Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Judging & Factory Correct Discussions => Topic started by: MilesP on January 10, 2013, 03:35:34 PM
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New thread with comments from Bulletin Editor post
Re: Bulletin Editor
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 04:25:54 PM »
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None of us seems to know what happened but we have suddenly lost one of the best editors that we ever had and who enjoyed her job and had much back-up from our Club Historian. A real loss for everyone involved! Many of the old club officers fought Jack Mueller to the bitter end in his attempt to put some authenticity into the judging system. Aren't we all working for the betterment of the club???
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Member #3151
'47 Graham Paige Frazer
'48 Frazer Manhattan
'51 Kaiser Dlx club coupe
'51 Kaiser customized convertible
'52 Allstate body #37
'53 Willys Aero Eagle
'54 Willys Aero Eagle Custom
Corsairdeluxe
Jr. Member
Posts: 84
Re: Bulletin Editor
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 06:34:28 PM »
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Starting way back, this club has bitterly resisted uniform judging against written standards. They have insisted on the arbitrary standards of who ever was the currently guru. There has been more than one rumor of improper consideration over the years. I have an experience of my own, but I do not wish to be sued and will not relate.
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kaiserfrazerlibrary
Hero Member
Posts: 1283
I am the club historian of the Kaiser-Frazer club
Re: Bulletin Editor
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2013, 02:56:31 PM »
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I speak here only for judging and accuarcy issues, NOT anything to do with the Bulletin.
While there seems to be a lot of sincere interest among members about fixing the problems connected with judging standards & the training of judges, when it comes time to go to a Business Meeting and hold the club management's feet to the fire (so to speak) to get things fixed (or elect new officers that will commit to fixing problems and follow through) past history indicates that the effort fades out or the effort is so badly organized (perhaps not by accident?) that the nay-sayers say it cannot be done & steam roller over it. Past events suggest that the people who protest the loudest may be the people with the most to loose if written standards were distributed to car owners and they could really see what's supposed to be what.
I have a plan to fix things and put it in place on a two-year timetable.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 02:59:39 PM by kaiserfrazerlibrary »
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Re: Bulletin Editor
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2013, 07:09:19 PM »
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How can we implement this plan? Is there any chance of the members voting for it or will it just go away because some of the club officers don't want it?
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Member #3151
'47 Graham Paige Frazer
'48 Frazer Manhattan
'51 Kaiser Dlx club coupe
'51 Kaiser customized convertible
'52 Allstate body #37
'53 Willys Aero Eagle
'54 Willys Aero Eagle Custom
joefrazer
Hero Member
Posts: 946
Re: Bulletin Editor
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 10:03:00 PM »
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Let me comment on the issue of judging. My personal opinion of whether judging should happen at all aside, the issue lies with having people who will commit themselves to becoming SMEs (Subject Matter Experts), in addition to having material to support them. While at the national meet, many folks step up to the plate and help judge...that's great...except that many have little experience as judges and they have little to support them as judges. I've read...and heard...it time and time again..."I'd like to help"...but when it comes to to actually assist with getting the alleged ills with judging corrected, you can hear a pin drop.
So, until a firm group of committed people step forward and build both a library of material to help the judges, and we have a core team of people who will commit to judge at each national to maintain a consistent approach, we'll only continue to hear the same chorus of "when is somebody gonna do something about judging".
« Last Edit: Today at 04:37:35 AM by joefrazer »
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Vice President, KFOCI
1954 Manhattan
1953 Manhattan
1950 Traveler
1951 Jeepster
1947 Kaiser Special
1996 Mercedes Benz SL 500
1981 Cadillac Eldorado
And lots and lots of assorted junque!
Terry T
Full Member
Posts: 243
Editor Darrin Newsletter/Registry
Re: Bulletin Editor
« Reply #17 on: Today at 05:25:38 AM »
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f we are gointg to continue a "judging" conversation, let's start a new thread with that in the subject matter.
In this manner, those in the future who are concerned about judging can go to the proper thread rather than have pertinent info buried in a "bulletin editor" thread.
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kaiserfrazerlibrary
Hero Member
Posts: 1283
I am the club historian of the Kaiser-Frazer club
Re: Bulletin Editor
« Reply #18 on: Today at 11:03:50 AM »
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Very good point, Terry! Although there are some who would want to see the topic buried, it should be moved from this particular thread.
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I did not post anything in this thread until now. I have no idea what I was supposed to have said in the past; I am assuming the prior postings credited to me are the blank areas of copied items from a different thread.
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KF Restoration and Judging.
I do believe these two subjects go hand in hand. Personally my emphasis is on restoration. Accurate restoration - attempting to keep or return a vehicle back to its original condition is where my interest is.
The fact that an accurate restoration “should†end up in with a high judging score is just a plus.
My fear is that before I get the Kaisers in my future restored … those who know what was originally installed on specific model will have passed on. Much of the information really does not have a good KF written source. Case in point is the ‘53 Carolinas. After months of gathering documents and reading bulletins lots of particulars just were not documented. We will have to rely on subject matter experts (SMEs) to document what they believe as a guideline and as a group debate and approve each guideline. These approved guidelines and become part of our restoration guidelines and judging standards. Guidelines should be backed up by the printed KF word as much as possible.
I have developed a website for recording of these restoration guidelines. This website will allow authorized individuals over the internet to add a new guideline and decide which KFOCI Classes and or specific KF Models a specific guideline applies to. Each guideline can have verbal explanations, supporting photo(s) can be attached, sources can be documented and even linked to specific pages in the KF Manuals that have been put online is possible.
This software is in its first version and is certainly not perfect. Constructive feedback that will improve it will be appreciated. Give it a try and let me know what you think. The link to it is http://circlekf.com/kfrestore (http://circlekf.com/kfrestore)
When trying the software to see sample guidelines - go into VIEW BY CLASS and then select to VIEW MODELS of Class 04 Henry J. Class 04 is currently the only Class with any data entered.
If you want to see the update capabilities try going into the UPDATE LOGIN. Currently there is no security in this section – any user name and password will work (NOW). The vision is to only allow approved individuals to update guidelines and attach them to classes and models.
If there is interest in using this software to develop and maintain restoration / judging guidelines GREAT … else I have only wasted a couple months of my spare time I should have been working on my own KF Cars.
Travel On. Jim
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I think I heard "The" pin drop.
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Jim,
I love what you have done. I don't have a J but I am trying to restore my 54 Manhattan. When I got the car it was supposed to be a rust free car with all the parts. Needless to say I'm still welding in metal and trying to find parts. What's correct sometimes is in the sellers best interest. What you are doing would give me and many others a sporting chance.
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I belong to the club for the fun of going to shows and meeting othr members of KFOCI. Too bad some members feel "judging" is more important!
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Hey 52AeroWillys guy! Nice car - and nice choice of car!
Judging is not the end-all of KFOC. I will bet most of us joined KFOC due to like interests in our cars and we've developed camaraderie and long term friendships during our membership. Judging is there as a restoration tool, pointing out what is correct and incorrect about the car. Yes it's a competition and a little competition is healthy, but I cannot think of any club members that were/are so obsessed with winning a trophy that they will lose friends over it. In all my years in the club, judging has been pretty good-natured and discrepancies were resolved at the time. Yes, some were disappointed and a few feathers were ruffled because the car was not as good as the owner thought it was, but it was usually much improved the next time out.
And no one is forcing anyone to have their car judged. Everyone is more than welcome to display only.
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Jim Betts:
I have logged on and want to try to add Willys Aero stuff, not sure how to create a new model and how to attach guidelines to that model.
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I will get that done --- 52, 53, 54 models first?
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Rick,
As you know I have been struggling with the Model Designations for the Willys.
Guidelines when established can be created for the entire "Class" or for a "Specific Model"
Does the list below provide a fine enough model breakdown for you to create your Willys Guidelines??
Can you by looking at a Willys Vehicle Data Plate Identify which of one of these model it was manufactured as??
Class Model Make Year Series Doors ModelDescription
006 W-451-BA1 Willys 1951 473 Jeepster 2 Door 1951 Jeepster 4 Cylinder
006 W-651-BA1 Willys 1951 673 Jeepster 2 Door 1951 Jeepster 6 Cylinder
006 W-652-KA2 Willys 1952 685 Aero Lark 2 Door 1952 Willys Aero Lark (2-Door)
006 W-652-LA1 Willys 1952 685 Aero Wing 2 Door 1952 Willys Aero Wing (2-Door)
006 W-652-MA1 Willys 1952 685 Aero Ace 2 Door 1952 Willys Aero Ace (2-Door)
006 W-652-MC1 Willys 1952 685 Aero Eagle (Hardtop) 2 Door 1952 Willys Aero Eagle (2-Door)
006 W-653-KA2 Willys 1953 675 Aero Lark 2 Door 1953 Willys Aero Lark (2-Door)
006 W-653-KB1 Willys 1953 675 Aero Lark 4 Door 1953 Willys Aero Lark (4-Door)
006 W-653-MA1 Willys 1953 685 Aero Ace 2 Door 1953 Willys Aero Ace (2-Door)
006 W-653-MB1 Willys 1953 685 Aero Ace 4 Door 1953 Willys Aero Ace (4-Door)
006 W-653-MC1 Willys 1953 685 Aero Eagle 2 Door 1953 Willys Aero Eagle (2-Door)
006 W-653-PA1 Willys 1953 675 Aero Falcon 2 Door 1953 Willys Aero Falcon (2-Door)
006 W-653-PB1 Willys 1953 675 Aero Falcon 4 Door 1953 Willys Aero Falcon (4-Door)
006 W-454-KB1 Willys 1954 475 B PC Lark Deluxe 4 Door 1954 Willys B PC Lark Deluxe (4-Door)
006 W-654-KA2 Willys 1954 675 B PC Lark Deluxe 2 Door 1954 Willys B PC Lark Deluxe (2-Door)
006 W-654-KA3 Willys 1954 685 B Lark Deluxe 2 Door 1954 Willys B Lark Deluxe (2-Door)
006 W-654-KA3S Willys 1954 685 B Lark Deluxe Special 2 Door 1954 Willys B Lark Deluxe (2-Door) Special
006 W-654-KB2 Willys 1954 675 B PC Lark Deluxe 4 Door 1954 Willys B PC Lark Deluxe (4-Door)
006 W-654-KB3 Willys 1954 685 B PC Lark Deluxe 4 Door 1954 Willys B PC Lark Deluxe (4-Door)
006 W-654-KB3S Willys 1954 685 B PC Lark Deluxe Spec 4 Door 1954 Willys B PC Lark Deluxe (4-Door) Special
006 W-654-MA1 Willys 1954 6-226 PC Ace Deluxe 2 Door 1954 PC Ace Deluxe (2-Door)
006 W-654-MA2 Willys 1954 685 B Ace Deluxe 2 Door 1954 B Ace Deluxe (2-Door)
006 W-654-MA2S Willys 1954 685 B Ace Deluxe Special 2 Door 1954 B Ace Deluxe (2-Door) Special
006 W-654-MB1 Willys 1954 6-266 PC Ace Deluxe 4 Door 1954 PC Ace Deluxe (4-Door)
006 W-654-MB2 Willys 1954 685 B PC Ace Deluxe 4 Door 1954 B PC Ace Deluxe (4-Door)
006 W-654-MB2S Willys 1954 685 B Ace Deluxe Special 4 Door 1954 B Ace Deluxe (4-Door) Special
006 W-654-MB3 Willys 1954 685 B PC Heavy Duty 4 Door 1954 B PC Heavy Duty (4-Door)
006 W-654-MC1 Willys 1954 6-266 PC Eagle Deluxe HT 2 Door 1954 B PC Eagle Deluxe Hardtop (2-Door)
006 W-654-MC2 Willys 1954 6-266 PC Eagle Custom HT 2 Door 1954 B PC Eagle Custom Hardtop (2-Door)
006 W-654-MC3 Willys 1954 685 B PC Eagle HT 2 Door 1954 B Eagle Deluxe Hardtop (2-Door)
006 W-654-MC3S Willys 1954 685 B Eagle Deluxe HT 2 Door 1954 B Eagle Deluxe Hardtop (2-Door) Special
006 W-52367 Willys 1955 6-266 A PC Custom 4 Door 1955 A PC Custom (4-Door)
006 W-52467 Willys 1955 6-266 A PC Custom 2 Door 1955 A PC Custom (2-Door)
006 W-52567 Willys 1955 6-266 A PC Bermuda 2 Door 1955 A PC Bermuda (2-Door)
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Jim Betts,
Although I am not the person to ask for details on Jeepsters, there were 1949 and 1950 models as well as the 1951's and some were 4 cylinders and some were sixes.
Your list may be more detailed than necessary. Can differences between models be discussed within the year/model data record? Unless we need to break-out 2-door from 4-door, I suggest combining them. Also, in 1954 several cars were available with different engines and became, for example, Eagle, Eagle Deluxe and Eagle Custom. Do these need to be broken out or can the differences be explained with one data record?
Also, Larks were "KA2" in 1952, then "KA1" or "KB1" in 1953, then KB1, KA2, KB2, KA3 or KB3 in 1954 and on top of that, in the 3rd series '54's there were two separate runs. Larks were also 675, not 685 in 1952.
Missing is the 1953 653-RB1 675 heavy duty taxicab; 1954 654-RB2 675 heavy duty and 1954 654-RB3 685 heavy duty. There was no 654-MB3.
You also left out a few models in 1954 and 1955. Check out the production figure list on the Willys Aero website listed below my name for references, especially when it comes to Deluxe or Custom in the model name. Any models with a 5000 number serial range in 1954 did not have a "Deluxe" or "Custom" in the model name or as chrome script on the car. The 1954 break-out on the list came from a specific factory document showing high serial numbers for all 1954 models.
Also "PC" just stood for "passenger car" as opposed to the Jeep or commercial line.
Rather than bore the club with all this minutiae, we can probably fix all this in a few emails. Thanx for all you've done, all you keep doing and all you will do in the future. Excellent!
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You are the Willys / Aero Expert ... my knowledge is minimal in how to categorize them. Setting the models at a level identifiable from the data plates makes sense to me. What does a restorer need to know about the car to bring it back to show room. What should a judge look for ... has it been restored properly? At what level are production numbers and original features known? Let me know where you wish to set the model break down at. Maybe Jack has some input as to what level made sense for V5 of the Handbook as I do believe the Aeros are included.
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Please read the WILLYS IDENTIFICATION TAG item in Handbook Version 4.0. The information was taken from various Willys-Overland and Willys Motors parts books.
As for the Carolinas, over the years (prior to now) things were changed by various owners for their own personal reasons. Using the Carolina Parts List Supplement (part of Version 5.0), the 1952-53 Kaiser car Parts List Supplement to the 1951 Kaiser Illustrated Parts List (that supplement is also part of Version 5.0) and the 1951 book for anything not listed is the best we will probably ever get...forget the SME unless they have factory-issued documents identifying the M codes for the specific serial-numbered cars and what the codes refer to. Anything else is conjecture that the club needs to either accept or reject.
The mamagement of the club had the chance to capture all this factory information--rivaling what the Studebaker people saved down in South Bend--before AMC brought the old Willys office building down on Cove Blvd in Toledo in the early 1970's; according to John Conde before he died, it seemed the old KFOC either could not be bothered or could not get their act together in time. Some older stuff was saved by people in the Willys-Knight Registry so I know the offer was made to car clubs affiliated with Willys or Kaiser-built vehicles.
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I have been in touch with John Nikodym from the WOKR about the archives. He has recently sent me a tentative inventory of Willys Aero related stuff that they have, with the disclaimer that it may be incomplete as he goes thru more stuff in the archives. I am going thru his list as I get time to check for anything I do not have and anything they do not have.
Coincidentally, John is also involved with Velie automobiles, in which I have an interest, my grandfather had one, possibly his first car. It was a 1920-22 Model 48.
P.S. Jack - on the next edition of the Handbook, please number the pages and put headings on them. I printed several "chapters" and they fell off my printer in a pile and I'm not sure which goes with which chapter and in what order. Thanx.