Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Henry J & Allstate Forum => Topic started by: kfnut on May 20, 2012, 05:37:40 PM
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trying to install a new exhaust system on a 52 J with 6 cylinder . Bought a system from Klasskolections a few months back in anticipation of getting it installed as i put the car back together . Got the engine and some of the other items in yesterday . After church , i went out to start the exhaust . I see no way it is going to fit the way it is bent . The only picture i can find where the pipe is installed is in the shop manual and it is a top shot looking down on the system . It appears it is on top of the tranny crossmember . It looks as if it will be in the way of the shifter linkage , overdrive solenoid and pitman arm . Does anyone have a photo of the pipe in this area or advice on how to get it in ? Thanks in advance for your help.
Michael
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The one thing I can think of right off hand is did you specify the exhaust system was a for a 6 cylinder Henry J when you purchased it? The front pipe (from manifold to muffler) is totally different from a 4 cylinder to a 6 and they do not interchange. This is what the four cylinder style looks like - high and curved back at the top -
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2db01b3127ccef07da22bcfdf00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Here's the closest thing I have to a full picture of one used on the 6 cylinder J.
I took this shot under my '52 J last year when I was replacing the steering sector seal.
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2db01b3127ccef07c8e71efdf00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Here's another shot, the pitman arm is off but you can see where the pipe routes -
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2db01b3127ccef07db1850ed000000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
I was doing some work under Edgar Kaiser's Henry J last summer and I took some photos then too. Here's how it looks a bit farther back -
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2db01b3127ccef07da6ec4e2a00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
It is a tight pinch routing it over that crossmember but that's what needs to be done and it can be done (I've done it a couple of times) so don't give up!
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Yes i did specify 6 cyl. when ordering the pipe . I thought it should go over the crossmember but it sure looks tight . I might have to drop the crossmember to get it in even if the pipe is bent right .
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Just curious, did you purchase it from the seller on ebay? I need one for my '53 J which has a cracked one. I looked at those that were for sale on ebay and found them very suspect but I don't remember why. I just know I wasn't confident in purchasing one. Anyway, you're right, it's a very tight fit in there. I think I fed it through from behind, flipped over, then flipped it back over when I got it forward enough. Unfortunately, that was a few years ago and I have forgotten what all I did. I just know I was able to get it in and out without dropping the cross member. It's up to you how you feel comfortable doing it. Best of luck.
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I purchased a exhaust pipe off the guy on eBay for my 6 Cylinder Henry J and it was not right. I also purchased one from Kanter and had to send my old one to them for a pattern. It was much closer but it still did not work. I was able to find a good used on from a HJ Gasser guy. That one fit. The bends on the 6 cylinder are very critical. If they are off a little it does not fit.
Note: This is my experiences and may not be the same for you.
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I've heard the same Mark. That front pipe is actually 1 5/8" and the repros are always 1 1/2" inch dia - it may not sound like a big difference but it is a difference and I figure the engineers designed it that way for a reason so I've steered clear of the 1 1/2" dia pipes. The bends are critical and complicated and I too ended up getting a piece for one from Tom Britanyac back '01 and cut my old 4 cylinder pipe and had them welded together. The shop could not do the bends needed, even using 1 1/2" pipe so I was lucky to find what I found at the time. Anyone else have any experiences to share?
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I'm in the process in trying to locate an exhaust system and have called that Klasskollection. He tells me that the header pipe is made from 1 3/4" tubing. That it fits ! So I really don't want to waist anymore money.
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Kanter did make it out of the right diameter pipe. It just did not 'snake' through all where it needed to very well. I tried to make it work and was very unsuccessful. I did it with the body off and had plenty of room to work so that was not the issue. I spent ALOT of money only to get the free used pipe that worked. I hope the others working on their exhaust pipes have better luck and do not spend lots of money doing it. The exhaust pipe, muffler, and tail pipe assembly has been the MOST frustrating part of my body off restoration.
FYI: Larry Braker has some 4 Cylinder NOS HJ Exhaust Pipes, but no 6 Cylinder ones.
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I'd go with one of the four cylinder types and have it cut and weld a new piece on the manifold end. That's what I did on my '52 Vagabond when I converted it from a four to a six... hence that picture of the pipe in front of the car with the hacksaw laying there. I did not cut the pipe myself. I took it to a shop, with the piece I got from Britanyak and the guy there hung it in the car (he had a hoist of course) and measure / cut / welded it and it turned out perfect. In fact, the front exhaust pipe hanger covers the weld so you can't even see it. Here's a picture -
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2db01b3127ccef07d011f0e1200000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
You can see the weld between the pitman arm and the hanger. If I tip the hanger down, you can't see it all.
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I BOUGHT THE PIPE FROM KLASSKOLLECTION OFF EBAY A FEW MONTHS AGO ANTICIPATING PUTTING IT IN WHEN I GOT TO THAT POINT IN THE RE-ASSEMBLE OF THE CAR . IT IS 1 1/2 INCH IN DIAMETER AND FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN SO FAR IT WILL NOT FIT . I AM GOING TO DISCONNECT EVERYTHING AND DROP THE CROSSMEMBER A LITTLE AND SEE IF IT WILL GO IN . BUT I DON'T THINK IT WILL WORK . THE SHOP MANUAL SAYS TO CUT THE PIPE SO MANY INCHES FROM THE EXHAUST MANIFOLD AND ADD A COUPLING TO RE-CONNECT IT . I DON'T LIKE THAT IDEA AND WOULD RATHER GO TO THE EXTRA TROUBLE TO DROP THE CROSSMEMBER . THE PIPE THAT CAME OUT WAS A JURY RIG FROM WAY BACK IN TIME , BUT IT WORKED AND I MAY HAVE ONE BENT LIKE IT . AGAIN I THANK EVERYONE FOR THEIR INPUT AND WOULD LIKE MORE IF SOMEONE HAS ANY .
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I will just add that dropping the cross member is not that big of a deal really. You just need to support the engine. Remove the rear (trans) mount bolts, the master cylinder mount bolts and if I remember correctly you do have to take out a cotter pin on the master cylinder. In any case, it's pretty easy to see what needs to be done when you get under it. I think I left the parking brake cable attached because it would allow the member to lower enough that I could do what I needed to do. You'll have to make that call when you get there but it's not too bad really.
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Just a few words in defense of the exhaust pipe fabricators. The factory installed the pipe before the engine, with not a thought toward its eventual replacement. I have paid my dues in trying to install an O.E.M. one piece exhaust pipe. Until I personally witness it, I do not believe it can be done! I had to cut it, install the two pieces and then weld it back together. Klass offers two different exhaust pipes, a one piece and a two piece. Why do you think they do that ??
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I just called John at Klasskollection. And was told that they make the 2 piece header. If you have the body on the frame and engine installed you will need to buy the 2 piece header. Now the tail pipe is a 2 piece also because of the shipping cost if it was 1 piece.
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Now I'm confused - I definitely had the pipe off of my 6 cylinder, '53 J back in '06 when I needed the pipe patched. I brought it to the shop and asked the guy to weld about a a 2" piece on the end for me. He would not do it and insisted I bring the whole car so he could be sure what he did worked. I remember bringing the car in that afternoon and he raised it on the hoist and patched it for me. Maybe I dropped the cross member when I removed the pipe but I'm quite sure I didn't... Anyway, it's not worth arguing about but I am confused! Maybe my imagination is filling in where my memory can't...
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It's the sh_ts getting old isn't Fid.
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Twenty years ago I bought 3 HJs and a stash of HJ Parts. 2 of the Henrys and most of the parts are long since gone but I kept a 4 cyl header and tail pipe and a 6 cyl header and tail pipe. All four of these pipes were paint red and labeled never use - only use as patterns. I know now why they were labeled so carefully.
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Lowell...I have to avoid learning anything new. My brain is full to it's limits.When I let somthing new in ,something old is either kicked out or mangled!I try to proctect the most valuable ,like Henry J stuff, by avoiding thoughts of politics or the economy.
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I wonder if it would work to try using flex pipe, and then use it as a template for a pipe bender to make a steel pipe?
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In 1987 after installing the rebuilt engine I brought my 53 Henry-J to a local muffler shop and they built and installed the exhaust pipe from the exhaust manifold to the back bumper. I haven't had any problems with it.
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I am taking out the 4 cylinder that came in my 53 Allstate and replacing it with a 6 cylinder. Should I put the exhaust in before replacing the motor. I know the old exhaust will not work and I will need new 6 cylinder exhaust.
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O.K. I have been wrestling with this exhaust all week . I have removed all items in the path of the pipe but it just would not go in . This afternoon i unbolted all motor mounts and pushed the engine to the side but still would not go in . It was so far dis-assembled i decided to take the engine out and bolt the pipe to the manifold . Now i know it is bent wrong . It hangs too low to go over the crossmember . It might go under but i don't think so and it would be wrong . Also the muffler end is pointing slightly to the frame and would not ine up with the muffler . I wiil contact the supplier to see what they will do and report back with their reaction . Meanwhile i am DEAD IN THE WATER as far as progressing on the re-assemble . I took some pictures and will post them if i can figure out how to do it .
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The pictures ,i hope , show how low the pipe is compared to the tranny mount and how the muffler end goes toward the frame and slightly up . I did get in contact with the seller today but the guy said i had to call Tuesday to talk with someone else .
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I have a enough Henry J experience to tell, just by looking at those pictures, that pipe is not correct and definitely would not fit a Henry J. It is totally wrong. It should be curving back right out of the manifold (look at the pictures I posted previous) and not going straight down for 6 to 8 inches as that one is. The horizontal curvature is totally wrong - there is no horizontal curvature to speak of on an original pipe. If they give you any greif, I'll be glad to talk to them.
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How can I view the picture?
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I also need an exhaust system for my 1951 Henry J. I wonder if the KFOCI Manufacturing Fund could produce a correct pipe set?
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That pipe in the pix looks alot like one for a Darrin. On a Darrin, the exhaust pipe kicks out towards the drivers side of the car because the exhaust routes on the outside of the frame, just inboard of the rocker panel. Where did you get the exhaust from?
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Klassickollection
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notice tailpipe hanging below car.
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/henry_j/unspecified/1397287.html
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There's a lot of alterations on that one.
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How is it going with fitting the exhaust pipe in your Henry J six? I had been considering the same pipes from Klassik for my 51 HJ six, but now kind of holding off from ordering.
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Talked to Jack at Klassickollections last tuesday and informed him of the problems i was having with the pipe . He told me to give him a day or two to look at the situation and call him back . I left Wed. morning for a USS DYESS reunion and returned Sunday . Today i called him and he said he had not found the right pipe among the over 3000 he had samples of and to give himm a couple more hours and he would call me . He did and informed me he indeed had sent the wrong pipe and was shipping the right one out today . When i get the pipe i will fit it to the engine and see how it looks before installing the engine . Will let you know .
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Great news and by all means let us know. If it's the correct one, I may get one myself.
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I would purchase one as well. I think the demand for this item is more than what we all thought. If they can get it right, I am sure they would see mutiple orders. I would certainly spread the word once they get it right.
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I recieved the new pipe from Klassiccollections and it fit like it should . I dealt with a fellow named Jack and he was most helpful . I highly recommend them for the way they addressed the problem i had and made it right . I will do business with them again . I took a few pictures of the install and will try to post them if anyone wants to see them .
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WOW! That is great to learn they were able to correct the problem. I'm anxious to see the photos. I need a complete set of pipes and muffler. Did they use the correct diameter of pipe?
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Good! Now, that means you'll have the car at the national next week, right? Hope to see you there!
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I'm going to probably grab one up now. Thanks, and I'm glad you're good to go.
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Is the tail pipe one piece or two?
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There is one pipe from the manifold to the muffler (header pipe) and one pipe from the muffler back (tail pipe).
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The pipe from the muffler to the rear was in two pieces . Probable for shipping reasons but it worked out fine for me .
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Was this the vendor that now has the correct part?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-54-HENRY-J-EXHAUST-FRONT-PIPE-OR-TAILPIPE-ALUM-/350573997136?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item519fd6ac50&vxp=mtr
What made me leary, and still does, is the ad says "Picture #1 is our 4 cylinder pipe..." which it cannot possibly be, and "...picture #2 is our six cylinder..." which it cannot possibly be as the HJ pipe, for either engine, has no horizontal curvature as that one does.
Here's what a four cylinder pipe looks like -
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2db01b3127ccef07da22bcfdf00000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
The one that the ad claims is for a 4, looks a lot like the pipe for a six.
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Does Klassik finally have the problem resolved for your 51 Henry J exhaust system? I need to buy a complete system for my 51 Henry J, but do not want to take the engine out, or the body off the frame to install it.
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Just got back from the Nationals in TN. so could not reply . THe engine was installed and i had the clutch linkage and shifter rods in but i did not have the steering linkage installed . The pipe went in easy bring it in from the front over the rear cross member . I don't know how hard it would be with the steering linfage in . I did have to twist the pipe at differant angles to get it in but still not hard . Dropping the steering linkage is not a big deal if it has to be done . My problem now is finding that darn clamp i misplaced that holds it to the bellhousing . I probable never had one as the pipe that was on it was not the original shape . It was something someone fabricated to get by . I may be calling for help to find one . One more thing . You may want to remove the overdrive solenoid , if present , to make things easy .
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If you can't find that piece that clamps the exhaust pipe, it would be easy to make one. It's flat strap steel with one bend and two holes. I can post pictures if you need.
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Fid . It would be nice to see the pictures and maybe get some dimensions . I took a picture of the exhaust pipe from the muffler to rear of car as requested .
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This picture may help. The pipe has a standard round hanger around it. The bolt through that hanger fastens to a strap, which is "L" shaped and the other end, which has a 90 degree bend, fastens to the bolt on the clutch housing:
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2db01b3127ccef07d011f0e1200000030O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
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Hello kfnut... could you post a picture of how your new pipe fits in the front?
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Here are some pictures i took when i installed it . Let me know if this is enough or what shot you may want.
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I can't seem to get but one picture at a time . I will try again .
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Anougher
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One more
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WOW! That looks beautiful. Thanks for posting the pictures.
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Just installed the exhaust that was bought from E bay. The front pipe in 2 pieces it seem to fit fine.
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More pics. I hope these help.
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I hope that the tail pipe is correct. The one that I got is wrong. If you look at the muffler clap, it's being pushed to the outside frame rail and that clap cannot be tightened. The rear hanger is way off making the tail pipe close to the center of the car. I called John and all he wanted to do is argue with me. I'm very disappointed. I'll add more pictures so you can see my original.
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More pictures showing the original tail pipe and it's correct!
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My rear pipe was in two pieces and i twisted them around until the pipe location was correct . Maybe all you have to do is play around with it a bit . Mine turn out to look like your ogiginal .
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The tail pipe that I received was in two pieces and there was no way it could be turned to make it work. The guy from Klassic told me to cut my original in 2 pieces and send it to him, ( That's not happening) When this started months ago He guaranteed me to would fit, so I'm sending this crap back to him. I'm done with them.