Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Judging & Factory Correct Discussions => Topic started by: joefrazer on July 02, 2012, 08:32:40 PM
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OK, while at the national, I was asked to review the under hood finish on one of the cars. My specialty is getting things right in the engine compartment so that's why I suppose I was pinged to give my 2 cents worth. I was also asked to put as much to "paper" as I could so here we go.
**DISCLAIMER"" - Although I have restored many an engine compartment, I am NOT THE expert in any way, shape or form. I am certain that I may misstate a fact so if that happens, please send me a message with the correction and I will make it right.
This is an ongoing entry so I reserve the right to get writers cramp and come back tomorrow (grin)...
- All 1947 and 1948 KF engines are grey. The same holds true for 1949 and 1950 engines with a 1bbl carbuetor.
- All 1949 and 1950 engines with a 2bbl carburetor are light (mint) green.
- All 1951 thru 1954 engines (without supercharger (S/C)) are dark green. This includes 1951 Frazers and 1954 Kaiser early and late Specials.
- All Henry J and Darrin engines should be the same dark green as 1951 thru 1954 Kaisers. Valve covers on the 161F engines are black.
- All 1954 and 1955 Kaisers with S/C engines are dark red (maroon). A good match is Duplicolor's Dark Canyon Red.
NOTE - Heads were installed prior to painting so all head bolts will be painted with the exception of the nut that holds the air cleaner bracket in place on applicable cars.
- All cars had the following attached BEFORE engines were painted:
- Water pump (but NOT the pulley)
- Generator bracket that attaches to the block
- Generator bracket that attaches to the water pump
- Distributor base (226 engines)
- Harmonic balancer. There is some question as to the 54-5 cars with S/C. I recently purchased a 50K mile car and it's was not painted. It was matte black.
- Transmission bell housing (All transmissions were also painted engine color)
- Dip stick
- Oil fill tube (134L, 161L and 226L) but NOT the oil fill cap
- Oil pan and drain plug
- Water neck
- Intake and exhaust manifold. (I have seen factory photos with them on and off on the paint line - so I'm open to opinions)
- Accelerator linkage mount plate (piece that's attached to the head using the head bolts) on all 1951 and up full size Kaisers.
- on 54-55 Cars with the S/C, the supercharger and air box assemblies are painted engine color. The kickdown switch bracket and bolts that it's attached to on the airbox are painted engine color. This is as per the 50K mile car that I mentioned above.
- All fan blades, fan pulleys, generators, air cleaners, air cleaner brackets, oil caps, starters, ignition coils, power steering units (if so equipped), and distributor heads are painted semi gloss black. Caveat -> 1947 and 1948 air cleaner are a flatter black than 1951 and up units. Everyone today sprays all of the above a gloss black and it's accepted in judging.
- Coil mount brackets (the piece that mounts to the head/block) are painted gloss black and the bolts are natural color. The coil band (round part that holds the coil in place) is a natural cad color, as are the nuts/bolts that hold it in place.
- The accelerator linkage on all cars was natural color. This includes the rod running across the head to the carb, linkage to the transmission (standard and automatic) and on the early cars, the linkage and all brackets that mounts to the firewall.
- Oil filters: If Fram equipped, orange body with a black top and nut. Tubes, adapters and elbows are natural color. If Purolator equipped, body and top and nut are black. Tubes, adapters and elbows and drain plug (if equipped) are natural color. The bracket that attaches to the canister, along with it's mate to the engine are black. Nuts/bolts/screws are all natural color.
- On the distributor, again, the adapter that sits on the head (226 engines) is painted engine color. The distributor head is semi gloss black and the adjusting plate (part in between) is a natural color. The nut that holds the adapter to the head on 226 cars is painted engine color. On all cars, the bolt that secures the distributor to the adjusting plate is natural color.
-The bolts that hold the fan blade to the pulley are natural color.
-Starter and generator nuts and bolts that secure each to the engine are natural color.
- The temperature sending unit, as well as the oil pressure sending unit, and any brackets, nuts and bolts securing either (if so equipped), are natural color.
- Oil pans and drain plugs are natural color. Inspection pans on the transmissions are painted black. Attaching bolts are natural color.
- Heater tubes are natural color as are the adapter blocks and tubes used on all cars. This includes the elbow at the rear of the engine on 226 cars. Heaters were dealer installed items so the parts were all natural unpainted in color.
Ok, that's the engine itself, with the next installment, we'll detail the firewall.
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This could be the start of judging standards available to all members as a restoration/upgrade guide
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Thanks, this is great informtion that we all can use!
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Great list, but if it is not written down on the judging sheets, who can remember these details while standing in the hot sun?
Any standards need to be backed up by photos/information available in KF print, not by someones memory from long ago.
Logic on how the assembly process works makes good sense.
I have a similar list for the Darrin, but it has never been adopted by the judges.
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Once again, it's time for the judging standards book that we started working on several years ago. Jack Mueller should have all the rough drafts - I sent him Willys Aero stuff. We don't really need to print copies for the membership, just one book for the chief judge.
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If a "Judging Manual" is assembled, I think it should be available to each and every member who wants one! Most other clubs have guidelines so the car owner knows what is "correct" or not when repairing or restoring. I don't think the "chief judge" wants to be bothered each time someone needs to know the color of a bracket or the proper sheen on an underhood part, etc.!
Gary.
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I was involved in a failed attempt to develop Restoration Guidelines / Judging Guidelines several years ago.
After several hundred hours of work by myself and others - We resigned ourselves to the fact the Club was not ready to go there yet.
When I submitted a 65 page sample for the Henry J Class in San Diego to the Chief Judge and the President I recieved no comments - good or otherwise. FYI - Five classes were started.
1. Trying to do a set of guidelines by KFOCI Class will not work. Most Classes have numerous Models for numerous years. When trying to clearly state if the car is this model in this year it should be Delco, versus after this serial# it should be Autolight got very confusing. Model to Model, Year to Year there are loads of variations within most classes. I am afraid a document for each Model and each year will be required. Thank goodness for current technology. I believe a dynamic document can be created.
2. Lots of comments on what is your source of the Truth continuously comes up. No one wants to trust anyone else's word on things without a written K-F Source. You may have noticed all the parts manuals and Service Bulletins I have been working on bringing online to be that WRITTEN WORD. Good luck with this issue - Things like paint color on your engine are not documented anywhere - where is that in writing - I cannot find it. At some point we will have to print it, endorse it, restore to that accepted standard and judge against the same accepted standard.
3. There seems to be an endless stream of exceptions. The K-F Factory caused some of this. I believe they used up a lot of leftover parts - using up last years parts before changing over to the new part in the new year. I also believe K-F Dealers made lots of small changes to make a perspective buyer happy - If you put Manhattan Hub Caps on this Deluxe I will buy the car from you.
Bottom line as a Club we need to write the standards the best we can, adopt them as the standard, publish them and then judge against these adopted standards. If someone can document an exception then it should be reviewed, rejected or adopted and then if adopted it should become part of the Standard going forward. Never use the word ALWAYS.
My thoughts for what they are worth - Jim
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It is always good to have a standard for Restore & Judging...
It is tough if the rules would keep changing. Fun if have a good standard to make improvements.
Early-Late Model Years has always been a problem on any Make.
This is why it is important to get the Judge Sheet to make improvements before the next Judging on each model You have.
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Perhaps we should put together a "scrapbook" kind of an album with all the judging standards, including hearsay, for each car. Have the details together and then have an "editing" session to remove anything that cannot be certified.
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Next up, inner fenders and firewall.
**See my disclaimer above.**
- Unless otherwise stated, NONE of what's noted below applies to the Darrins.
- On all KF cars, the front clip (fenders, inner fenders, front valance and sheet metal) was assembled before it was installed on the car. The fenders were painted at the same time as the body and then they were attached to the rest of the front clip.
- All inner fenders are painted a gloss black. This includes inspection pans, radiator cradles and any vent tubes not an integral part of an inner fender. Henry J cars used a heavy paper vent tube and they should be a flat black color. Clamps used to attach any vent tube should be natural (cad) color.
- Any time a screw was used to assemble two parts, it was done after the parts were painted so any screws, nuts, bolts, washers, tabs, speed nuts, etc, will always be natural color.
- On the firewall, the body and trim tag is painted body color. It was installed before the car was painted.
- If a car with overdrive, the relay, kickdown switch and switch actuator are all natural color, as are all mount nuts bolts and screws. The mount plate for the kickdown switch itself should be black.
- Hood hinges are natural color. On some cars, the springs are black.
- On 1947 thru 50 cars and 51 Frazers, there's a metal cover that covers the wiring harness as it passes thru the firewall. It is painted black and the screws are natural color.. On 1951 thru 55 cars, Kaiser used small two piece rings to secure the harness as it passes thru the firewall. It and the screws used to hold it in place are natural color.
- On cars with turn signals, the flasher unit strap is painted black.
- On 1947-50 cars with a radio, some have an external flat strap mounted to the top of the firewall. It and any attaching bolts are natural color.
- On all cars, including Darrins, wiring terminals, (some cars have more than one 3, 4 or 5 prong terminals), all should be natural color. Darrins used rubber grommets to pass wiring thru the body at the front. They are available thru the manufacturing fund.
- Horns on all cars, including Darrins, are painted black.
- Radiators on all cars, including Darrins, are painted black. This includes the short pipes used on the early cars as part of the lower radiator hose assembly.
- On all cars, including Darrins, radiator and heater hoses should be black.
- On all cars including Darrins, hose clamps are of the nut and bolt contracting style, not the worm and roller style used today.
- On all cars, including Darrins, the radiator cap should be natural color.
- On all cars, if there is a windshield washer bottle, the cap should be natural color (Trico supplied and painted them a silver/grey color). The mount bracket and mount screws should be natural color. A decal was affixed to the bracket front (available from the manufacturing fund).
- At this point is important to mention the brand of components used on the cars. It is as follows:
- All 1947 thru 1950 Kaisers and Frazers as well as 1951 Frazers used Autolite generators, starters, distributors, vacuum advances, and voltage regulators.
- Some 1951 Kaisers were the same as above.
- All 1951 thru 1955 full size Kaisers used Delco Remy generators, starters, distributors, vacuum advances, and voltage regulators.
- All Kaiser Darrins were the same as 1951 thru 1955 full size Kaisers.
- On Henry J cars:
- All 1951 and 1952 Vagabonds used Autolite generators, starters, distributors, vacuum advances, and voltage regulators.
- All 1952 non-Vagabonds and all 1953 and 1954 used Delco Remy generators, starters, distributors, vacuum advances, and voltage regulators.
- On all Allstate cars, Sears brand components were substituted for the spark plugs, battery and voltage regulator. Otherwise, follow the Henry J standards.
- All KF cars used Autolite A5 spark plugs as original equipment. A7 and Champion J8 and J8C are accepted in KF judging.
- All 1947 thru 1952 KF cars used park plug wires without boots at the plug end. In 1953, a "beehive" style boot was incorporated. Wires and boots in all cases should be black.
- All KF cars, including the Darrins, used a Group 1 6 volt battery made by Willard. Today, as long as it's Group 1 and black, it is accepted in judging.
- All Kf cars, including the Darrin, used a black painted battery hold down. All attaching hardware should be natural color. On 1947 thru 1950 cars, and 1951 Frazers, the hold down was a flatter style than the 1951 and up unit. (I am going to post a few pictures of various components to demonstrate what things should look like.)
- On all KF cars, including the Darrin, the hood latch striker plate should be natural color. The hood pin and safety latch are also natural color, as are all mount nuts and bolts.
- On all KF cars, including the Darrin, the negative battery cable is zero gauge, black plastic or cloth shielded and has an offset head. The positive cable is braided and should be attached to the front engine plate, not the water pump or head. In addition, there's a short jumper strap that runs from the same engine plate mount to the frame.
Attached is a picture of the front end of a 53K to demonstrate what should be painted and what shouldn't.
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From the comments, it sounds like it is only the Chief Judge that is against having standards to go by. If they where posted on the forum all members would have access to them.
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Posting on the forum would be a problem because the info might get lost over time. The plan I had proposed was to put standards out on a CD which would be mailed to all members getting publications on a certain date AND be provided to anyone joining after that point as part of a New Member Packet.
The other problem is that only the person posting can update or revise as necessary over time. If the person dies or does not want to change information for any reason, incorrect or incomplete information could still remain. As Jim Betts pointed out (and I know that he is serious about putting standards together...I recommended his format over mine to the Club President, Mike Knittel) his effort was shot down as was mine. If two people tell the same type of story, you know it's not made up or sour grapes. You replace the person/people who are the obstruction as Mike tried to do but got shot down himself bya complaints from a small but key group of people in the club.
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Just to be clear, what I'm authoring here is NOT a set of judging standards, rather, it's documentation around how the car appeared when it left the factory, or when dealer installed items are mentioned, how it left a dealership when delivered to a customer. I wanted to make that distinction because I am neither for or against making "judging standards" available to the general membership.
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::) And I applaud you for it.
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Bottom line as a Club we need to write the standards the best we can, adopt them as the standard, publish them and then judge against these adopted standards. If someone can document an exception then it should be reviewed, rejected or adopted and then if adopted it should become part of the Standard going forward. Never use the word ALWAYS.
My thoughts for what they are worth - Jim
Jim,
You are correct. Do the best you can but there should be a Judging Book with as many consistencies noter per year as possible. THE OWNER of the vehicle being judged must be able to provide documentation IF a discrepency arises.
I am a judge in the Buick Club of America. I am not a fan of judged shows overall. But, for the purposes of maintaining authentic artifacts for whomever, 10-50 years from now, then - yes - we should have an authenticity judging manual.
The BCA has a Judging Manual and last time I looked, Buicks have been made for over 100 years. Certainly, KFOCI can come up with a Judging Manual for the breadth of the run of KFOCI and Willys vehicles!
As for an initial printing, I know that the BCA has boxes of these manuals around at each National meet. They are not printed off every year. Do a run every 4 years and at each National meet have a Judges meeting like the BCA has. These are very informative.
Our editor of the Buick magazine, Pete Phillips, runs a slide show of things to catch and it's an open discussion of whatever wacky question you want to ask.
I would be happy to fund a run of Judging Manuals in the 50-100 range to be handed out to judges at the next National Meet. But it doesn't need to be a gazillion pages.
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I am reading some of the other comments in real time so pardon me if my comments don't catch all of Jack's and other good points.
Joe Frazer's Standards are excellent but I agree these will be lost over time as the post falls down. In the AACA forum world, such an informative post can become what we call "a sticky" and it is permanently placed at the top of the appropriate Sub-Title. Perhaps we can do that.
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I noticed the statement (if discrepancy in judging comes up we need to show the judge authenticity) keeps being mentioned. At this year's convention the owner of the vehicle was not permitted to talk to the Judges. There was a paper passed out at the business meeting about Judging and one of the rules on it was "Do Not talk to the Judge while they are judging your car".
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Buried bones. Long ago I spoke to Fred about restoring a Henry J. He guaranteed me a First Place. I asked how he could be so sure; He replied, "Don't worry about it". Judges in KFOCI are much like the English Crown, endowed with Devine insights.
A true KFOCI Judge story, albeit not at a national meet. At a Tom Hoffman’s annual Hurrah in SOCAl. I brought my 52 ALLSTATE. Judging began in the morning. About noon Rudy showed up in his convertible. The awards were presented after lunch. I won the peoples choice by having the most votes . Tom got out a second peoples choice award and gave it to Rudy saying he was sure that if Rudy had arrived earlier he would have had the most votes. I dropped my award on the ground, drove off and never again attended a SOCAL event.
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I was at the Business Meeting and my understanding was the Board was considering cutting back on Quarterly's this next year to save money. I didn't hear that the Board had made the decision to eliminate all Quarterly's for a year but that could have been the selective hearing my wife always complains about!
My personal opinion is no publications = no members. Most members are unable or choose not to attend the National. They rely on the publications to keep them plugged in and to justify the $35/year membership.
Maybe our President will have something on this and the state of the clubs affairs/finances in the August Bulletin?
Just one guys opinion who's been in the organization for 30 years.
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Regarding the Quarterly publication and what was discussed at the national meet, detail around the decision will be part of a future publication. The club's officers would rather use that forum than this one, just so we're sure the same message gets to the entire membership.
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Sounds like I best keep scanning and posting Old Quarterlies to give everyone some interesting to read for the next year or so.
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Without any written detailed standards, the person restoring the vehicle has to rely on conversations with others who claim to know what is correct.
If you are a new owner, and new to the club, your first experience with judging could be very disappointing. Maybe some minute detail was missed in the countless conversations that one had with the experts.
Try, try again, hoping to get it right.
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When people pay more money for less product, it usually results in less people purchasing that product.
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Without any written detailed standards, the person restoring the vehicle has to rely on conversations with others who claim to know what is correct.
If you are a new owner, and new to the club, your first experience with judging could be very disappointing. Maybe some minute detail was missed in the countless conversations that one had with the experts.
Try, try again, hoping to get it right.
As stated by others, so many new members buy a car being told that it is correct and will win an award, bring it to a show with that intention. People take getting a small plastic trophy too seriously. I am more interested in the authenticity as these cars are artifacts of a by-gone era and we should do our best to preserve them, awards be damned.
For my 49 Virginian, I am using the car itself as my template. Being in the hobby a million years and having owned well over 225 cars, I know original from replacement. My interior is in rags but original and so on and samples of the original fabrics will be retained for the eventual future buyer, if and when I sell it.
I may not be able to 100% duplicate the interior or the correct "tint" of turquiose but at least I have what the factory put in there to begin with.
I really read Joe F's posts carefully. I am going to print them off and compare to what I have and try to recreate the engine compartment authentically.
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Good point about originality.
Our judging system does not give credit for original parts.
For example, at the National in TN, a Darrin was giged one point for a few small chips in the original, but polished, wind wings. I would have given back the point for being an original part.
But, on the other hand, no points were deducted for the windshield that was a repro, and not a PPG repro. The Darrins were produced with PPG windshields, not Viracon or others. I would then have deducted points for "non KF"!
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People take getting a small plastic trophy too seriously. I am more interested in the authenticity as these cars are artifacts of a by-gone era and we should do our best to preserve them, awards be damned.
I totally agree. I want to get my cars "right" because it's a labor of love and passion, not because I expect a reward of some type. If I ever get to that point, lock me up.
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People take getting a small plastic trophy too seriously. I am more interested in the authenticity as these cars are artifacts of a by-gone era and we should do our best to preserve them, awards be damned.
I totally agree. I want to get my cars "right" because it's a labor of love and passion, not because I expect a reward of some type. If I ever get to that point, lock me up.
I feel the same Way...
On My All Vinyl Dragon I got Second Jr. at AACA & 15 Years later got the Same. This made Me feel good that I showed, drove, & participated in many events with Local, KFOC,AACA Club meets. I could of not do any Shows & keep it in the garage.
Like before mentioned You do not talk to a Judge at A.A.C.A. till They ask You. They first wanted to know about the White Top not being Bambu ? You must have documentation to Pass. I did. One man said as a suggestion that light scratches on the wind shield from My wipers I should replace it. Then another Judge said wait , the K.F.O.C. Club is a driver to a meet club not trailer , so they gave Me back the Points for the Lt scratches.
K.F.O.C. I got First, Second. Then did some improvements to preserve My vehicle & got back to First during this same time period.
I told many, It was more important to Me that I do well with the K.F.O.C. Judging because they know Our Product the Best.
We need to keep this standard to be a fair club for all Members...
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I had suggested "bonus points" for the original factory type part such as Auto-Lite branded (original lettering, etc) plugs, correct branding on glass, etc. Not everyone can be either at the right place at the right time to stumble across original type stuff or the original stuff honestly cannot be found. That would help offset minor dings and condition related items.
Like all my other judging suggestions over the years, that went into the circular file.
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This discussion is driving me crazy. The reason I joined was to have access to information to correctly restore my Willys Aero. For my Corvette the National Corvette Restorers Society has a booklet that provides guidance on finishes (flat, semi gloss, gloss, black zinc, cad, aluminum, natural, ... fastener head markings, etc) When I am going to the work of blasting the part and refinishing it, why not make it right.
To address the original versus aftermarket question, it is a simple matter to have deducts for originality and deducts for condition leading to a final score.
I am very grateful for Joe Frazers effort to give us this information. As I offered when I joined the group, if anyone wants help to pull this together I am willing to help - I just cannot wait forty years for it.
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Radical thought here:
We are all club members and therefore volunteers. Why not each of us put together something similar to what "Joe Frazer" did in an earlier entry to this thread, but for the cars that we are knowledgeable about. Include footnotes indicating K-F, K-W and W-O documents that corroborate your claims. Photographs of documented original cars also help.
It is so much easier to do the job and apologize later than to ask for permission and never get the job done. We don't really need club permission to do this, we are all amatuer (and some of us professional) historians. We can do this without club authorization for now.
Jack, can you send me a copy of the format that you suggested we use, and send it to anyone who requests it. I will begin re-formatting the Willys Aero section that I did a few years back. Even if there is duplication of car coverage, that's all right, we'll "edit" it all later.
Will this get me evicted from the club? HA! I always was an anarchist.
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Why not each of us put together something similar to what "Joe Frazer" did in an earlier entry to this thread, but for the cars that we are knowledgeable about.
A number of us did exactly that a couple of years ago - it went nowhere. I don't recall why it went nowhere but I do know it wasn't the first attempt either. Personally, I've given up on it. I've learned more on these forum boards than anywhere else.
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Wow...I'm glad to see that my entry is eliciting such a strong response! What I'm planning to do is devote a web page (not just an entry here) that will detail, by year and model the under hood standards that will include photographs of the various components. I may extend that to chassis standards too if there's enough desire from everyone. This way, we'll have something that everyone can use. You'll have the description along with a photo of the item so you'll know what you're looking at and what it's supposed to look like!
As for using the information as a "judging standard", that will be up to the user.
Now to get back to filling in some of the blanks on my other posts!
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Joe Frazer, thanks for putting something in writing that we can all go by. This information for members would make it worth joining the club.
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Everyone seems to say they have spent time on this project but this is the first time I have seen it on here where we can actually use the information. The work is a waste of time if you don't let other members use it.
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There are a small (relatively speaking) number of long-time club members who stand to take a drop in point totals (which would be enough to eliminate them from best in show, judges choice, and perhaps even GOLD awards) who don't want written standards, along with a history of Chief Judges who believed that they were the only source of knowledge but of course, would never put anything down on paper for the membership.
Because my schedule is tied into shut-down and model year changeover periods for (originally) Ford and now GM, Barbara and I cannot just drop everything and go to National Conventions; a Chief Judge should be required to make Nationals.
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For those who want Darrin specific information, here you go...
By the way, several additions have been made to my two large posts.
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I think the whole idea of the standards is great. The more information we have the better. I'll bet plenty of members want this. I hope this whole thing eventually gets on disc or printed up and distributed to all the members. Meanwhile members can print the pages off their computer just in case. Good Work !
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I presented potential judging standards for the Darrin based upon earlier ones from 1997.
These were printed in the Darrin Newsletters for owners of Darrins to comment /correct.
Changes were made based upon information from original/unrestored cars, which I believe is the proper way to issue changes.
Several items are indeed different from the age-old descriptions that this club has held as "golden" for years and has been used in the judging of these cars for decades.
This was to be the basis for developing new judging standards by a small select group of members, i,e., chief judge, historian (for background confirmation), 3 Darrin owners including yours truely.
This endeavour stalled in space somewhere.
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Why not each of us put together something similar to what "Joe Frazer" did in an earlier entry to this thread, but for the cars that we are knowledgeable about.
A number of us did exactly that a couple of years ago - it went nowhere. I don't recall why it went nowhere but I do know it wasn't the first attempt either. Personally, I've given up on it. I've learned more on these forum boards than anywhere else.
Fid
Not sure what you mean by it went nowhere. If it was "unofficial" then we don't care what the officers of the KFOCI desire. If it went nowhere because of no one wanted the copies or information, that's different.
I am in favor of what I believe Aeroman is stating - an unofficial non club sanctioned guide that helps us keep our KF cars authentic and aids in restoration. Let the club's judging standards remain and don't mix the two for now. Just get the information out.
Seems we have experts on here for each model and years, so each of the experts should write something up and provide it to Jack. When Jack gets more time, he can put it all together on a CD (CD right?) and send it out to everyone, who in turn can print it off.
I am more then willing to fund the cost of the CD's which is nominal I think. (Yeah way to go out on a limb) and subsequent mailing costs to interested parties.
Being a fairly new member I am not privy to all the old politics stuff and like the tone of recent posts indicating we should just do it and not worry about incorporation into the judging at Nationals.
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a Chief Judge should be required to make Nationals.
Who is the Chief Judge and is it different from year to year? National to National? Let's get him or her on here to comment rather then beat around the bush.
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Let's pretend for a moment.
Pretend that we generate a list of restoration guidelines based upon looking at a "fresh off the assembly line" car that has been in a closed box for the past 60 years.
Great list, accurate beyond imagination.
We now take that list and restore a basket case.
It's perfect. Now what??
If the club does not recognize the list, it doesn't mean diddly at judging at a National Convention.
An exercise in futility.
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I disagree with the process being futile. National Conventions are not everything - After all they only come around to most of us every three years. Every time the car is seen whether at a KFOCI gathering or not, having my vehicles restored to original condition for all to see is all I ask. Trophies just gather dust --- while smiles and praise from other car lovers makes me a happy car guy. When they ask ... "Is this what this car originally looked like 60 years ago, Whow?" ... I am delighted to say ... "Yes, to the best of my knowledge it is!!"
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Terry,
Granted, these may not be accepted by the club AT FIRST, but once reviewed and discussed, I feel they will become part of the club. These are only to be guidelines since a lot of it will be "hearsay." And most of us like to have our cars recognized with a trophy, most of us like it even more if we know our car is accurate. This is a club that we join for fun and information, we need to offer exactly that.
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This is a Good Idea. List Special info on the Vehicle You know.
Some Dragons have last Four digets of The Vin scratched on The Black under Glove Box.
I found it on My Show Dragon. Only on Dragons. St. Louis National I told Judge Walker after looking at a few Dragons At Owners permission. Fred said Give Me an Hour ? I will ask others.
He come back said Dragons sent to Darrin’s trim done remember? Yes. When they pulled the Dash to do Bambu Vinyl, they removed Chrome section. So screw holes would match for Installation.
One More, on All Vinyl Dragons did not have the Mate under the Peadles? I have Original Carpet, does not have markers Showing sowed in.
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Hey, guess what? We now have a President, Chief judge and Historian who are all sticklers for authenticity on our cars and want these judging guidelines to get finished and printed and available to the members in the worst way. If you still have remnants of judging guidelines that you worked on at one time please send them on to our club Historian. Judging standards are being worked on as you read this and your help and information is needed. Lets all pitch in and get this important job done. This information will not disappear into the dust as it did in the past and we will all be happy when it it is finished. In re reading through this entire thread there is much work already started and we can follow through and make things happen. Everything in the new guidelines will be backed up with the source in which the information was found.
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Good news Gordie. A few years ago, the club VP (Mr. Steele) and I put together a lot of information on the Henry J. Hopefully Mark still has it! If not, let me know and I'll be willing to contribute to pulling it all together again.
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Thanks fid, I had emailed Mr Steel about it but never got an answer. Your expertise on Henry J's would be a big help.
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There are 2 very informative threads about engine colors & gloss from a year or 2 ago with firsthand info from joefrazer, aeroman & I that would be a good fit to move to this new category, as well as adding to official standards.
One is in the Darrin thread, the other is in the Willys thread.
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Hey, guess what? We now have a President, Chief judge and Historian who are all sticklers for authenticity on our cars and want these judging guidelines to get finished and printed and available to the members in the worst way. If you still have remnants of judging guidelines that you worked on at one time please send them on to our club Historian. Judging standards are being worked on as you read this and your help and information is needed. Lets all pitch in and get this important job done. This information will not disappear into the dust as it did in the past and we will all be happy when it it is finished. In re reading through this entire thread there is much work already started and we can follow through and make things happen. Everything in the new guidelines will be backed up with the source in which the information was found.
GORDY
WHO MAY I ASK BROUGHT THIS TO THE FOREFRONT AFTER HAVING BEEN IGNORED FOR THE PAST 10 YEARS WHEN I FIRST PUBLISHED "DETAILED" DARRIN STANDARDS??
LET NO GOOD DEAD GO UNPUNISHED.
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This is Great News. A Good Historian would understand Original. The more You Know better You will Keep it that Way.
If You have a Driver not Original don’t Judge. Or put it in Modified.
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Hey, guess what? We now have a President, Chief judge and Historian who are all sticklers for authenticity on our cars and want these judging guidelines to get finished and printed and available to the members in the worst way. If you still have remnants of judging guidelines that you worked on at one time please send them on to our club Historian. Judging standards are being worked on as you read this and your help and information is needed. Lets all pitch in and get this important job done. This information will not disappear into the dust as it did in the past and we will all be happy when it it is finished. In re reading through this entire thread there is much work already started and we can follow through and make things happen. Everything in the new guidelines will be backed up with the source in which the information was found.
GORDY
WHO MAY I ASK BROUGHT THIS TO THE FOREFRONT AFTER HAVING BEEN IGNORED FOR THE PAST 10 YEARS WHEN I FIRST PUBLISHED "DETAILED" DARRIN STANDARDS??
LET NO GOOD DEAD GO UNPUNISHED.
Terry, Jack Mueller, Jim Betts and I have been working for a long time to get good guidelines in place and are working on them now. Please send your Darrin Standards to Jack or me and we will get them included.
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Joe,
Is that specific to a certain brand?
If I could weigh in as a relatively newer member, and perhaps a bit younger than most other members - I think a comprehensive guide for what was original would be fantastic to those just joining the club, getting into owning these cars, or someone finally getting around to restoring their rust bucket. Now, I did not have the privilege of growing up with Kaisers cars on the road or having any direct nostalgia for them - my interest comes purely from that my grandfather owned a Frazer and I have a personal interest in 50’s cars, independent makes especially. So I haven’t a clue as to what my ‘51 should really look like detail wise unless I get that information here or from other club members cars. I feel that as we look toward future membership and hopefully new members, we should be able to help guide them to what these cars originally looked like in detail - this information is only going to get harder to find as time goes on, and I for one think it’s worth preserving. :)