Kaiser Frazer Owners Club Forum
General Category => Frazer Forum => Topic started by: joefrazer on November 04, 2009, 07:37:43 PM
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I am working with the KFOCI manufacturing fund to gauge interest in tail light lenses for the 1951 Frazer. We may begin the process of having new production made but wanted to see just how many folks would be interested in them. I do not have a firm cost but I can tell you that they probably will not retail for less than $100 each. If you think you'd be interested, post a reply. There is NO obligation to buy, I'm just after a headcount.
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How about the right lower tail light lens for the 54 Kaiser?
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I would be interested if kept at below $150 each. I need some but $600/pair or even $500/pair like in the latest newsletter is just too much for plastic lenses. IF the price were reasonable, I might even be interested in more than one set.
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It would be nice to have some more of those '51 Frazer grille emblems which apparently the supply was exhausted.
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I saw the $500 price tag in the newsletter and that seemed high to me. I don't have a '51 Frazer, but I hope enough people want them that they are reproduced. I think whenever the club (or anybody else) has a chance to reproduce something to keep our cars on the road that is a good thing. Back when they did the sterlite steering wheels I bought one just because I knew I would need it one day. I still haven't used it, but it's there when I need it.
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To keep these fine cars on the road, both the '51 Frazer as well as the '54 Kaiser tallights need to be reproduced.
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YES! and also the '51 Frazer grille emblems.
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Does anyone know what the process is if the manufacturing fund undertook a project like this? It seems like they would get a lot of takers.
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I am working with the manufacturing fund to get this project moving. We've been sourcing a supplier for a while now and have someone who can do the job. He's made several prototype lenses for our approval and they look great...I've seen them. Now, we're working on a price per unit and hope to have that firmed up by the new year (only a few weeks away...I better get my Christmas shopping done!).
As for 51F grille emblems, those came from another supplier and I'm not aware of another run being contemplated. I guess we'll have to put our feelers out to see.
And, 54K right tail light lenses, I don't know of any plans to do them any time soon, at least not by the fund.
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The '51 lenses will be a good start. Keep us posted. As for the grille emblem, a quick and cheap interim fix might be if someone can produce a solid decal from a quality photograph that could go onto the current piece which would at least help those who have the basic emblem but it's just all faded and decayed.
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I would be interested in having two extras also
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RE: 51 F grille emblem
The late Herb Long was responsible for having the repro done. As I recall he had 50 made because he wanted one (it's on the Vagabond I bought from him before he passed). He donated some of the leftovers to the manufacturing fund I think and they are long gone. Ther is some small flaw in the repro but I can't recall just what it was. They looked nice.
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As I recall, there is an almost undetectible flaw that was supposed to be there to tell the reproductions apart from any true NOS factory originals around. It was a question of what you could (eventually) sell one of these for (original 1950 production vs. the reproduction).
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hello.
I am of agreement to have some also because if of origin miss myself me I could not leave with my voiture.
for a price correct
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For those interested, I think we are going to be moving forward with the project. I've heard from about 2 dozen folks who need them and that's enough to at least have an initial batch run. I'm still working with the vendor on pricing...nothing's cheap these days...so I don't have a firm number yet.
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Good news! Thanks Joe. Eagerly await results. I think I just got some incentive to head down to the cold garage on this wet day and do some work on the '51.
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Keep us posted. I just saw a used set with bezels that need rechrome (add another $250+ and wait of six + months) go for $350 on the ebay!
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That used set on ebay brought $350 so I am sure new ones would be a welcome product.
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The only thing to remember is that the tooling to make the mold for plastic will probably run in excess of 40-60K, maybe even more. It's a one time charge that would produce a number of good parts runs. The plastic and finishing would be very little, but I have no doubt that whoever does the project would have to try and recoup the tooling cost on the first run. I would be VERY interested to see the projected costing on this project. I've been in the die casting business for over 20 years now and it's about the same as injection moulded plastic except for temp and pressure characteristics.
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Wonder if anyone produces or can produce a glass lens and what the cost would be for it.
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Were any originally glass or were they all plastic?
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For the 1949 model year, Frazer lenses switched from glass to plastic; 1949-50 Kaiser lenses (K-F factory part) were glass, but I seem to recall an aftermarket company producing them in plastic. For 1951, Kaiser went with plastic.
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Good to know. I've only owned two (53) Kaisers and they are plastic. I also have a set of '54 lenses which are plastic too, so I didn't know there had been some glass used.
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Count me in for any reproduction 51F taillight lenses or emblems. I have an NOS pair of lenses but they came from two different places and were completely different colors when illuminated. I shelved the NOS lenses and used decent original lenses on my convertible after I restored them by removing the crazing in the plastic.
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And how did you remove the crazing? I have an unbroken pair on my '51 Vagabond, but they are crazed.
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Purchase several quarts of straight 30W motor oil. Submerge (ie, weigh down) the lenses in the oil inside a sealed container (I use a 5 gal. tar bucket) and walk away for about three months. When you take them out they look practically NOS. Somehow the old plastic pulls all the oil into the crazing and makes it almost dissappear. Some people at the '07 national asked where I got the NOS lenses and were shocked when I told them they were old originals. In noon sun they could not tell. This whole process assumes your lenses have decent pigmentation. I have used this trick on red plastic lenses from several vintage cars with excellent results.
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Thanks much - Will try this tonight.
Maybe the car will be (almost) ready when I take the lenses out of the oil! ;-)
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I'm a plastic injection mold maker by trade. So just a quick note on plastics and vinyls, they are all "petroleum based" products. Through heat, age, UV rays etc. they dry out, get brittle and crack. Bathing them in oil stablizes the "dry" plastic and "brings them back to life" so to speak. It's like putting chapstick on dry lips if that makes more sense. :)
Products like armorall are petroleum based products with UV blockers added. It works on the same principle.
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Any updates on the status of the '51 Frazer taillights?
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As a matter of fact yes...I have a note going in this month's KF bulletin asking for folks who may be interested in a pair of lenses. Once I have an idea as to the number of lenses, we'll be working with the vendor on firmer pricing. So...we're getting closer!
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As long as the price is not ridiculous, I'll be buying a pair (maybe 2)
I'd also like to request the club to do another run of steering wheels that will fit a '51 Frazer and a '51 Frazer plastic front emblem.
I understand the club has made runs of both in the past.
The fact that they are all gone should confirm that there is interest in these items.
John
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The club has never made steering wheels for the 51 F. There was a run of wheels for the 51-53 Kaisers. Cost is a big factor because of the requirement of making a proper mold for casting the wheels. As I understand it the club still has the mold for the 51-53 Kaisers but would have to start from scratch on the 51 F. I suspect the only way such a project could be undertaken is if enough people actually pre-paid to make it economically possible. The front emblems were contracted for by the late Herb Long. He donated his remaining supply at some point to the manufacturing fund.
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Indeed, front emblems are very much needed. And I would like to get at least one set of the T/L lenses, and depending upon the cost, additional sets.
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Ben-Tex - thanks for the information. I was unaware that the sterring wheels were only for '51 to '53 Kaisers. I guess I'll just have to repair mine as well as I can. I am NOT paying the 1000.00 price I was quoted to restore mine!
So - T/L lenses and hopefully a medalion can be had at some point...
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i´m intressed in new glas to frazer 1951.
when to you think you are gona start selling?
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Is there any more information about the tail lights??? and when they may be available???
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Been awhile. What's the latest on the '51 lenses?
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Update...I will be speaking with the manufacturing fund manager towards the end of the month and hope to have a decision made at that time. So far, I've only had about 10 folks say they'd be interested in a pair of lenses, I really need a commitment from more like 20 in order to make this a viable project. So, if you know someone with a 51F who's lenses are marginal, impress upon them the need to get involved. The club makes little to nothing on the sale of manufacturing fund parts so any unsold inventory can be a real liability.
Stay tuned!
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Like so many projects of this type within the club, it is a Catch-22 situation. People won't commit until they know price and the Manufacturing Fund has no info on price until it knows how many sets it is likely to pre-sell to help establish a run price.
Remember also that almost all of the actual cost of the project is to create the injection moulding tooling needed to make the part. This can easily run into many, many thousands of dollars. While the tooling will last, what about the demand. In theory, everyone owning a 1951 Frazer should have at least 2 spare sets on hand in case of an accident at a show or while driving/hauling.
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Well, I have four '51 Frazers, one with excellent lenses, one with one lense good, and then the other two 4-doot hatdtops in work, so if price is right potential for at least two sets. Guess I just have a real hard time understanding the cost to create moldings and whatever for plastic lenses. If lenses are not made available and reasonably priced, who would want to restore a '51 or even buy one with damaged lenses. So it would appear the original moldings were not retained when these things were reproduced before and that's a shame. Just keep us posted. I really wouldn't want to have to go with '56 Clipper Custom or '59 Caddy taillights.
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Are the lenses different for the '51 Frazer and Aero Willys? They look similar, but mounted differently.
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Willys and Frazer tail lights are a physically different size and have different mounting points.
Some companies saved molds and tooling for parts they made (at the auction of Doehler-Jarvis, for example, they still had tooling to make some of the different Packard grilles from the 1950's), but most others asked the car companies for disposition (save or scrap) & typically the car companies indicated scrap (to save on storage costs) unless they felt there would be significant service parts orders (like the 1957 Chevy grille bars...we were still using the last remaining set of tooling from GM Parts and Service when I was at Ken-Dec in KY). Unless the tooling prints are still around (not in the case of the 1951 Frazer lenses, as far as I know) you would have to take measurements off a perfect set of originals. Each curve, contour and detail feature would have to be accurately reproduced. This takes time and costs money to do it right. Forget about going to China...all the decent places have enough work to keep them going for years.
Would JOE FRAZER call me...I have an idea that may be worth checking out to lower the cost on plastic parts projects.
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i´m intressting in at least 3 set of taillights for frazer 1951 if it´s good quality´.
// jonas
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Some people have asked about the cost of tooling on these things. I have over 20 years experience in die casting (same as injection molding only we use metal instead of plastic) and can help answer that ...
Because of the temperature of the material and the pressure used to shove the material into the mold (we are talking hundreds of tons) you can't use just any material here. The material you have to use to make tail lights is not like the cheap junk plastic used in things like the dinasour making units you see at fun parks. Also, you have a lot more detail (fine lines, screw posts, etc) than the cheap things can handle. Additionally, these days, you have to conform to Department of Transportation regulations for reflectiveness, brightness, etc, that you did not have to meet when our cars were new. All this requires a lot of almost microscopic detail when cutting tooling from hardened steel and testing (with the appropriate documentation) to show the parts meet spec.
Also, you are actually talking 4 molds; two molds for each side (LH and RH). In the case of the tail light, you probably would be talking the base and the outside. The two halves have to be constructed so they consistently fit EXACTLY perfect (or very, very close to it) with various types of overflow passages that are used to pull the molding material (in this case plastic) through past the farthest points away from where the material comes into the mold. The molds have to also be designed to fit specific types of machines (the equipment that will run it) so the various fittings match up and properly work.
I suggest that anyone interested contact a tool and die shop in their area and ask about prices to see for yourself. Also, remember that you probably won't sell any more than 100-120 sets and there are other expenses connected with running these things.
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That makes the current price of $500 to $600 for a NOS pair look like a bargain. You had better buy them when you see them!
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Is anyone currently selling NOS taillight lenses for the 51F? I have one set of NOS lenses I paid $300 for many, many years ago from Fred Walker. Sometimes I just set them on my dresser and stare at them.
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Your $300.00 lenses are probably worth $500.00 today. Better put them in your bank vault!
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Is there any headway on new lenses? What is the critical number of pre-orders to justify making them, and at what price?
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No movement on the lenses. The fellow who was going to do them could not guarantee the quantity/price we wanted so we're back to square one. That, and demand seems to have faded.
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I'm still interested. I may have to try to make my own!
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How about out of glass.....maybe a glass blower? They don't have to be perfect, just functional.
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In order to be properly functional they have to be duplicates of the original in terms of detail; the little ridges, curvature, etc were engineered for the lights to function properly. Getting the 1951 Frazer lights to work properly even required incorporating a Fresnel lens to get the proper brilliance.
The problem is tooling cost for the mold. If there was a way to pre-sell 300-500 sets, the cost per pair (l and r) might be in the realm of affordable.
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A sad story about the previous owner of that gray '51 Frazer that my dad had for awhile; The car was converted to 12V and the person he purchased it from told us how once the brake light switch got stuck on it, causing the brake lights to stay on, unbeknownst to him. They were on all night and into the next day before he noticed a smell from his garage. He went out there and noticed the additional heat produced by the 12 volt bulbs had melted his tail light lenses! Ouch! He did find three NOS lenses (back in the 80s) and I believe they are the same for L and R. That would be tough to do today.
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Sounds like as good a reason as any not to convert to 12 volt!
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Sounds like as good a reason as any not to convert to 12 volt!
Amen to that. Back to the lenses, has anyone done the calculations to determine how much they would cost if we manufactured, say, 100 pairs, or 200 pairs, 300 pairs, etc.? I think most people would not have any problem paying $300 for a pair. This whole thread highlights the problems K-F (and most independent make enthusiasts) deal with. I just helped my Dad do a 100% bone stock restoration on a '55 Chevy 210 hardtop. Every single piece of that car is reproduced in a very high quality and will show up on your doorstep in two days.
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Their are thousands of '55 Chevys being restored and maybe a hundred Kaiser's and Frazer's of all kinds so the numbers are just not there to make expensive parts for our cars if there is a small chance of recouping the sellers investment. You can buy many different parts for many old cars like Porsche, Ford Model T's and A's and V-8's because there is a big demand. I doubt if you could sell five sets of '51 Frazer tail lights at $300.00 each. No one wants to invest thousands of dollars and have little return. Ford V-8's are very popular old cars to restore but I was recently talking to Bob Drake who makes many parts for them and he told me that if it was not for the street rodders he could not continue manufacturing new parts as there is not that much demand from restorers. You can buy complete bodies and frames for many of the early Fords and now Bob Drake is even making a complete 1940 Ford coupe to satisfy the demand from people who want one. The complete body, fenders, hood, deck lid and frame etc sells for $30,000 and you need to provide your own drive train, upholstery and trim parts. That would put a completed car in the $80,000 range if you do most of the labor yourself. Rarity does not make a car valuable and our Kaiser's and Frazer's although very popular with us just will not bring enough money to justify completely restoring one at todays restoration costs. Buy a good one to start with! Many of our cars have trim parts that are getting very hard to find.
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$300 a pair would be "reasonable" but not $600 for a chunk of plastic. Yep, you can find ANYTHING for a Chevy. But there should be somewhere in between as other repro lenses are out there at reasonable prices for Packards (not just the '56 Clipper that everyone uses for streetrods, but the two-years only Clippers, the '55-56 seniors), the one-year only 1958 Edsel, the one-year only '54 Hudson, Studebakers, Nashes, et. al. I'd settle for a lens w/o bottom screw holes and I'd emblem seal it on the car. no big deal.
Trim parts indeed! How about molding clips? Hundreds, maybe thousands out there but ever try to find the 28 clips that hold the '51 Frazer hardtop external rear window moldings on? The big name brands suppliers don't have them. I finally found a place up in Ohio that had some I could modify to use, but I had to cut and file all 28 of them down to fit.
And going on FOUR years now trying to find a left front vent window frame for the '51 hardtop. The inside and outside door moldings in ANY condition forget about it based on a four year search for those as well. Sad thing about the vent window frame is I'm fairly certain some exist but to date no one has come back and replied they have it or will go look for it.
I would NEVER again undertake to restore a '51 Frazer or any other rare model car based on what I've learned the hard way over the last four years. I'll even throw in the '55 Studebaker in that category. Too hard to find parts.