Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Henry J & Allstate Forum => Topic started by: msass on August 07, 2013, 10:35:50 AM
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New to the forum. Seems like a great place. I'm having some issues with my electrical system. The generator was bad so I replaced that, also replaced the regulator. The first time I drove it everything seemed great, then on the return trip home the amp light came on again. Once it is started it runs great. Any ideas as to what might be causing that light to stay on? Bad wiring?
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There are a number of possibilities as noted in the factory Shop Manual for the car. Generally, the GEN light actually goes on if current drops below a certain point. It is not unusual for the light to flicker or go on at idle depending on idle speed. This is listed in owner manual as well as the shop book.
Critical factors here are Voltage Regulator condition and settings and wiring. 6 volt systems take a lot more current than 12 volt and are more sensitive to corrosion, general deterioration and even tightness of contacts. All these things happen as a normal result of aging and how the car was previously stored and used.
Also, do you have the Auto-Lite or Delco-Remy electrical system? I assumed you replaced your bad generator with another of same brand.
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Just to echo, it is typical for the AMP light to be on at idle, especially with the Autolite equipped cars and especially at night if you have the lights on. If the light is only on at idle, you're likely OK but if it comes on and stays on while driving then yes, check the wires/terminals for corrosion. I've also seen bad regulators out of the box, especially new ones. I had one that was putting out 9 volts! If you have a meter, check it and see what it is putting out.
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Regulators are adjusted at the factory under ideal conditions,thats all they can do. When you put them on a car with old wiring,corroded connections,or a sulphated battery they can be way off. Not to say this is the only thing that could be wrong, but a possability.
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One other thing we should mention just in case... I don't know if you're aware but KF cars were all originally Positive Ground. If you hook the battery up the other way and don't repolarize the regulator that may cause problems. Having the battery connected as Neg ground won't cause any immediate issues, however, over time the regulator can burn up if it is not properly polarized. You may know this but I am stating it so it is not a case of overlooking the obvious.
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It stays on when I am driving it, it will go off if I rev it up at idle. Is it possible the regulator isn't quite set correctly and I'm just not quite getting enough volts during idle or normal driving? It is putting out just over 6 volts. I have everything as positive ground. Thanks for the advice. I will keep working on it.
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Read this through a couple of times.
http://www.stinsonclub.org/PublicTech/YahooGroup/DC%20generator%20theory.pdf
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Is it possible that the light would be on if my battery is just really bad?
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Yes. How old is your 6 volt battery?
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Is the belt tight? What you describe is a symptom of a loose fan belt.
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Check the diagnostic in the factory service manual and read the material in the ELECTRICAL section on the charging system. If you don't have a factory service manual for your car, you should get one ASAP as a service tool, along with the parts book. The service manual that's best covers 1951-53 HJ and will also work just fine on 1954 models. The Parts Book that's best for any year HJ is the 1951 green cover illustrated book with the 1952-53 supplement (which also covers 1954 except for hood ornament plastics).
Club members will get a scan copy of the supplement in KFOCI HANDBOOK Version 5.0 when it comes out later this year as a QUARTERLY issue. It is available to members getting publications (sorry, Associate Members don't get publications) and is not sold by the club to non-members, or at least that's what was done with Version 4.0. It goes out to new members with their New Member Packet.
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Belt is tight and the battery is only a couple years old, but it has been charged up and run down many times while trying to figure all of this out. Also wondering if I need different battery cables. 1 gauge?
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The original cables were zero gauge to the starter and a braided unit to ground.
Two good videos that explain how to test a generator and a voltage regulator. Both deal with 12V MGs, but the concept is the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noK-oZMb8i8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSJxCNLgL2w
Good article that explains some in-car testing that can be done -> http://www.vintagejeepparts.com/PDFs/INSTRUCTIONS%20FOR%20INSTALLING%20VOLTAGE%20REGULATORS.pdf
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You may want to retrace the wires from the generator to the regulator. I once got the field and ground wires swapped by mistake. This results in the field being grounded all the time so no regulation takes place. It will put out more voltage than required and the light will come on as you accellerate. This did wreck my battery as it was over charging. The old wires that are faded are easy to get mixed up.
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Wires are the next step. I've driven it after charging the battery and if the RPMs are high enough the light goes off. As long as I stay on the gas even a little bit the light is off, but as soon as I take my foot off the gas it immediately comes back on until the RPMs get high again. Does that help anyone at all?
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I had the same problem with my '51 Henry J.
I live in a small town in Indiana and my close friend has a starter/alternator shop, and has much experience working on 6 volt systems in a lot of old tractors. He rebuilt my starter and my generator and I had a problem with the light not going out accept during high revs. I have an autollite system, we put in a new regulator and took it to his shop. He ajusted the regulator and it was fine.
This was three years ago and it has been ever since.
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I was thinking too that you may want to verify your car has the correct generator and regulator on it. I don't believe you mentioned the year but if the J is a '51 or a '52 Vagabond, it will have Autolite equipment. If it's a '52-'54 Corsair or Corsair Deluxe, it will have Delco-Remy (there were a very few '52 Corsairs that had Autolite, the serial number range is listed in the factory parts book but it's a very low number).
The Autolite numbers are:
Generator - GDZ-6001E
Regulator - VRP-6001A
Delco-Remy numbers are:
Generator - 1102789
Regulator - 1118731
Check the numbers on them and see.
My '52 Vagabond had a similar problem when I first got it. I was going to install new brushes in the generator to see if that would help and when I removed the generator that's when I found that a previous owner had installed a Hudson generator on it. Electrically the specs were the same but the Hudson unit has a smaller diameter pulley on it so it spun too fast, hence boiling the battery and burning up regulators so be sure you have the correct numbers on yours.
It's easy to forget that some of these cars were restored in the 70s and 80s when we didn't have the internet or forums such as this to find parts and information so you had to make due with what you could find. The previous owner needed a 6 volt generator, found a Hudson unit and installed it. Probably worked fine for a while.
Otherwise, I agree with porsche1914, it probably needs an adjustment.
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It was hard to read, but I think it is Autolite GGW-6001-S1. My dad and I were wondering if maybe the pulley wasn't the correct size. Any idea where I can check if this generator is correct?
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I got the information from 1955 Motor's Auto Repair Manual. It lists the Autolite GGW-6001x generators as being used on Chrysler products and a few Packard cars.
The specs for the GGW-6001 are:
Amps = 45 @ 2125 RPM
The specs for the GZD-6001 (which the HJ used originally) are:
Amps = 35 @ 2250 RPM
so the GGW unit is putting out more amps per RPM which could very well by your issue.
That being said, you still may be able to get it in range by adjusting the regulator.
The regulator used with the GGW unit was a VRP-6004A which is 6.5 volts/45 amps
The regulator used with the GZD unit was a VRP-6001A which is 6.5 volts/35 amps.
I think the modern replacement for Henry J Autolite is a NAPA ECH VR25
their modern replacement for the Chrysler is NAPA ECH VR27 so you may also want to try a this one in your car. The wiring should be able to handle it if the Amps go up a bit.
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Thanks for the great information. So will my GGW generator work? I can't seem to find any numbers on the regulator at all. But if I get the correct regulator you think that will solve my problems?
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I think if you have correct regulator, assuming you can physically mount it in the car, it should work. Edgar Kaiser's Henry J has a big Autolite generator on it from a '49 Chrysler - big generator. It has the correct Autolite reg with it and it works fine... even better actually as the AMP light never comes on in that car. If you have the correct generator / regulator combination and the output does not exceed the ratings on any of the electrical equipment you should be OK if it's adjusted properly - see shop manual for that. The GZD was likely used in the J to cut cost as many items were. The GWW puts out more amps so it would cost more originally. The concern would be can the original Henry J wiring handle it and based on the fact that Edgar's car handles a 45 amp generator I'd say it can.
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Thanks again. I'll have to see if I can figure out what kind of regulator I have. If I can't maybe I'll just buy a new one. The VR 27 is what I want then, correct?
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Correct. The VR27 is used with that generator. Again, it may require adjustment.
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Thanks again. I figured out I have a GDR6003 regulator. I think it is intended for tractors. Should this work?
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I can't find anything in the Motors Manual that references a GDR6003. I searched for one on ebay and this came up -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-GENERATOR-REGULATOR-TWO-UNIT-A-CIRCUIT-POS-GROUND-/130597129107?hash=item1e68320b93&vxp=mtr
The add says the regulator is for a Delco Remy system so if this is the regulator you have -
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/NEW-GENERATOR-REGULATOR-TWO-UNIT-A-CIRCUIT-POS-GROUND-/00/s/NDgwWDY0MA==/$(KGrHqJ,!lgE5uhBZRtpBOtV5-gCZw~~60_12.JPG)
then it is definitely not correct for the generator you have.
If the one you have is for a tractor etc. then it makes sense why it's not listed in the Motor's Manual as that is only for passenger cars. All the vehicles listed for it in the ebay ad are tractors/trucks etc.
It's starting to look like a new regulator is what you need and the VR 27 is the one you want.
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That looks like what I have. I ordered a VR27. Hopefully that solves the problem. If it doesn't I really don't know anymore.
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I can't tell what the order of the terminals is on the one you have but Delco and Autolite are different so here's a picture of what it should be -
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1cf35b3127ccefec8d1764bcc00000040O01SatmLdmyB7efAA/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00203070160520111115052015943.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
The terminals are ARM FLD BAT
There are two wires together that go to ARM (Armature) and they are identified as going in the direction of the generator / starter where they enter the harness.
There is one, thin wire which goes to FLD (Field) terminal.
There are three that go to the BAT (Battery) terminal. Two are together and go in the direction of the firewall where it enters the harness and one brown one which goes in the direction of the generator / starter where it enters the harness. These three will be thick heavy wires as will the two the go to ARM.
There is a single ground wire which goes to the top mounting screw on the regulator - that one ties the generator to ground.
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Thanks! I do have the wiring diagram, but it is nice to see it too. I also discovered last night that I can start it by simply pushing the button, I don't even need the key, so obviously something isn't wired correctly there either. Also the light just randomly went off for a couple miles while driving last night.
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Does the car actually start or does the engine just turn over (starter runs) when pushing the button? Because pushing the button will run the starter whether the key is in the on position or not. That's the way they are. You do need to switch the key on in order for it to actually start and run though.
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You are correct. I messed that one up. Sorry. Still trying to learn all of this stuff.
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Got the correct regulator installed and rewired a few of the older possibly bad wires and now the light goes off and it is charging. Crossing my fingers that I've finally figured it out.....with a lot of help of course. Thanks everyone who posted on this!