onyx Dragons on the List of Dragons... http://circlekf.com/kfcars/k5301.htm
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I somehow resurrected this topic from a Google Search. I will be in central Missouri Thursday through Sunday attending to my mom's auction of house contents. I will try to stop by and see if Mr. Lance still has the car or even if lance Auto Investments is still in business.
Has anyone located the other Onyx Dragon in AZ or TX?
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Just called the 660 area code number and got a phone message and it was identified as Lance Auto Investments, so it may still be there. Left a message that I wanted a call back.
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Roadmaster49, Best of Luck. Please keep Us Posted on Your results. This is what's fun keeping in touch with the rare K.F. Products.
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Drove by the place where he was and we did not see an old car lot. Still the message I left seemed to imply there was still a Lance Auto Investments...
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So far no response. Since the owner/dealer has a hard time speaking on the phone, I will write him a note and include a SASE
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Hi G.B.
Just read this entire thread again and no mention of the sale of the Onyx Dragon. I know a key member in southern California bought an Onyx Dragon about 2 years ago. Did he buy this one? Not sure.
I would have to say by now, Charley Lance is deceased or in solid retirement. G.B. can you verify by back channels if the "key member" in So Cal bought THIS Onyx Dragon or a different one?
If he bought a different one, then THIS one has disappeared once again.
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Roadmater49,
I will P M You to. I to as normal for Me had to recap the information. I hope someone on the Forum that Lives in the Area could help Us out. We might on The Newer Forum give close to what You said Here for some not All would be locked in for Our Updates.
Remember Hagen Keeps All K F Willys & Darrin’s on Seperat List.
I try to Keep Up The Dragon List. It come along when I got My First Show Dragon Twin to Our Original All Vinyl Dragon. I Found Our Original with Many Wonderful Members in This Club.
I passed Dragon List to Hagen when Our Club wanted Each Model on Web Sight. Club Members send Updates to Hagen. We have 175 on the List Now. Thanks Again Hagen for Your Help on All the Lists.
So I hope We can get an Update on This Black Dragon.